Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

[nwdiver]

^^This. Its great for electric water heating, EVs and lighting at night but a total loose for everything else. Our electric company also increases the base charge. Total loose-loose situation.

How much does your base charge go up to? (Looked it up... it's $3......) So you'd start saving money after driving 100 miles. You'd be cutting the cost of fuel by >50%. PLUS all the money you'd save on heating at night in the winter

Then there's always solar... 'Free' electricity during the day. Cheap electricity at night. Can't beat that

Even w/o cheaper electricity... you're talking about a difference of $0.01/mile. I drove a Jetta before I got my Tesla. The maintenance costs of the Jetta between timing belts, oil changes, EGR cooler etc added up to >$0.01/mile...

 

[nwdiver]

Just paid $95.37 for 546KW/hr or 18 cents a KW. You are paying nearly a third of what we are paying.

??? Are you including the $24 base charge in your assessment? You pay that wether you have an EV or not... you're only gonna pay $0.06/kWh MORE...

If you got an EV and used 400kWh your electric bill isn't gonna go up by $72... it's going up by $24. You'll be paying $0.02/mile. Not $0.06/mile. You're doing math wrong.

 

[turbobrick240]

Good catch. It looks like the EV economics are quite favorable for him. I guess that argument is toast.
I think there will always(in the near future at least) be die hard diesel enthusiasts for whom no rationale will justify giving up their diesels. I have Amish neighbors down the road that are quite content with horse and buggy. And they know exactly what to do with the emissions.

 

[turbocharged798]

50 mpg seems a bit optimistic for an overall average efficiency. I'm happy with 38-40 mpg in the winter, and my car is modded for fuel efficiency. Plus it's much easier for me to make my own electricity vs. diesel fuel.

With my new job I have been averaging around 53mpg. Easy peasy with an ALH.

How much does your base charge go up to? (Looked it up... it's $3......) So you'd start saving money after driving 100 miles. You'd be cutting the cost of fuel by >50%. PLUS all the money you'd save on heating at night in the winter

Then there's always solar... 'Free' electricity during the day. Cheap electricity at night. Can't beat that

Even w/o cheaper electricity... you're talking about a difference of $0.01/mile. I drove a Jetta before I got my Tesla. The maintenance costs of the Jetta between timing belts, oil changes, EGR cooler etc added up to >$0.01/mile...

You are leaving out the fact that the daytime rate goes UP which completely negates the savings at night. You have to use 60% of electricity at night to break even.

??? Are you including the $24 base charge in your assessment? You pay that wether you have an EV or not... you're only gonna pay $0.06/kWh MORE...

If you got an EV and used 400kWh your electric bill isn't gonna go up by $72... it's going up by $24. You'll be paying $0.02/mile. Not $0.06/mile. You're doing math wrong.

No I did not, you are correct, I would still be paying 13cents a KW. If I switched to timed metering then you have to account for the price hike during the day. I do not like doubling my rate during the day. Stop cherry picking data.

Good catch. It looks like the EV economics are quite favorable for him. I guess that argument is toast.
I think there will always(in the near future at least) be die hard diesel enthusiasts for whom no rationale will justify giving up their diesels. I have Amish neighbors down the road that are quite content with horse and buggy. And they know exactly what to do with the emissions.

No they are not, and with all the drawbacks of EVs I do not see how it is "better" than my current setup.

 

[nwdiver]

No I did not, you are correct, I would still be paying 13cents a KW. If I switched to timed metering then you have to account for the price hike during the day. I do not like doubling my rate during the day. Stop cherry picking data.

Your other night-time loads get cheaper too... regardless... $0.13/kWh = ~$0.043/mile. AND with a more efficient EV like the Model 3 or LEAF you're looking at ~$0.033/mile vs ~$0.05/mile for diesel.

I know you're probably just trying to use this as a counter-point but if you were truly interested your utility probably has your TOU data so you could calculate how your bill would ACTUALLY change under a peak plan.

with all the drawbacks of EVs I do not see how it is "better" than my current setup.

Well, at least you can cross off 'cost of fuel'... the list of 'drawbacks' is getting shorter....

 

[CraziFuzzy]

For my own personal anecdotal math, based on current gasoline, diesel, and electric rates:
2015 Azera: $3.199/gal ÷ 25 miles/gal = $0.128/mile
2009 Armada: $3.199/gal ÷ 13 miles/gal = $0.25/mile
2009 Jetta TDi: $3.079/gal ÷ 34 miles/gal = $0.09/mile
2016 Fiat 500e: $0.24/kWh ÷ 3.4 miles/kWh = $0.07/mile
2016 Fiat 500e: $0.14/kWh ÷ 3.4 miles/kWh = $0.04/mile

Electric rates are tier 2 (my typical tier) of my current rate plan, and the 'super off peak' rate of the TOU EV plan if I was to switch to it.

