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eGolfs for $10K off MSRP, another $10K off for federal and CA.

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV, 2015 Spark EV
I think my ELR will do 110 - Haven't tried.
I still have the EV1 brochures and they had the speed limit set at 80mph. In 1994, they took the speed limit off and with some body mods, the took one up to 183mph. They had the motor up to 13,500rpm.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I read an interesting fact that the Kia Niro electric battery pack weighs 1005 lbs. and holds the equivalent of 1.9 gallons of gasoline. I think battery technology has a ways to go still.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
A long way to go AND, even in light of the fact that most of an ICE's fuel consumed isn't even turned into motion. It is turned into heat and water.

But, to be fair regarding the weight, an EV's "powertrain" can be much, MUCH smaller and lighter. So it really can be a wash... although you'd think the Leaf would be lighter than it is. It certainly feels like it would be based on the tactile feel of being cheaply plastic laden like any other small Japanese car. But they tip the scales fairly heavy. The low center of gravity makes them not feel too awful on the road though.
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The energy 1.9 gallons of fuel contains will take you 3-4x further in a vehicle that gets 120 MPGe than one that gets 30-40 mpg. As fun and cool as combustion engines are, they are just horribly inefficient.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The energy 1.9 gallons of fuel contains will take you 3-4x further in a vehicle that gets 120 MPGe than one that gets 30-40 mpg. As fun and cool as combustion engines are, they are just horribly inefficient.

Exactly. And yet even with that awful efficiency, they can still be "recharged" in 5 minutes and driven 700+ miles. Over and over again. That is why the efficiency, as bad as it is, is such a hurdle for EVs to overcome to become mainstream for everyone without some serious lifestyle changes which not everyone is able or willing to do. Even the BEST EVs cannot even do half that (10 minute recharge, 350 mile range). I don't think they'll ever get there, to be honest. But we've been spoiled. :p
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
So your options are an inefficient drivetrain with the ability to easily store and replace a lot of energy, or an efficient drivetrain with an inefficient energy storage and replenishment system. Your pick.

Given the recharge time on an EV, I think one would be appealing to me if they can improve battery technology to provide a 1,200 mile range. That way I'd never have to wait for the vehicle to charge during the day.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
Springfield VA
TDI
1999.5 Jetta GLX TDI
Even the BEST EVs cannot even do half that (10 minute recharge, 350 mile range). I don't think they'll ever get there, to be honest. But we've been spoiled. :p
TBH, I don't miss the old iron butt days. Stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hours makes the trip much less of a grind, and the stops have food and restrooms.

-J
 

casioqv

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Location
California
TDI
2009 Touareg TDI
So many of you guys seem convinced that EVs aren't practical yet, but most of the people in my social circle (norcal academics) have them as primary cars, and they meet every transportation need. Two friends regularly do long cross country rural road trips in Teslas (one even pulling a small trailer) and have zero problems...


In my opinion EVs now meet the needs of 99.99% of drivers, e.g. anyone that doesn't do what compu_85 called "Iron Butt"- drive 700 mile stretches without stopping at all (mostly just teenagers road trips). Very few adults have the interest, time, or physical stamina to use a vehicle in the narrow way that only a high range ICE car like a TDI can handle. If you have a 30 mile commute and your car has a 325 mile range and starts with a full charge at home every morning (and often again mid-day at work), it really doesn't matter if some other car has a more energy dense fuel or even more range- what matters is that you can drive where you want to go without worrying...


I still drive a TDI because I actually do iron butt driving pulling a small sailboat to races, in fact it's the only way I use a car since I commute to work by bike/train. The TDI sometimes sits for months until I take a road trip, and needs a solar panel to keep the battery up... but I don't know anyone else that uses a car like that.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Could most people use an EV as their only auto? Probably. Does everyone want to deal with the planning and anxiety of driving one all the time? Probably not. I certainly don't.

I bought my first VW diesel just before the second big fuel shortage in '78. I was living in LA, and had just started dating a girl I eventually married. We had a great time that summer because we could go anywhere we wanted while others were fretting over how long they were going to have to wait to get their next fill up, or if the 10 gallons they were allowed would get them to work and back for the next few days. Diesel wasn't subject to odd/even rationing (some will remember that) and almost no stations ran out.

I love my TDIs in no small part because of the range. Not even thinking about fuel for 600-700 miles is very relaxing. Perhaps that summer of '78 left me with lifelong range anxiety.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Diesel was also significantly cheaper than gas back then. Those were the days (to be a diesel owner at least).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I used to buy fuel at an Iranian station on Wilshire called Oasis. Diesel was $0.32/gallon. At the time regular gasoline was $0.69. And if I wanted to drive down to Tijuana, Pemex diesel was $0.18. Fill the Rabbit for $2.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Meh, I have about $6k total in my daily driver, and I have put nearly 200k miles on it. It is closing in on 20 years old now, still works just the same (well, technically better) as it did when new. It is cheap, and it works. And it will continue to work.

