Effects of burning fossil fuels:

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bwlyon

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Global Warming is Only a Theory

First, before I am strung up an hanged by the TDI masses, I like clean air, water, and soil. With that said, I submit that GW is only a THEORY!!! You see there is a little thing in the scientific community called the scientific method. Scientists use this little method to prove their theory. It goes like this, first you have or think you have a problem, second you develop a hypothesis of what is causing the problem, third you test your hypothesis to see if your hypothesis is correct; if your hypothesis is proved correct it becomes law. On the other hand, if the results from the test are not proven you go back to the drawing board to retest the theory by changing a variable until theory is proven to be fact. Otherwise it remains a theory, and that is exactly what GW is a THEORY. If GW was a proven fact there would be no opposing veiws on the subject of GW. Right now all we have are a bunch of of scientists, polititians, and environmentalist wackos spewing out poppy cock, and until someone proves that GW actually exists using the scientific method there will always be discord concerning GW.
With that said, I say the government should loosen the emmisions requirements for diesel cars and trucks, so that the diesel engine can get maximum fuel economy. Thereby reducing our use of foreign oil. Personally I would rather deal with a little more soot coming out of my tail pipe than have our young men and women in uniform serving in Iraq, which has everything to do with oil. Also, like has been said before here a little good advertising and equal gas and diesel prices at the pumps, the diesel powered cars would fly of the show room floors. I could be wrong sometimes us Americans are a little hard headed.
People fossil fuels and CO2 are not causing global warming. If that were the case, when Mt. St. Helens erupted in the 1980s we would all be dead, for when it erupted it belched more carbon, sulfur, CO2, and god knows what all else in one belch, than we humans have ever created in our whole existance.
OK let the lynching begin.
 

nicklockard

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bwlyon said:
First, before I am strung up an hanged by the TDI masses, I like clean air, water, and soil. With that said, I submit that GW is only a THEORY!!! You see there is a little thing in the scientific community called the scientific method. Scientists use this little method to prove their theory. It goes like this, first you have or think you have a problem, second you develop a hypothesis of what is causing the problem, third you test your hypothesis to see if your hypothesis is correct; if your hypothesis is proved correct it becomes law. On the other hand, if the results from the test are not proven you go back to the drawing board to retest the theory by changing a variable until theory is proven to be fact. Otherwise it remains a theory, and that is exactly what GW is a THEORY. If GW was a proven fact there would be no opposing veiws on the subject of GW. Right now all we have are a bunch of of scientists, polititians, and environmentalist wackos spewing out poppy cock, and until someone proves that GW actually exists using the scientific method there will always be discord concerning GW.
With that said, I say the government should loosen the emmisions requirements for diesel cars and trucks, so that the diesel engine can get maximum fuel economy. Thereby reducing our use of foreign oil. Personally I would rather deal with a little more soot coming out of my tail pipe than have our young men and women in uniform serving in Iraq, which has everything to do with oil. Also, like has been said before here a little good advertising and equal gas and diesel prices at the pumps, the diesel powered cars would fly of the show room floors. I could be wrong sometimes us Americans are a little hard headed.
People fossil fuels and CO2 are not causing global warming. If that were the case, when Mt. St. Helens erupted in the 1980s we would all be dead, for when it erupted it belched more carbon, sulfur, CO2, and god knows what all else in one belch, than we humans have ever created in our whole existance.
OK let the lynching begin.
1st lynching: Newton's theory of gravity. Yes, not a law yet, only a theory.

Do you doubt gravity too? This argument you make has a hole you can drive a Mack truck through. You speciously argue that "theories" are somehow weak...that's probably because like many, you are confusing a "hypothesis" for a theory.

Quantum mechanics is a theory, not a law, yet we have built lasers and use quantum mechanics every day to perform spectroscopy.

Newton's theory of gravity is a theory, yet we use it to sucessfully predict the parabolic arc of your softball and launch rockets every single time, without failure.

Einstein's theory of Special Relativity has been tested, and clocks have been found to run faster on airplanes than on the ground, but since it's only a "theory", I guess you think it's crap...

