EGR

[LLY_Ashton]

I recently got a 2003 Jetta TDI and I’m wondering where to get a delete and where to get something to get rid of the case if it pops up. I’ve seen many but not sure where to go.

 

[MrCypherr]

Places like PerformanceTDI would have them for sale or Xman depending on price to USD. But you'd need to get software if you dont want the CEL on.

 

[oilhammer]

No real need to physically delete anything on the ALH, if you for whatever reason do not want the EGR to function, it can be tuned out. But honestly it isn't that big of a deal to have it on there and functional on a stock engine really.

 

[LLY_Ashton]

Places like PerformanceTDI would have them for sale or Xman depending on price to USD. But you'd need to get software if you dont want the CEL on.

What’s kind of software would I need to get?

 

[MrCypherr]

Im not sure what they call it but any tune that has a 'EGR delete'. Some call it a stage 0.5 or something.

 

[burpod]

No real need to physically delete anything on the ALH, if you for whatever reason do not want the EGR to function, it can be tuned out. But honestly it isn't that big of a deal to have it on there and functional on a stock engine really.

except for when it leaks (exhaust, coolant, vacuum) and removing it (since it's not doing anything) clears up a ton of room to get your hands back there to the turbo etc.. sooo much easier to work on things when all that crap is out of the way

 

[oilhammer]

Well, once again, they don't do much of that, and unless you really have nothing better to do, there is no reason to be "getting to things back there" anyway. I don't routinely check my piston ring gaps either.

If you remove the trunk lid, the spare tire will be easier to get to.

If you remove the dash, the heater core will be easier to get to.

If you remove the back seat, the fuel sender will be easier to get to.

If you remove the bumper cover, the intercooler will be easier to get to.

If you remove..... the .... will be easier to get to...

I drive an ALH every day, 100 miles a day. You know the last time I had to get to anything on the back side of the engine? When I untooefed the car back when I got it... in 2010... at 383k miles. It has 620k on it now.

added another TDI to the family | TDIClub Forums

 

[d24tdi]

^ Bingo!

Always hilarious to see the threads where someone things the FIRST thing they HAVE to do before thinking about anything else on their new TDI (especially the old pre-emissions ones, lol!) is DELETE IT.

Kind of makes me think of the kind of car owners who buy a set of fancy blackout taillights and spend money on a performance exhaust system, while the car (or often pickup truck) has 15 year old bald tires and an oil leak and five warning lights on the dash lit up. Sorry if I am coming off as cranky but it makes no sense to me.

The EGR system on an ALH causes no harm. Maxing out the EGR adaptation channel in VCDS, plus the use of modern ULSD and not driving it like a grandma, will accomplish all that ever needs to be done to keep the intake clean so no worries there. Failure rate is low on the EGR system parts on an ALH, and even lower if you have them basically turned off. Failure rate on hack job parts in delete kits is undoubtedly higher.

OP, if this car is new to you, friendly suggestion: don't worry about deletes. Instead make your first concern figuring out when the timing belt was last replaced, who did it, with what parts and with what tools and methods and torque instructions, and address any concerns that investigation reveals immediately without cutting any corners. A neglected or incorrectly serviced timing belt is a much bigger threat to your new car than the EGR system is.

Then proceed with other Stage 0 steps and get the car to a perfect stock baseline. If you mod it before you get it dialed in, you'll hate yourself later when you have to troubleshoot something and are faced with figuring out whether it was a preexisting underlying issue or something your modifications caused. Know what you're starting with first, and be sure it's not going to self-destruct for a dumb reason like a timing belt living on borrowed time.

 

[LLY_Ashton]

I was just wanting to see what everone had to say. I know the timing was done 2 months ago and I’m definitely open to advice of what to look at and go over before looking at any not necessary mods.