Maybe when my house is paid for, I'll consider blowing $50k on a car that can only go short distances, and I will probably not be able to go much longer by that point. Until then, I'll keep pumping the diesel.

Right now, I just need to live long enough to see my remaining son through to the end, EVs will likely push me out of a job anyway, so I won't have anywhere to drive TO so it won't matter. Then I can just drop dead.
 

jackbombay

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Location
Diesel knows best
TDI
A4 Jetta
Exactly. And yet even with that awful efficiency, they can still be "recharged" in 5 minutes and driven 700+ miles. Over and over again.
What percent of cars available today can go 700+ miles on a tank with normal driving conditions? %1?

So electric cars need to meet a benchmark that %99 of cars available today can't meet?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Very few, and I never said they cannot meet the needs of a vast number of people. I have been driving VAG diesels almost since I have been driving, and I drive a lot. So fuel economy, range, longevity, and actually being something I WANT to drive are very important TO ME. I realize I am a minority, and I am perfectly fine with that.

Americans do not buy for economy in the larger sense. If they did, Ford would still be selling the Fiesta and F150s would be gathering dust. But they are not. Instead, the Fiesta went away, but we are getting a new giant gas V8 for the F-super duty trucks!

The whole subject of this thread proves my point: Volkswagen has to throw a pile of cash on the hood of an eGolf just to sell them. In addition to whatever taxpayer costs are paid out. Yet Ford chucks a new truck off the assembly line every 45 seconds.

It isn't ME you need to convince of anything. :cool:
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
So many of you guys seem convinced that EVs aren't practical yet, but most of the people in my social circle (norcal academics) have them as primary cars, and they meet every transportation need. Two friends regularly do long cross country rural road trips in Teslas (one even pulling a small trailer) and have zero problems...

In my opinion EVs now meet the needs of 99.99% of drivers, e.g. anyone that doesn't do what compu_85 called "Iron Butt"- drive 700 mile stretches without stopping at all (mostly just teenagers road trips). Very few adults have the interest, time, or physical stamina to use a vehicle in the narrow way that only a high range ICE car like a TDI can handle. If you have a 30 mile commute and your car has a 325 mile range and starts with a full charge at home every morning (and often again mid-day at work), it really doesn't matter if some other car has a more energy dense fuel or even more range- what matters is that you can drive where you want to go without worrying...

I still drive a TDI because I actually do iron butt driving pulling a small sailboat to races, in fact it's the only way I use a car since I commute to work by bike/train. The TDI sometimes sits for months until I take a road trip, and needs a solar panel to keep the battery up... but I don't know anyone else that uses a car like that.
Most of Teslas on the road are sedans, not SUVs. Other EVs are fairly small vehicles by American standards suitable for the city.

Sedans are becoming the exception and SUVs the norm for road trips (and city trips). Am I wrong?

Then how are we are going to say that an EV sedan, a Tesla 3, with a similar size to a Toyota Corolla (well maybe a little bit larger) is going to become mainstream in America pretty soon?

Somehow we miss the 'miss the forest for the trees'. I can speak of myself as a TDIClub member. I want a new or slightly used light duty diesel midsize wagon car with 40 cubic feet of cargo and manual transmission (ok, I can settle with an automatic if I have to) that averages at least 40 MPG combined city/hwy. Reality check: there is no such vehicle in the US for sale! I would have to wait 25 years to import one from another part of the world or be a diplomat :(
 

casioqv

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Location
California
TDI
2009 Touareg TDI
Then how are we are going to say that an EV sedan, a Tesla 3, with a similar size to a Toyota Corolla (well maybe a little bit larger) is going to become mainstream in America pretty soon?

I guess it depends on where you live... the model 3 is already as mainstream as you can get around here, it's probably the single most common vehicle on the road. But I live in a small west coast college town... there's probably 15 MKIV TDIs in this town for every F150.

"Tesla Model 3 Was #1 Top Selling Car In California In 2nd Half Of 2018" https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/2...nia-in-2nd-half-of-2018-cleantechnica-report/
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Wouldn't a BMW 328d wagon fit those parameters? You could always manual swap one if they only come here in
auto.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I guess it depends on where you live... the model 3 is already as mainstream as you can get around here, it's probably the single most common vehicle on the road. But I live in a small west coast college town... there's probably 15 MKIV TDIs in this town for every F150.

"Tesla Model 3 Was #1 Top Selling Car In California In 2nd Half Of 2018" https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/2...nia-in-2nd-half-of-2018-cleantechnica-report/
Ever noticed that when you're interested in a car, all of a sudden that's all you see on the road? I think that's what you're experiencing. And that statistic is also skewed, I bet. The key trick to that sentence is the word "car". Data on the first have of 2018 that I looked at showed sales of all hybrid and EVs in CA were 10.7% of total vehicle sales. Even though Model 3 sales were still ramping up in the first half, and even though that may be the highest percentage in the country, it's still a tiny fraction.
 