If you seriously doubt scientific theories, you should not even leave your bed in the morning, because nearly every single action you do or partake in...is governed by such scientific theories...but I guess they're all crap, huh?
 

nicklockard

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40X40 said:
Careful Drew,

Someone will accuse you of being a DENIER, a Limbaugh fan, a Listener

of O'Reilly, or even, 'gasp' , a greedy American.:eek: :D :D :D

Seriously, Thanks for the links!
No, he just proves yet again that he does not understand what an AVERAGE is.:rolleyes: Are people REALLY this dumb or is it an act?
 
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TornadoRed

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nicklockard said:
1st lynching: Newton's theory of gravity. Yes, not a law yet, only a theory.
(snip)
If you seriously doubt scientific theories, you should not even leave your bed in the morning, because nearly every single action you do or partake in...is governed by such scientific theories...but I guess they're all crap, huh?
Stephen Hawking has written:
"Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory. As philosopher of science Karl Popper has emphasized, a good theory is characterized by the fact that it makes a number of predictions that could in principle be disproved or falsified by observation. Each time new experiments are observed to agree with the predictions the theory survives, and our confidence in it is increased; but if ever a new observation is found to disagree, we have to abandon or modify the theory."

When you can express a theory in the form of a simple equation

which explains the real physical world accurately 99.9% of the time, it's validity approaches the status of a law.

There are a number of exogenous factors that can explain changes in global temperature -- the most obvious one being variations in solar output. If solar output explains 99.9% of climate change, we can and should examine the causes of the other 0.1%, but we probably don't need to spend 10-25% of gross world product in an attempt to influence or control that other 0.1% -- that is, in effect, what some individuals and organizations are advocating.
 

snoopis

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LongWayHome said:
$10,000, wowzers! And AEI received $1.6million from ExxonMobil.

I didn't read the whole thread, so forgive me if someone has already brought this up.

What about Richard Branson giving $3billion to support global warming, the Sierra Club's annual budget of $91mil, Natural Resource Defense Council's $57mil? Why don't we hear about James Hansen's $250k from the Heinz Foundation, or the fact that Michael Oppenheimer is paid by Environmental Defense Fund? This global warming thing is being funded by socialist governments around the world, the UN, environmental groups, and others who have much to benefit. The media gets their knickers in a twist over $10k from ExxonMobil, but what do you hear about funding of the other side of the debate? It's like Exxon can buy a scientist for $10k, but some global group of governments and tree-hugger organizations can't outbid them? :confused:


Maybe, just maybe, someone who has competing interests SHOULD "emphasise the shortcomings of a report from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)." Is that such a bad thing? If everything is what they make it out to be, they shouldn't care.

Of course, it's hard to find people willing to do that when you take the risk of being slandered as a "denier" and having your credentials taken away like Heidi Cullen has suggested. War crimes trials and death penalties as suggested by her friend Dave Roberts?

Weather Channel Climate Expert Calls for Decertifying Global Warming Skeptics

AMS CERTIFIED WEATHERMAN STRIKES BACK AT WEATHER CHANNEL CALL FOR DECERTIFICATION
 

WDM

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I find all the denial and ignorance about "global warming" a sad comment on a portion of humanity. With all the "proof" available now and with all testimony by countless esteemed scientist worldwide that most of global warming is a man-made phenomenon, some still think it's a sham and not worthy of any action. The planet has experienced deviations in it's solar orientation and consequently warming and cooling trends many times in it's history but over the course of thousands of years, not a couple of hundred. It doesn't really matter what anyone in here has to say either way really... Suffice it to say that if you have children they will most probably not only see an oil-free "civilization" in their lifetimes but a radically different world in general (and not in a good way) from the one we inhabit now whether the nay sayers care to believe it or not. No brains, no headache...
 
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snoopis

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When you continually slander and intimidate anyone who disagrees with you, it's only natural that people will think it's a sham. People in a position to influence major policy changes, scientists who know this stuff in and out, should be begging someone to prove them wrong. But perhaps they are afraid of something...
 

kpaske

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snoopis said:
People in a position to influence major policy changes, scientists who know this stuff in and out, should be begging someone to prove them wrong. But perhaps they are afraid of something...
I think most scientists want to spend their time discussing science, not policy changes. REAL scientists DO beg to be proven wrong when they publish their work in scientific journals for peer review. Most politicians and journalists don't have the background or experience to fully understand the science, and very few bother to thoroughly review their sources.
 
