Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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VeeDubTDI

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But they do have capital investment in the power you generate. Your power flows over their lines and through their transformers and substations. Their equipment supports the power you consume as well as the power that you produce. It makes sense that they pay you for the energy you produce. It makes just as much sense that you pay them for the distribution infrastructure that supports the energy you produce. IMO your utility’s method of metering your electricity is very fair.
 

meerschm

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it also looks like they are splitting the difference with you on that green electric fee.

the green fee per KWH is around $0.016.
 

Oilerlord

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But they do have capital investment in the power you generate. Your power flows over their lines and through their transformers and substations. Their equipment supports the power you consume as well as the power that you produce. It makes sense that they pay you for the energy you produce. It makes just as much sense that you pay them for the distribution infrastructure that supports the energy you produce. IMO your utility’s method of metering your electricity is very fair.
I get that the grid requires maintenance, and there is a cost to that. I have no issue paying transmission & distribution fees. I'd just like to see a true net-metered bill. For example, on a billing cycle where I consumed 500 kWh, and exported 400 kWh, I'd like to be billed for 100 kWh + fees. It's a standard practice in several US states, and one that I'd like to see in Alberta.

There is a reason there is a microscopic amount of rooftop solar in Alberta. The microgeneration regulation act is 10 years old, and was written to protect the utility - not to encourage the average Albertan to add clean, renewable energy to the grid.

Interesting that someone who paid 100% of the cost of his solar installation - without government incentives or subsidies is getting a rough ride from those that have absolutely no issue with EV incentives, subsidies, a build-out of taxpayer funded charging stations, and not having to pay road taxes in some states.
 
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Oilerlord

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it also looks like they are splitting the difference with you on that green electric fee.

the green fee per KWH is around $0.016.
The extra kWh's I generate is resold by the utility to my neighbors. It's possible one or more of them are paying $15 per month to "green" their power - specifically, by purchasing part of the green energy they consume from my rooftop solar.

On the bill I posted, please show me the green rebate line item. I must have missed it.
 

meerschm

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you said you are paid $0.01 per kwh over what it would cost the utility to generate.

I am just calling this half the fee they charge for green power. (it is an up-to vs per kwh, so this is a bit of a stretch.)



I am a big fan of incentivizing solar generation, and buyback of excess power is a good thing. but electricity is useful where it is used. and most metering is close to the use end. in every case, there are losses and expenses in between.

it really is nice where this generation is given a premium, but the details and transitions are going to be challenging to all parties. it would be "fair" if the real time value could be captured, so you could decide to schedule pre-sell back loads to optimize your return on investment.

(apply the same time of day, cost of electricity decisions as some folks with only consumption time of day metering have done.)
 

meerschm

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what would be really "fair" is to pay every producer on a consistent scale. but this will be a sliding scale based on volume, and on production/demand match. (this includes not only time based match, but proximity and the impact of transmission losses.)

the same big data science that gives us uber sliding ride pricing, and private road tolls with sliding rates based on traffic, will eventually make it to the utility distribution of electric power. these are coming, and the in between will look ancient and set in brittle concrete in a few years as we look back.
 

turbobrick240

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Tesla pickup in the works

A Tesla pickup could be coming in a couple of years. It won't be the behemoth that Musk jokingly displayed an image of at the semi reveal either. More likely it was the truck in the bed of the giant. He says it will probably be slightly larger than a F150, with some game changing new feature. Any guesses what that game changing feature might be?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/12/26/elon-musk-asked-his-twitter-followers-for-tesla-feedback--heres-what-they-said.html
 
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CraziFuzzy

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I get that the grid requires maintenance, and there is a cost to that. I have no issue paying transmission & distribution fees. I'd just like to see a true net-metered bill. For example, on a billing cycle where I consumed 500 kWh, and exported 400 kWh, I'd like to be billed for 100 kWh + fees. It's a standard practice in several US states, and one that I'd like to see in Alberta.