 

[oilhammer]

Got a chance to look under a Tesla for the first time just now (one in the shop). Other than the giant flat (aluminum?) bottom section, which is a nice piece of welded structure, is is pretty ordinary underneath as far as the suspension and brakes go. French tires. Canadian control arms. German shock absorbers. Italian brakes. Good thing this is an American car, right?

It also has some lube leaking in the rear out a couple of little vent "grates" in the rear plastic shield. It is reddish, like some ATFs, coming out of what must be the transaxle, leaving little wet trails down the back of the car.

Other than that, looks to be pretty well assembled and laid out underneath.

It also has a standalone parking brake caliper which I found interesting.

 

[turbobrick240]

I'd be shocked if there is a single American made car with 100% of its parts manufactured here. At least Tesla assembles 100% of their cars in America, arguably making them the most American auto manufacturer. My Ford truck was built in Canada, and I have zero objections to that.

 

[CoolAirVw]

Got a chance to look under a Tesla for the first time just now (one in the shop).

did you get to road test it? I drove one at a "event" here in KC. It was spectacular. I found regen annoying as it would never "coast". But I could get used to that.

 

[oilhammer]

did you get to road test it? I drove one at a "event" here in KC. It was spectacular. I found regen annoying as it would never "coast". But I could get used to that.

I have driven them before, yes. STL Science Center had an event that had a bunch of EVs there, drove them all (all the ones that were available at the time). And yes, it is a neat car. The one I drove had a $110k price tag, so that alone was enough to stop my heart so the test drive to get it going again was welcome. Truthfully, though, there is not enough there for me to justify that price. A 911 turbo or an RS6 is also quite a blast to drive, and they make neater noises too.

I actually thought the eSpark was more "fun" to drive to be honest, LOL. But considering I could not drive it anywhere, it does not really matter.

 

[compu_85]

I found regen annoying as it would never "coast". But I could get used to that.

You get used to the Tesla one pedal style regen fairly quickly. Once I acclimated, I found it was much easier to be smooth than with the brake blending regen Toyota and Fiat use. (Tesla's regen isn't controlled by the brake pedal at all - lift off the go pedal and you get full regen.)

....Other than the giant flat (aluminum?) bottom section, which is a nice piece of welded structure...

The bottom of the Tesla battery tray is made of titanium.

You are leaving out the fact that the daytime rate goes UP which completely negates the savings at night. You have to use 60% of electricity at night to break even.

It was easy for us to do this... charge the cars at night, run laundry at night / weekends, and run a smaller AC unit during the day when we're not home.

-J

 

[oilhammer]

Not that it matters since I would never be able to afford one, but the center stack screen thingy is annoying and distracting. My distaste for that is about as much as my distaste for the CVT equipped Mitsubishi Mirage, and that thing angers me enough to make me want to kick puppies.

What is wrong with just a simple, traditional, easy to use radio and HVAC? I guess you could get used to it, but man, I thought BMW's iDrive was bad.

 

[rotarykid]

Not that it matters since I would never be able to afford one, but the center stack screen thingy is annoying and distracting. My distaste for that is about as much as my distaste for the CVT equipped Mitsubishi Mirage, and that thing angers me enough to make me want to kick puppies.

What is wrong with just a simple, traditional, easy to use radio and HVAC? I guess you could get used to it, but man, I thought BMW's iDrive was bad.

I'm with you on the distraction part .......

I am wondering if at some point the distractions will get to the point the feds will step in to limit what information and entertainment can be put in front of a driver?

Distracted driving today is much more of a danger today than drunk or high driving....

On a side note according to CDOT, today in CO. there is less high driving today since the legalization of weed.....

That is, while during that same time distracted raleted crashes & deaths have continued to climb....

Give me basic stuff as at least an option, or I will likely stick with what I have or similar for the rest of my driving life.......

 

[compu_85]

I found it no less distracting than any other nav system once I got used to it. When I was driving the Model S I found the common things I wanted to change could be done from the steering wheel buttons anyway.

The climate controls are easy to pull up, and I like having the navi map in the cluster and screen, instead of on my phone in a mount on the windshield.

I do wish the car remembered the DRL / parking light setting between "ignition" cycles.

I don't know how sold I am on the Model 3 not having any instrument cluster...

-J

 

[VeeDubTDI]

For my own personal anecdotal math, based on current gasoline, diesel, and electric rates:
2015 Azera: $3.199/gal ÷ 25 miles/gal = $0.128/mile
2009 Armada: $3.199/gal ÷ 13 miles/gal = $0.25/mile
2009 Jetta TDi: $3.079/gal ÷ 34 miles/gal = $0.09/mile
2016 Fiat 500e: $0.24/kWh ÷ 3.4 miles/kWh = $0.07/mile
2016 Fiat 500e: $0.14/kWh ÷ 3.4 miles/kWh = $0.04/mile

Electric rates are tier 2 (my typical tier) of my current rate plan, and the 'super off peak' rate of the TOU EV plan if I was to switch to it.

You're being very conservative with the 500e's consumption. In the 6,000 miles I've driven since April 1st, the car has averaged 4.4 miles per kWh. I expect closer to 3.4 in the winter.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I found it no less distracting than any other nav system once I got used to it. When I was driving the Model S I found the common things I wanted to change could be done from the steering wheel buttons anyway.