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nicklockard

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Cable television has done a wonderful job of cultivating a fear, uncertainty, and doubt of science. Misinformation, fallacious thinking, and logically derived conclusions from faulty premise' are easily amplified! It's pretty easy to dumb things down...when you present information as 'entertainment', some honesty has to give.
 

TornadoRed

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WDM said:
The planet has experienced deviations in it's solar orientation and consequently warming and cooling trends many times in it's history but over the course of thousands of years, not a couple of hundred.
That's not exactly true. The story of the last several ice ages is pretty well documented. This graph shows how rapidly temperatures cooled and glaciers formed, though the scale doesn't really show how many years it took to reach minimum temperatures. It's clear though that the earth cooled much quicker than it warmed.

 

BioDiesel

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"If solar output explains 99.9% of climate change, we can and should examine the causes of the other 0.1%, but we probably don't need to spend 10-25% of gross world product in an attempt to influence or control that other 0.1% -- that is, in effect, what some individuals and organizations are advocating."

This was covered earlier. Even the proponents of solar warming think it contributes only 10 - 30% of g.w. The rest is human activity.
http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2005/09/sunwarm.html
 
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WDM

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TornadoRed said:
That's not exactly true.
If we were "cooling" then recent events would seem somewhat more statistically "natural" but still highly accelerated. We're not "cooling" though, are we? Even the cooling trends took thousands of years so my statement was in fact exactly correct, or at the very least a hell of a lot closer to "exactly correct" than a lot of the blather and ignorance in this thread... ;)
 
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SuburbanTDI

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The Duke study, which seeks to downplay the role of the sun in effecting global warming, is far from the most rigourous study on the subject.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/18/ixnewstop.html

Global warming has finally been explained: the Earth is getting hotter because the Sun is burning more brightly than at any time during the past 1,000 years, according to new research.
.
Dr Sami Solanki, the director of the renowned Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Gottingen, Germany, who led the research, said: "The Sun has been at its strongest over the past 60 years and may now be affecting global temperatures.
"The Sun is in a changed state. It is brighter than it was a few hundred years ago and this brightening started relatively recently - in the last 100 to 150 years."
Dr Solanki said that the brighter Sun and higher levels of "greenhouse gases", such as carbon dioxide, both contributed to the change in the Earth's temperature but it was impossible to say which had the greater impact.

Globally, 1997, 1998 and 2002 were the hottest years since worldwide weather records were first collated in 1860.
Most scientists agree that greenhouse gases from fossil fuels have contributed to the warming of the planet in the past few decades but have questioned whether a brighter Sun is also responsible for rising temperatures.
To determine the Sun's role in global warming, Dr Solanki's research team measured magnetic zones on the Sun's surface known as sunspots, which are believed to intensify the Sun's energy output.
The team studied sunspot data going back several hundred years. They found that a dearth of sunspots signalled a cold period - which could last up to 50 years - but that over the past century their numbers had increased as the Earth's climate grew steadily warmer. The scientists also compared data from ice samples collected during an expedition to Greenland in 1991. The most recent samples contained the lowest recorded levels of beryllium 10 for more than 1,000 years. Beryllium 10 is a particle created by cosmic rays that decreases in the Earth's atmosphere as the magnetic energy from the Sun increases. Scientists can currently trace beryllium 10 levels back 1,150 years.
Dr Solanki does not know what is causing the Sun to burn brighter now or how long this cycle would last.
He says that the increased solar brightness over the past 20 years has not been enough to cause the observed climate changes but believes that the impact of more intense sunshine on the ozone layer and on cloud cover could be affecting the climate more than the sunlight itself.
Dr Bill Burrows, a climatologist and a member of the Royal Meteorological Society, welcomed Dr Solanki's research. "While the established view remains that the sun cannot be responsible for all the climate changes we have seen in the past 50 years or so, this study is certainly significant," he said.
"It shows that there is enough happening on the solar front to merit further research. Perhaps we are devoting too many resources to correcting human effects on the climate without being sure that we are the major contributor."
Dr David Viner, the senior research scientist at the University of East Anglia's climatic research unit, said the research showed that the sun did have an effect on global warming.

The research adds weight to the views of David Bellamy, the conservationist. "Global warming - at least the modern nightmare version - is a myth," he said. "I am sure of it and so are a growing number of scientists. But what is really worrying is that the world's politicians and policy-makers are not.
"Instead, they have an unshakeable faith in what has, unfortunately, become one of the central credos of the environmental movement: humans burn fossil fuels, which release increased levels of carbon dioxide - the principal so-called greenhouse gas - into the atmosphere, causing the atmosphere to heat up. They say this is global warming: I say this is poppycock."
 