There is a reason there is a microscopic amount of rooftop solar in Alberta. The microgeneration regulation act is 10 years old, and was written to protect the utility - not to encourage the average Albertan to add clean, renewable energy to the grid.

Interesting that someone who paid 100% of the cost of his solar installation - without government incentives or subsidies is getting a rough ride from those that have absolutely no issue with EV incentives, subsidies, a build-out of taxpayer funded charging stations, and not having to pay road taxes in some states.
Except most do not pay a specific price per kWh. Electric bills with or without self generation haven't been that simple as long as I've been alive. Between tiered pricing, time of use pricing, separation of generation and distribution fees, plus metering and administrative fees, and taxes, the billing is just not that simple.

Here in So Cal (can't speak for Alberta), for a standard residential service, there is a set distribution fee per kWh. This is paid for every kWh that the user imports, and goes to the utility to maintain the grid. There is also a generation fee per kWh that goes to the power plant. This is also paid for every kWh that the user imports.

When I export power, I am given the kWh credits back for both the generation AND the distribution fees. This is where the problem is, and I can see this practice going away soon. The problem being, when I push a kWh onto the grid, the utility sells that kWh to someone else. That makes sense as to why the generation value comes back to me in the form of credit. However, the utility gets $0 for the load that kWh puts on the grid, which normally is paid for by the user of the energy via the distribution charge, but since I am also getting credited for that value as well, it is offsetting it, and the utility is left without it. The distribution charge for a given kWh should be received BY the utility that maintains the distribution equipment between generator and consumer - I think that is easy to understand - but the system you are looking to be implemented does not do that, and ends up penalizing the utility for every exported PV kWh. This goes onto their ledgers as an expense, and as such, results in higher distribution fees for everyone.

The most 'fair' solution is to credit the generator for the energy value, which varies based on time of use and ideally grid demand, and consumers of the energy pay that same generation price, and also pay for the distribution to get it.
 

turbocharged798

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I took a tour at our local power distribution company and they were saying how destructive grid tie solar is to the grid. The money that they pay back to the user is a loss for them.
 

meerschm

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"destructive" is them whining.

it presents more challenges, and requires new technology to manage. welcome to the 21st century.


in addition to variable consumers, they get variable generators.

as distributed solar increases, there will have to be storage developed and deployed, or additional utility-controlled load control.

(example is utility-controlled disconnect of Air Conditioning compressors. when the big cloud goes over, and solar output drops, the utility decreases the duty cycle of controlled Air conditioners.)
 

El Dobro

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what would be really "fair" is to pay every producer on a consistent scale. but this will be a sliding scale based on volume, and on production/demand match. (this includes not only time based match, but proximity and the impact of transmission losses.)
the same big data science that gives us uber sliding ride pricing, and private road tolls with sliding rates based on traffic, will eventually make it to the utility distribution of electric power. these are coming, and the in between will look ancient and set in brittle concrete in a few years as we look back.
For a P/U, I think I would go with a Workhorse first.
http://workhorse.com/pickup/
 

Oilerlord

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When I export power, I am given the kWh credits back for both the generation AND the distribution fees. This is where the problem is, and I can see this practice going away soon. The problem being, when I push a kWh onto the grid, the utility sells that kWh to someone else. That makes sense as to why the generation value comes back to me in the form of credit. However, the utility gets $0 for the load that kWh puts on the grid, which normally is paid for by the user of the energy via the distribution charge, but since I am also getting credited for that value as well, it is offsetting it, and the utility is left without it. The distribution charge for a given kWh should be received BY the utility that maintains the distribution equipment between generator and consumer - I think that is easy to understand - but the system you are looking to be implemented does not do that, and ends up penalizing the utility for every exported PV kWh. This goes onto their ledgers as an expense, and as such, results in higher distribution fees for everyone.
The most 'fair' solution is to credit the generator for the energy value, which varies based on time of use and ideally grid demand, and consumers of the energy pay that same generation price, and also pay for the distribution to get it.
Both our transmission & distribution fees are consumption based, and have a set price per kWh. We pay those fees on the buy side, but don't get those fees credited back when we export to the grid (and don't expect to). Simply put, I'd be happy with a bill based on net consumption. Bill me the transmission & distribution fees based on that consumption. Sounds easy to me. Perhaps it isn't 100% "fair" to either side, but it recognizes that the generator has some skin in the game too.