 

[burpod]

deleting all that cr*p is a perfectly fine way to spend a nice afternoon getting acquainted with your "new" engine. can't screw anything up by removing it (assuming you're planning on getting tuned properly), only fix things - lol, well, unless you encounter a broken bolt etc but might as well get that out of the way.

obviously, make sure more important stuff is squared away first, like mentioned, the TB.... i would always want to check for myself that cam/crank is spot on, and if TB history is unknown or sketchy, redo it, replacing all the bits.

with good tuning methods with someone who knows what they're doing... and vcds logging/etc is done, there's no sense in *not* tuning right away, as long as you know what you're doing. plenty of people waste a lot of time (and $$) chasing vac problems, egr related problems, maf related problems. delete the egr, delete the maf, clean up that rats nest of vac lines to the bare minimum, good tune, and half the most common problems are done away with. only common issues to check are turbo/n75 issues which can be checked out and diagnosed in 10min. that would leave essentially only pump/nozzle issues to deal with. and that can all be done with the right vcds data logging....

 

[azviking33]

@burpod How long would a fully deleted BEW be safe to drive without the tune?
I have everything deleted, EGR valve, EGR cooler, butterfly flap thingies in the intake manifold....
Just have to wait on the tune. Just a CEL on? or are there other complications of driving it without the tune.
TIA for your insight

 

[oilhammer]

Guthrie, plenty of people waste time trying to modify things they don't understand, while the basics are suspect... get the car as close to perfect as you can realistically achieve, as it left the factory, THEN if you want to change things go right ahead. Not everyone who buys these needs or wants to change things. Believe it or not, these were pretty darn good cars exactly as they left the factory. Starting from THAT point is always best. Farting around with stuff under the hood that is still working perfectly fine, while the dash is blowing foam out at your face, or the parking brake cables are a mangled rusted mess, or the compliance bushings have pounded themselves to pieces, or whatever the other 20+ things a 1/4 million+ mile 20+ year old car might have going on with it, doesn't make any sense.

 

[MrCypherr]

Agreed. I cant count how many times I've seen cars that are modified and whatnot but have so many issues with them. Not even counting improper install of said components. Bushings cracked, bearings have play, engine misfiring etc. If the car is at the stage where everything is corrected, then thats when you start playing around.

 

[Zak99b5]

Trying to instill this idea of "Stage 0" in my 23 yo son who bought an 01 Jetta TDI almost a year ago. He's buying taillights and looking at wheels while his rear calipers are dodgy (sticking parking brake lever and torn piston boots), front right outer CV boot torn & flinging grease, wiggly vac nipple, etc.

 

[MrCypherr]

Honestly, at 23 years old I was the same way. I look back now and wish I did that Stage 0 idea. I was buying stuff while the water pump was leaking on my Mk3 VR6 or rear beam bushings were basically gone and back end was just all over the place. Thankfully I learned and my next car was taken care of before I did anything.

 

[burpod]

Guthrie, plenty of people waste time trying to modify things they don't understand, while the basics are suspect... get the car as close to perfect as you can realistically achieve, as it left the factory, THEN if you want to change things go right ahead. Not everyone who buys these needs or wants to change things. Believe it or not, these were pretty darn good cars exactly as they left the factory. Starting from THAT point is always best. Farting around with stuff under the hood that is still working perfectly fine, while the dash is blowing foam out at your face, or the parking brake cables are a mangled rusted mess, or the compliance bushings have pounded themselves to pieces, or whatever the other 20+ things a 1/4 million+ mile 20+ year old car might have going on with it, doesn't make any sense.

fully agree with that. not saying one should fart around with modifying something that isn't causing problems when other more important problems are staring you in the face... never said that

 

[oilhammer]

I just think over the last year or so you've become hyper-focused on tuning/deleting everything, and you sit in your cave surrounded by computers and are not getting the whole picture.

Reminds me of when my old boss got the forklift... suddenly it was the most important thing on the planet. Need an engine crane? No, we have a forklift! Need to move a dead car? Don't push it, we have a forklift! Need to lift (yet another) replacement GM transmission out of the delivery truck? Don't grab another guy an lift it, get the forklift! Forklift! FORKLIFT!!! That's all we heard about for weeks on end, LOL. You found your tuning gig, and opened Pandora's Box and you've been having so much fun with it that nothing else matters... I just find it funny. Any thread, any post you make, pretty much goes right back to that. Someone posts about brakes... "Well ya know, if you logged this and that and had a tune for this and that, you won't even NEED brakes!"

Now when you can figure out how to tune away broken springs, stuck RCVs, wiped out suspension bushings, seized alternator pulleys, and all the rest, then we'll really have something.