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WDM said:
If we were "cooling" then recent events would seem somewhat more statistically "natural" but still highly accelerated. We're not "cooling" though, are we?
We are not cooling, and that is a very good thing. Man can adapt to a slightly warmer planet -- not so many people will have to travel to the Mediterranean or Florida or Hawaii to get away from the cold and snows of Northern Europe and the Snow Belt of the US and Canada.

We are speaking of CO2, are we not? About 300 ppm in the atmosphere, or 0.030%, leaving 99.970% for everything else?

I could also mention the continuing debate between correlation and causation. Or I could link to this map showing global cooling a few decades ago, and ask why did this happen even though CO2 concentrations were rising at the time?

 

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Dimitri16V said:
If UN is corrupt , why only the US didn 't agree to the Kyoto agreement ?
Get of the "patriotic" bandwagon , the US is part of this planet too and we contribute to more emmissions than any othet country. We all agree the reason we drive diesels is to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels .
We indirectly help against global warming.
US was not the only coutnry not to agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kyoto_Protocol_signatories
 

BioDiesel

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re: 'poppycock'

Lets see what Wikipedia says about Mr. Bellamy......

"In 2004, he wrote an article in the Daily Mail in which he described the theory of man-made global warming as
"poppycock" [1]. A letter he published in New Scientist (16 April 2005) asserted that a large percentage (555 of
625) of the glaciers being observed by the World Glacier Monitoring Service were advancing, not retreating. However, Bellamy's figures were incorrect: the vast majority of the world's glaciers have been retreating for the
last several decades. George Monbiot of the Guardian tracked down Bellamy's original source for this information
and found that it was Fred Singer's website. Singer claimed to have obtained these figures from a 1989 article in
the journal Science, but to date this article has not been found.[1] Bellamy has since admitted that the figures on
glaciers were wrong, and announced in a letter to The Sunday Times on 29 May 2005 [2] that he had "decided to draw
back from the debate on global warming" [3]. However he has not withdrawn his assertions about the causes of global
warming."

Hmmm... what kind of person does research by quoting webpages?
[/toungeincheek]

George Monbiot investigated Bellamy's glacier claims and found...
"
So last week I telephoned the World Glacier Monitoring Service and read out Bellamy's letter. I don't think the
response would have been published in Nature, but it had the scientific virtue of clarity. "This is complete
bull****."(3) A few hours later, they sent me an email.

"Despite his scientific reputation, he makes all the mistakes that are possible". He had cited data which was
simply false, failed to provide references, completely misunderstood the scientific context and neglected current
scientific literature.(4) The latest studies show unequivocally that most of the world's glaciers are
retreating.(5)"

But wait! There's more....
Monbiot finally tracked down the figures, but they claimed 55% of glaciers were growing, yet Bellamy claimed 555 glaciers were growing. ????

" So it wasn't looking too good for Bellamy, or Singer, or any of the deniers who have cited these figures. But there
was still one mystery to clear up. While Bellamy's source claimed that 55% of 625 glaciers are advancing, Bellamy
claimed that 555 of them - or 89% - are advancing. This figure appears to exist nowhere else. But on the standard
English keyboard, 5 and % occupy the same key. If you try to hit %, but fail to press shift, you get 555, instead
of 55%. This is the only explanation I can produce for his figure. When I challenged him, he admitted that there
had been "a glitch of the electronics".(17)"

So Bellamy can't even type!!!!!!!!
[bold]He's a complete BOZO! [/bigrednose][/bold]

As are all those who share his v-yeews. [/glitchoftheelectronics]

I'm compiling a g.w. 'Hall of Shame'.
He's the first inductee.




""
 
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GoFaster

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mparker326 said:
Brian: Excellent suggestions. Here's one for you. How about replacing the roadrace bike on your trailer with a commuter bike?

How about a couple other low hanging fruit:

Go inside instead of waiting at the drive thru.
Move closer to work.
I make no pretenses about being absolutely perfect in terms of energy consumption. It is not my goal in life to consume zero resources above all else, because if that were the goal, the most expedient way to achieve it is to stop living, and that's not in the plans. I live life the way I want to live it and I do the things I want to do, I just do them in a way that has a view towards reducing consumption when practical.