I can see where TOU with solar would unfairly penalize the utility. We have a set price per kWh all day long. Most of my PV faces west, and generates 5 - 7 kW during afternoon peak TOU hours in other municipalities. My buddy in San Diego pays ~39 cents per kWh on peak. I'd be cleaning up during that time. While I'd happily cash those utility cheques - I'd agree that billing model isn't sustainable.
 

turbobrick240

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Yeah, it's hard to complain about getting gouged by the electricity utilities when the rate is less than 10 cents per kw/hr.
 

VeeDubTDI

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For 2018, that price is going up to 50 cents per kWh on peak here in San Diego for residential usage.
At those prices I'd be making every effort possible to self-generate. With prices like that, ROIs on solar, battery, and thermal storage would be very short.
 

john.jackson9213

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At those prices I'd be making every effort possible to self-generate. With prices like that, ROIs on solar, battery, and thermal storage would be very short.
Last time I looked at it the Pay Back was just under 10 years for a 6 or 7KW system. Just about our remaining life expectancy.

My spouse would rather spend the money living 6 months a year in Italy. She views any "big money" spent today on solar as cash she could spend traveling.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Last time I looked at it the Pay Back was just under 10 years for a 6 or 7KW system. Just about our remaining life expectancy.

My spouse would rather spend the money living 6 months a year in Italy. She views any "big money" spent today on solar as cash she could spend traveling.
I think I'll go ahead and agree with Anita. Enjoy it. :)
 

CraziFuzzy

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Both our transmission & distribution fees are consumption based, and have a set price per kWh. We pay those fees on the buy side, but don't get those fees credited back when we export to the grid (and don't expect to). Simply put, I'd be happy with a bill based on net consumption. Bill me the transmission & distribution fees based on that consumption. Sounds easy to me. Perhaps it isn't 100% "fair" to either side, but it recognizes that the generator has some skin in the game too.

I can see where TOU with solar would unfairly penalize the utility. We have a set price per kWh all day long. Most of my PV faces west, and generates 5 - 7 kW during afternoon peak TOU hours in other municipalities. My buddy in San Diego pays ~39 cents per kWh on peak. I'd be cleaning up during that time. While I'd happily cash those utility cheques - I'd agree that billing model isn't sustainable.
I think you're missing a bit of math, because what you are asking for IS to get distribution fees credited for your generation. That is what happens if the distribution fees are based on your 'net consumption'.
 

Oilerlord

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I think you're missing a bit of math, because what you are asking for IS to get distribution fees credited for your generation. That is what happens if the distribution fees are based on your 'net consumption'.
It's a scenario that I think is fair but clearly others do not. Until that happens, I'll sign up for the most expensive price per kWh plan I can find from April - September; then revert back to spot price plan from October - March. That's not my first choice, but so be it.
 

740GLE

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Tidbit of engineering amazingnesss.

We have a Gen 1 Volt the company is leasing as a PR campaign.

It stays plugged in 98% of its life into a Lvl2 charger. If the car isn't driven in say 2+ month, the 12v battery goes flat, car can't be started/moved and must be trickle charged/battery replaced. The Lvl 2 charger only feeds the high voltage battery, GM didn't take into account a trickle charger for the standard 12V battery.

We've had to have the car towed 3-4 times in the past 4 years, ha!
 

Chris

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Tidbit of engineering amazingnesss.

We have a Gen 1 Volt the company is leasing as a PR campaign.

It stays plugged in 98% of its life into a Lvl2 charger. If the car isn't driven in say 2+ month, the 12v battery goes flat, car can't be started/moved and must be trickle charged/battery replaced. The Lvl 2 charger only feeds the high voltage battery, GM didn't take into account a trickle charger for the standard 12V battery.