And this thread, to the OP's question because we have no context, to d24tdi's point, we DO see these threads pop up a lot where this sudden knee-jerk approach to ANYTHING is to start deleting things, and quite often this new owner doesn't have all the information and jumps to a conclusion that isn't based in any real-world situation. I mean, if you just bought a [stock] 2003 car, it's already survived 21 years. That's already pretty good. Above average.

 

[MrCypherr]

One thing I would do is pull the hose off and check that EGR valve for being blocked over the years. Wonder if its ever been cleaned.

 

[burpod]

I just think over the last year or so you've become hyper-focused on tuning/deleting everything, and you sit in your cave surrounded by computers and are not getting the whole picture.

Reminds me of when my old boss got the forklift... suddenly it was the most important thing on the planet. Need an engine crane? No, we have a forklift! Need to move a dead car? Don't push it, we have a forklift! Need to lift (yet another) replacement GM transmission out of the delivery truck? Don't grab another guy an lift it, get the forklift! Forklift! FORKLIFT!!! That's all we heard about for weeks on end, LOL. You found your tuning gig, and opened Pandora's Box and you've been having so much fun with it that nothing else matters... I just find it funny. Any thread, any post you make, pretty much goes right back to that. Someone posts about brakes... "Well ya know, if you logged this and that and had a tune for this and that, you won't even NEED brakes!"

Now when you can figure out how to tune away broken springs, stuck RCVs, wiped out suspension bushings, seized alternator pulleys, and all the rest, then we'll really have something.

And this thread, to the OP's question because we have no context, to d24tdi's point, we DO see these threads pop up a lot where this sudden knee-jerk approach to ANYTHING is to start deleting things, and quite often this new owner doesn't have all the information and jumps to a conclusion that isn't based in any real-world situation. I mean, if you just bought a [stock] 2003 car, it's already survived 21 years. That's already pretty good. Above average.

not seeing the whole picture?? that's crazy to me. i've never been been involved in seeing the whole picture now than ever before. from everything i've learned the last few years getting into tuning,.... and sitting in a cave surround by computers? - sure, i spend a lot of time at the computer, i have to, but nothing could be further from the truth. i'm always working on these cars hands-on, not day-in-day-out like a full-time mechanic, but enough that i a tdi can land in my driveway and i diagnose/fix virtually anything on it, given the parts on hand - down to an engine rebuild. have a likely head replacement to do in the next few weeks (no thanks to 11mm pump swap + mystery tune with crap boost control, too much advance, leaking head gasket - it's since been retuned, ask @braddies how it's running now compared to before ). also a transmission to swap out. another car with cruddy intake manifold, oil change, other basics + new injectors + tune install. but with the tuning, especially remotely, i end up spending a vast amount of time making sure there aren't a bunch of stupid or weird hardware problems that really shouldn't be my responsibility, but if i don't, most people don't know everything that needs to be checked and tested. have found over a half-dozen bad t-stats people didn't know they had, a few wonky coolant temp sensors, pumps with timing or voltage issues, and of course the usual random bad n75, sticky vanes, vac leaks, etc. i shouldn't have to do this, but i do, because i want good results.

most people don't have a stock hardware car anymore, and most of some sort of messed up tune on top of that, so things are never cut and dry. it's RARE to work on a car that hasn't been molested or neglected in some way. if someone wants to run around with ****ty suspension bushings, or not want to take the time to make sure rear calipers aren't sticking or rear wheel bearings are shot, that's not my problem, although i always suggest making sure all the basics are covered.

and what most people don't understand is how, despite various hardware issues, one "tune" might run decent, or seem to not have problems, but another tune will. they're like "well it ran basically fine on XXX tune, but it's running like crap on your tune" , so why are you having me check for all these possible issues? like i'm trying to blame them for a my crap tune. unfortunately, i almost can't blame them, because that is a common thing to do by most "pro tuners" - see it non-stop, all the time..... but not so simple. so many factors that can compound and add up in strange ways.... if i see a log or were to drive the car on XXX tune, the problems would be apparent to me, because i look at a lot of details nobody else considers, and that always involves logging, and if possible, logging + watching live data if it's an in-person deal - that is really key. unless you've gone down to that level, you won't understand it... a common example is how easy it is for your foot to be fooled and the mid-range of fueling actually being flat, not right at all. but to the average driver, there doesn't appear to be any real problem, because your foot can gloss over that very easily unless you're watching actual IQ numbers, especially if you've been used to the car for a while.