By the way, I already have a street-ridden motorcycle as well as the track bike. Tidbit: The track bike uses around 10 litres of fuel at an average track day, and I do about 10 a year. Total ~ 100 litres per year. Getting to and from the track uses around 4 times more. Stuff like this pales in comparison to the daily grind. I'm stuck with doing around 60,000 km of driving per year for work (consulting job, customers are all over the place). That uses vastly more. By the way, I don't use drive-thrus.

You don't complain about my track bike ... then I won't complain about your vacation to Hawaii in a jetliner that uses more fuel per person than my entire year's allocation for my track bike in one shot, nor will I complain about your scenic cruise ship adventure aboard that enormous oil-burning ship that uses untold gallons per mile! We can't just crawl into a hole or up a tree and stay there in the name of reducing energy consumption ...

One local environmentalist put it this way: we have to conserve, but we have to live, too, so "eat, drink, and be merry ... while you still can."
 

TornadoRed

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Whether 55% of glaciers are advancing or retreating is not terribly important. Just as the climate is constanting in flux -- always getting either hotter or colder, never staying the same -- so also will the percentage of the Earth that's covered by ice.

We know that it was once possible to walk across the Bering Strait from Siberia to Alaska, and possibly across the English Channel from continental Europe to the British Isles, because sea levels were so much lower. Why not now? The Earth warmed up, glaciers melted, and the sea level rose.

We also know that the sea level rose about 6" during the 20th century, and that reasonable estimates suggest another 12" during the 21st century.

Edit: if glaciers were advancing, I'd be more worried.
 

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LongWayHome said:
There are some pretty illustrations here too, if you like that sort of thing...
www.ipcc.ch/pub/spm22-01.pdf (Acrobat/pdf file)
This response avoids the question. Let me restate it: In the face of a dramatic and compelling rise in CO2, Global Warming Theory says global temperatures rise, yet global temperatures declined during the 10 year period 1965-1975, because........?

The impact of increasing atmospheric CO2/Greenhouse gases is far too complex to accurately predict and for the most part the predictions being made should be called what they really are, guesses (how educated the guesses are is debatable). Doesn't sound so scary when you hear that so and so's Guess is that sealevels will rise 3 feet in 50 years. My guess is that they won't. We (United States) should not support crippling our economy to chase speculative, possibly illusory benefits, I do not care what the UN or the rest of the world does. Besides, global CO2 production will continue to rise, or at least continue at present high levels for the foreseeable future, so if Global Warming Theory is correct we will see a lot more warming no matter what we do.
 

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We know that it was once possible to walk across the Bering Strait from Siberia to Alaska, and possibly across the English Channel from continental Europe to the British Isles, because sea levels were so much lower. Why not now? The Earth warmed up, glaciers melted, and the sea level rose.
The Earth used to be a fiery hell-hole of volcanic activity... maybe we can get back to that... those were the good old days.

The point is: There is natural climate change and man-made climate change. Sorry... global warming is a fact. Greenhouse gasses are real. WE are producing a lot of them. WE are having a detrimental effect on the climate of our planet. It ain't Jesus coming back, folks... it's us f***ing up the environment.

I live life the way I want to live it and I do the things I want to do, I just do them in a way that has a view towards reducing consumption when practical.
If everybody really did that, we would all be better off. Unfortunately, most people would have stopped at "I live life the way I want to live it and I do the things I want to do." Most people are not smart enough to understand what is going on... in the environment, in Iraq, in Iran, in Washington DC, in their neighbor's back yard. We have people who are specialized in certain fields... they are called experts, doctors, mechanics, computer programmers, electricians, scientists, etc. When a doctor says you are sick, you listen. When an electrician says you have a wiring problem, you listen. When a scientist says you have a global catastophe in progress, you listen.
 

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so if Global Warming Theory is correct
Global warming is as much of a theory as gravity. Scientists cannot fully explain how or why gravity works. Maybe it doesn't really exist.

It is a fact that we are putting a lot of "greenhouse gasses" in to the atmosphere. It is a fact that these gasses trap heat from the sun. The only uncertain part is how this will effect our climate on a local level, and how soon it will happen. Hell, for fun, why don't we just keep on the same course and we'll find out soon enough!
 