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casioqv

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Location
California
TDI
2009 Touareg TDI
You're seeing what you want to see. And that statistic is also skewed, I bet. How many F150s and Silverados were sold in California in the same time period? I bet 2-3 times as many as Model 3s. The key trick to that sentence is the word "car".

Take a look at the plot in that link "Top Selling Vehicles in California (2nd Half of 2018)". I think the title is an error, they meant to say best selling vehicle.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Just shows that if you pick the right time period (Tesla running all out to deliver backordered cars in a short time window), you can make the numbers go your way. The full year numbers tell a very different story. And I bet the 1st half 2019 numbers will look more like the full 2018 numbers than the second half numbers.
 

Dannyboy

Veteran Member
Joined
May 25, 2013
Location
Mb
TDI
2014
BTW, average price per kWh in Massachusetts is $0.22
Holy!! $0.22 per KWh, only saving grace we have up north. Compared to $0.07 per KWh here is ridiculously cheap. However we get no incentives here so outright cost of the car cancels out savings.which is a pity because my misses was looking at one. She got a TSI instead
 

Jetta SS

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Location
Grand Bay, AL
TDI
'98 Jetta
Holy!! $0.22 per KWh, only saving grace we have up north. Compared to $0.07 per KWh here is ridiculously cheap. However we get no incentives here so outright cost of the car cancels out savings.which is a pity because my misses was looking at one. She got a TSI instead
MA has invested in offshore wind turbines right? Thats most likely the reason for the high costs. Free energy from the wind.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Not really. We haven't built any. Two projects have failed to launch, and they're trying a third. Not hopeful about that, either. My .02 is that it's idiotic. People don't know about environmental impact, turbine life in salt conditions is very short, payback won't happen, ever.

I think the high costs are more bourne of utilities financing debt as they buy each other out, and high infrastructure costs because they've neglected the grid for so long. Our power delivery gets less reliable each year. I don't think someone like me living in a suburb of a major city should need a generator, but power failures are frequent enough that we do.

Surprisingly, solar works pretty well here. That's a better option, I think.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
TBH, I don't miss the old iron butt days. Stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hours makes the trip much less of a grind, and the stops have food and restrooms.

-J
We did the iron butt last week. 1200 miles in two days. We did stop every two hours or so but that was usually enough time to either get food or empty the bladder. Filled at the start and only stopped twice for fuel. Overall, probably less than an hour total stops. Oh, we did stop overnight at my daughter's at the first 400 mile mark. That made the second day about 800 miles total. Fuel stop that day was because the range indicator put us about 10 miles shy of the driveway. Gotta love the 26 gallon tank in my Ram.
 
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compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
Springfield VA
TDI
1999.5 Jetta GLX TDI
So, then the trip took longer in your ram than it would have in an EV, since you had to make a special stop to refuel ;)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I don't think even Jason or the most ardent EV advocate would dispute that a long road trip is going to take more time in an EV than an ICE car. i planned a recent drive to Madison WI from Massachusetts, and the Tesla projected about an additional 6 hours for charging time.

However, most would also agree that a 1,200 mile driving day (I did the return in one shot) is the exception, not the rule. Nevertheless, I prefer to be able to drive long distances without having to stop where there's a supercharger, instead of where I want. And also be able to keep driving if I choose not to stop. On my drive home from WI in February I drove the last 450 miles without stopping. I don't do that a lot, but it's nice to be able to. And when I would travel with Parker the wonder dog it was nice to be able to stop at rest areas instead of service centers, because he didn't like the truck and auto noise at the service centers.

Just get me a battery pack with a 1,200-1,500 mile range and I'll hop on board!
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Wouldn't a BMW 328d wagon fit those parameters? You could always manual swap one if they only come here in
auto.
According to Edmunds the 2018 BMW 3 Series 328d wagon has a cargo capacity of 17.5 cu. ft. (CARGO CAPACITY, ALL SEATS IN PLACE). From the same source the 2015 Golf SportWagen TDI has a cargo capacity of 30.4 cu. ft.

Actually I was thinking more of a newer Passat size car but wagon. That is why I was saying about the 'reality check' and the almost impossibility of getting it in the US any time soon, or more likely never!
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
I guess it depends on where you live... the model 3 is already as mainstream as you can get around here, it's probably the single most common vehicle on the road. But I live in a small west coast college town... there's probably 15 MKIV TDIs in this town for every F150.
"Tesla Model 3 Was #1 Top Selling Car In California In 2nd Half Of 2018" https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/2...nia-in-2nd-half-of-2018-cleantechnica-report/
Look at the cost of filling up your tank with gasoline, diesel, etc. and you will see accordingly fuel efficient vehicles, many, some or almost none.
 
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