i would argue that most here are not seeing the whole picture and often waste a lot of time/$$/parts not properly diagnosing things and trying to combat faulty tunes (+ often hardware at the same time), without understanding what they're really even doing, or what the real problems are! how many threads have there been over the years where people blindly ask questions, throw parts over issues regarding "boost" problems? and virtually never a log taken, and if there is a log taken, it's usually just a simple boost log with no consideration for the whole picture - for example, almost nobody takes a log of timing to make sure the pump timing is behaving and that's not a contributing factor - seen this already a few times. and that can have very different results on tune X vs tune Y.

i don't know where you get this idea that i think all problems can be "tuned away" - the only problems that can be are EGR/MAF related ones - and those are the 2 things that are a constant problem and that's why i always bring it up.. and it's a simple, no-harm done solution to physically get rid of it since it's going to be (or can easily be) tuned out anyway! and it *does* solve issues. almost every tdi that's ended up in my driveway is a mess back there. oil leaks, probable exhaust leaks, who knows if egr valve is stuck open a bit, vac leaks, asv leaking oil/boost, etc. the bunch of tdi's i've had here pretty much all had intake manifolds that needed to be cleaned, so no way in hell i'd put the egr crap back in there. threads always popping up where someone has said they're having boost problems and that they've replaced the n75, replaced n18, replaced egr assembly, replaced the maf, etc and the problem is still there? or maybe now the problem seems to have shifted and there's still confusion......

 

[oilhammer]

Well you've had a very different clientele that I have. Because over the years, the VAST overwhelming majority of every TDI that has come through and continues to come through here are completely unmodified 100% stock cars. Especially the VE and PDs. The CRs are becoming a different animal simply because they cannot be kept stock and functional without the outlay of a lot of money and a lot of those people are sick of that. But even then, they still are mostly unmodified. Remember, tampering with emissions parts is illegal, and a lot of places have testing for it, including here.

 

[J_dude]

Well you've had a very different clientele that I have.

Well naturally, they go to him because they want a tune lol.

 

[boertje]

I think by the time @burpod gets a “client” that he is by default getting a mess to deal with.

So personally i have done some work with burpod on a few alh and currently a bew. The alh (all 11mm, dlc520, vnt15, malone st2, hammer modded to 6-7, pump voltage 1.76) all had smoke issues, lag, and went flat at 3500rpm. On one alh car i was having problems with lag and smoke, malone actually gave me a few tunes to try but finally told me there was nothing else he could do and he couldn’t spend more time on it and that I must have a hardware problem of course which was totally nonsense. My cars are totally and correctly maintained and everything is intact and functioning.

My bew is a 2006 bug dsg. It has always been a pain to start when warm. Like 3-5 or more seconds of crank time. My battery is tired again, and i fear for my starter. I even ordered a new starter to have on hand thinking that might be the issue. It had the famous malone tune stage 1.5 that was supposed to fix this start issue. This engine has always been noisy and fuel economy has always been terrible.

Since burpod started posting his tuning philosophies and about his malone tuning starter kit, i thought here is another know it all and that he is full of it until i started to read these threads in its entirety. So i decided to put this fool mr know it all to the test and prove he is wrong. I contacted him and ran by him my red bug alh and my bew for starters. He asked for logs of 011-001-004. Turns out my bew at cruise was running charge pressures of 75-80% and close to 1800mbar while specified was 1300-1400ish. So practically vanes closed. This was at just crusing down the highway. So now it was diagnostic time. First check vacuum pump, check all vacuum lines, check turbo actuator for proper travel, unplug smart actuator to see how that affected logs, check intake flap value to see if it was stuck, check both egr valving, and finally check operation of the N75 and actual vacuum level post valve. Ran new logs.