The climate controls are easy to pull up, and I like having the navi map in the cluster and screen, instead of on my phone in a mount on the windshield.

I do wish the car remembered the DRL / parking light setting between "ignition" cycles.

I don't know how sold I am on the Model 3 not having any instrument cluster...

-J

I've found that there is a learning curve with Tesla's center display. At first, it's annoying because you have to poke through menus to find what you're looking for. Climate control is always at the bottom, so that's a non-issue for me (plus, auto climate works very well).

Once you've used it for a few days and you know where things are located, muscle memory helps you accomplish what trying to do with minimal distraction. On top of that, the layout is pretty intuitive.

BMW's iDrive is very difficult to use, even after you've had it for some time. Rather than remembering touch screen positions, you have to concentrate on navigating through expanding menus with what is essentially a mouse pointer. I found Mercedes' new infotainment to be similarly frustrating.

 

[turbobrick240]

If I had a model 3, I think I'd mount a small mobile device on the dash where the instrument cluster should be. Mostly so I could look at the speedometer without really taking my eyes off the road. Somebody will probably come up with some sort of cluster solution that satisfies people who like a more traditional layout.

 

[compu_85]

HUD type add on devices already exist.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

If I had a model 3, I think I'd mount a small mobile device on the dash where the instrument cluster should be. Mostly so I could look at the speedometer without really taking my eyes off the road. Somebody will probably come up with some sort of cluster solution that satisfies people who like a more traditional layout.

I think most people will find that the positioning on the Model 3's display will provide for good peripheral vision of the speedometer.

I'm waiting for one of the few lucky owners do post a point-of-view YouTube video of them going for a drive.

 

[El Dobro]

You're being very conservative with the 500e's consumption. In the 6,000 miles I've driven since April 1st, the car has averaged 4.4 miles per kWh. I expect closer to 3.4 in the winter.

I usually average that with the Volt. On a few local runs, I've gotten it as high as 5.93mi per kWh, so far. I'm sure the Fiat can do that.

 

[Chris]

I usually average that with the Volt. On a few local runs, I've gotten it as high as 5.93mi per kWh, so far. I'm sure the Fiat can do that.

This time of year (with my Volt) I see 5.1 mi/kWh on my daily commute.

In the depths of winter, close to 3.1 with the need for resistance heat.

 

[El Dobro]

This time of year (with my Volt) I see 5.1 mi/kWh on my daily commute.

The only way I can do that on my commute is if there's a traffic jam.

 

[dremd]

My weekly average seems to always be 4.0 miles per KWH.
I've got a heat pump, and live in a relatively mild climate and drive a lot of interstate though.

I've seen trip efficacy as low as 2.1 m/kWh and as high as 6.5 when not really trying and 9.5 when hypermiling pretty hard.

 

[bhtooefr]

A piece on CleanTechnica discussing how PHEVs can provide significant benefit

 

[CraziFuzzy]

You're being very conservative with the 500e's consumption. In the 6,000 miles I've driven since April 1st, the car has averaged 4.4 miles per kWh. I expect closer to 3.4 in the winter.

It's not a guess, it's what I actually get. Like I said, I spend a lot of time using it as an air conditioned shelter.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

It's not a guess, it's what I actually get. Like I said, I spend a lot of time using it as an air conditioned shelter.

Hah. I did the same thing at the Poolesville, MD Drive Electric Week event this past Saturday. Silent A/C is pretty nice.

 

[SilverGhost]

I have an odd question (I think) for EV drivers among us. Is the heat pump system really worth it or can I get away with not having it.

Reason I ask is VW is limiting the heat pump systems to top of the line eGolfs and the all the lesser eGolfs get resistive heating only. I want to know if its really worth spending the extra money for that system or not.

Jason

 

[kjclow]

Does the resistive heat pull more charge from the battery? That should then reduce the overall miles per charge in colder weather.

 

[tadawson]

Unless they built the worst heat pump in history, it has to. Resistive is just about the least efficient form of electric heat in existence . . .

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I have an odd question (I think) for EV drivers among us. Is the heat pump system really worth it or can I get away with not having it.

Reason I ask is VW is limiting the heat pump systems to top of the line eGolfs and the all the lesser eGolfs get resistive heating only. I want to know if its really worth spending the extra money for that system or not.

Jason

Resistance heat will use a lot more energy than a heat pump. A rough figure would be 3x as much energy to product the same amount of heat.

For me, it's a toss-up. Resistance heat is less complex and will likely require less maintenance in the future. Additionally, very cold climates will likely be too cold for a heat pump, so the system will fall back to resistance heat quite a bit, negating the heat pump's savings.

A heat pump will certainly impact your range much less than resistance heating in moderately cold temperatures (let's say 20F - 50F). If you can find a car with a heat pump, great, but don't rule out conventional resistance heating unless you have a good reason to do so (range limitations, for example).