We've had to have the car towed 3-4 times in the past 4 years, ha!
With MY 2013 and since, the Volt keeps its 12V battery up whenever it's plugged in.
 

El Dobro

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Tidbit of engineering amazingnesss.
We have a Gen 1 Volt the company is leasing as a PR campaign.
It stays plugged in 98% of its life into a Lvl2 charger. If the car isn't driven in say 2+ month, the 12v battery goes flat, car can't be started/moved and must be trickle charged/battery replaced. The Lvl 2 charger only feeds the high voltage battery, GM didn't take into account a trickle charger for the standard 12V battery.
We've had to have the car towed 3-4 times in the past 4 years, ha!
Per the owner's manual.
"Four weeks to 12 months
. Discharge the high voltage
battery until two or three bars
remain on the battery range
indicator (Battery symbol) on the
instrument cluster.
. Do not plug in the high voltage
battery charge cord.
. Remove the black negative (−)
cable from the 12-volt battery
and attach a trickle charger to
the battery terminals or keep the
12-volt battery cables connected
and trickle charge from the
underhood remote positive (+)
and negative (−) terminals. See
Jump Starting on page 10-69 for
the location of these terminals.
{Caution
The vehicle is equipped with an
AGM/VRLA 12-volt battery, which
can be damaged by using the
incorrect type of trickle charger.
An AGM/VRLA-compatible
charger must be used, with the
appropriate setting selected.
Follow the trickle charger
manufacturer instructions".
 

nwdiver

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Tidbit of engineering amazingnesss.

We have a Gen 1 Volt the company is leasing as a PR campaign.

It stays plugged in 98% of its life into a Lvl2 charger. If the car isn't driven in say 2+ month, the 12v battery goes flat, car can't be started/moved and must be trickle charged/battery replaced. The Lvl 2 charger only feeds the high voltage battery, GM didn't take into account a trickle charger for the standard 12V battery.

We've had to have the car towed 3-4 times in the past 4 years, ha!
It's been a bit of a learning curve all around regarding the 12v battery for a lot of EV manufacturers. Pretty sure a dead 12v is the #1 or #2 reason for Tesla drivers getting stranded. I'm on my ~4th. Prior to MY ~2014 the 12v was fed from the main HV relay. For energy conservation if the car was parked the relay was open until the 12v was at ~20% SOC then it would charge the battery. The 12v would often cycle ~5x per day. Obviously lead-acid batteries aren't designed for this kind of duty cycle so they would fail prematurely. It didn't help that Tesla initially didn't use deep cycle batteries....

New cars have a dedicated connection from the 12v to the main pack. From what I've heard this issue has been resolved.
 

CraziFuzzy

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The 12V problem is definitely exasperated on a tesla, with it's insane amount of parasitic electronics on board. The 12V on the 500e, however, can last a couple weeks without being topped off (which happens whenever the HV contactor is closed). The fiat, however, won't close the contactor simply to charge the 12V, so it still can end up dying if the car is left alone for a couple weeks.
 

CraziFuzzy

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Of course, I own enough cars that all my vehicles end up sitting for long periods of time, and I can tell you that at least half of my ICE vehicles have ended up with dead batteries and unable to start after a few weeks of sitting as well. This isn't so much a problem strictly tied to EV's - it's just that it is a problem that SHOULDN'T happen with EV's, due to the ability to charge form the large bank if/when needed.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Tidbit of engineering amazingnesss.

We have a Gen 1 Volt the company is leasing as a PR campaign.

It stays plugged in 98% of its life into a Lvl2 charger. If the car isn't driven in say 2+ month, the 12v battery goes flat, car can't be started/moved and must be trickle charged/battery replaced. The Lvl 2 charger only feeds the high voltage battery, GM didn't take into account a trickle charger for the standard 12V battery.

We've had to have the car towed 3-4 times in the past 4 years, ha!

Not much of a PR campaign if nobody ever drives it. ;)
 
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