To shorten this story, i have had a few revision tunes on bew. 1st, this engine runs much quieter now like my alh, 2nd and best of all, I hardly have to turn the key and the engine fires right up now, 3rd, boost now tracks much closer to specified with charge pressures at cruzing in the mid 40 range, 4th, this thing is so much more responsive and now actually has power and no smoke. Have i removed any egr hardware from my alh and bew fleet? Nope its still on there and thats fine with me until it creates a problem and/or starts leaking. Then I’ll deal with that.

Bottom line, burpod does NOT advocate a tune for every problem, he advocates a tune to fix mistuned cars where (and he stressed this with me) the first requirement is that the hardware is sound and functioning correctly. There is much more i could tell in detail including his custom measuring blocks to get a full picture of what that engine is doing on boost, timing, injection timing, fuel consumption, etc.

The hammer mods on alh have all been reversed back to factory stock to where pump voltage at idle is 1.45 and iq is 3.5. Even injection pump is now slightly below midline. The result on alh? Lag is gone, smoke is gone, the power plateau north of 3500rpm is gone. Its not the same engine.

In any case this is MY experience thus far.

 

[oilhammer]

He was advocating physical removal of emissions control equipment. Reread post #6.

My only point here was that on the ALH engine, the EGR cooler and its associated components do not physically harm anything to leave them in place, regardless of what or if any software changes are made. That's it. That's all I meant.

Now, the BEW, the BRM, and the BHW...? Those engines' EGR coolers DO have some specific fail points (all different) that one could certainly make the point that there is a want to physically remove them. But the ALH? Nope. Coolers don't fail. They don't fall off. The pipes don't break (unless someone had something done wrong before), etc. Even if you chose to tune the actual EGR system out, the physical components can remain on the car and don't do anything and don't care. Yes, the valve itself can eventually weep some oil out the vent hole... and if the car is tuned, you can fix that with a little set screw easily enough for a few cents.

 

[boertje]

I did not address his removal of said equipment. And to your point on alh egr component removal, i agree and that is why mine is still on it.

 

[MrCypherr]

I just knew that those clogged up along with the intake manifold which is why I thought they were mainly removed. Not too knowledgeable on the older ones compared to the CRs but that was my thought.

 

[oilhammer]

Pre-ULSD intake clogging was a real problem. The coolers don't clog, it was the intake itself. And again, you can completely eliminate that with software (or for that matter, you can just disconnect the vacuum hose to the EGR or the N18 solenoid or whatever).

But with ULSD, the clogging was reduced dramatically. Not completely gone, but enough that it isn't at all like it used to be. I had cars that were driven too easy by people that every 60k miles I had to swap in a clean intake. Those same cars, driven by the same people, post-ULSD rollout have now piled another ~200k miles on the car and the intakes have never been back off.

Of course, the throttle-less ALH does not keep the exhaust gasses flowing as fast and as turbulent as the PDs and especially the CRs, so that adds to the issue as well. The CJAA can happily go a half million miles and never require any intake cleaning (although the manifold itself will have failed long before that... but for a different reason).

 

[MrCypherr]

Ah gotcha. I've read some people also delete the swirl flaps in the intake manifold and completely remove that motor all together to eliminate that failure from happening. At that point, the intake manifold should be damn near clean and not worry about any cleaning. I've seen some manifolds on CJAAs that were pretty bad and the flaps just clogged up pretty good.

 

[boertje]

Yeah clogging was an issue. My 2000 golf i used to have.

My intake

• boertje
• Nov 6, 2012

My intake at 154k miles.

 

[oilhammer]

I've seen dozens clogged to the size of a pencil, and a few even quit running altogether. Don't see any of that anymore. The 2003 Golf that I bought from a customer not long ago has 110k on it now, and I did a cleaning at 66k and it was as bad as any. I bet now it is hardly anything. Because the ULSD rollout phased in around 2006-7, it was slowed by hurricane Katrina, and this was why the DPF-equipped CR TDIs also were delayed (ULSD fuel is a requirement for DPF-equipped diesels in much the same manner unleaded gasoline is a requirement for catalyst-equipped gassers).

Of course, the NOx limits were much less draconian then, so the engine wasn't having to run as much EGR as the later (and subsequently "outlawed" diesels do).

 

[boertje]

And my 2002 jetta with 150k miles only had maybe 1mm layer.