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McBrew said:
The Earth used to be a fiery hell-hole of volcanic activity... maybe we can get back to that... those were the good old days.

The point is: There is natural climate change and man-made climate change. Sorry... global warming is a fact. Greenhouse gasses are real. WE are producing a lot of them. WE are having a detrimental effect on the climate of our planet. It ain't Jesus coming back, folks... it's us f***ing up the environment.



If everybody really did that, we would all be better off. Unfortunately, most people would have stopped at "I live life the way I want to live it and I do the things I want to do." Most people are not smart enough to understand what is going on... in the environment, in Iraq, in Iran, in Washington DC, in their neighbor's back yard. We have people who are specialized in certain fields... they are called experts, doctors, mechanics, computer programmers, electricians, scientists, etc. When a doctor says you are sick, you listen. When an electrician says you have a wiring problem, you listen. When a scientist says you have a global catastophe in progress, you listen.


As a marine biologist, I have to say that YEs, there are daily fluctuations in sea temperatures, yearly fluctuations, and other cyclical changes that are normal.

HOWEVER, The recent changes in atmospheric CO2, averge temperatures, Glacier locations and size, and number of hurricaines , Etc .... each and by themselves may not raise a big alarm; But together....with all alarms going off at the same time, well, common sense says that something is wrong. I went glass bottom boating in Florida Keys, and all the coral were dead or dying. :(

If you hear the smoke alarm going off, it may be a bad connection or battery running low.
If you feel heat, it may just be a hot flash,
If you smell smoke, it may just be supper is overcooked,
If you see flames, it could be too much wood in the fire place.
If a kid knocks on your door and says there is a fire, it could just be a prank

BUT if all of these happen at the same time, then I think one should seriously consider running !!!! :D

IT is an Inconvenient Truth ....... Disclosure: Al Gore's work on raising awareness of global warming is commendable and visionary. I think all should watch the movie DVD An Inconvenient Truth. I did not vote for Clinton ticket. I vote my conscience. :)
 

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fixer said:
This response avoids the question. Let me restate it: In the face of a dramatic and compelling rise in CO2, Global Warming Theory says global temperatures rise, yet global temperatures declined during the 10 year period 1965-1975, because........?

The impact of increasing atmospheric CO2/Greenhouse gases is far too complex to accurately predict and for the most part the predictions being made should be called what they really are, guesses (how educated the guesses are is debatable). Doesn't sound so scary when you hear that so and so's Guess is that sealevels will rise 3 feet in 50 years. My guess is that they won't. We (United States) should not support crippling our economy to chase speculative, possibly illusory benefits, I do not care what the UN or the rest of the world does. Besides, global CO2 production will continue to rise, or at least continue at present high levels for the foreseeable future, so if Global Warming Theory is correct we will see a lot more warming no matter what we do.
The answer to the question is pretty obvious. I wasn't avoiding it. It's called an anomaly. Obviously there are other factors involved in climate change besides manmade carbon emissions. The fact that there was a temporary period of cooling from 1965-1975 (as compared to 1937-1946) is interesting, but it doesn't mean climate change isn't happening. (Where did this illustration come from by the way?) Numerous scientific studies have concluded that there is a direct correlation between carbon emissions and changes taking place with the earth's climate.

The idea that we need to cripple our economy to have any effect on global warming is false. Renewable energy producers already know this. Many large companies are starting to see that it is not in their best interest to ignore the issue of climate change. BP is investing millions of dollars in renewable sources of energy. Is it because they are good samaritans? Here's evidence of changes in corporate attitudes toward the issue: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/23/CEOCLIMATE.TMP
 

nicklockard

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fixer said:
Doesn't sound so scary when you hear that so and so's Guess is that sealevels will rise 3 feet in 50 years. (snipped) We (United States) should not support crippling our economy to chase speculative, possibly illusory benefits...
Have you ANY remote idea how incredibly crippled our economy will be by sea levels rising 3 feet???:confused: ! Even over 50 years...Trillion$ and Trillion$ of infrastructure, roads, land, resources will be covered in water.

That doesn't sound scary to you?:confused: :confused: :confused:

Wake the **** up!!!
 

nicklockard

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McBrew said:
It is a fact that we are putting a lot of "greenhouse gasses" in to the atmosphere. It is a fact that these gasses trap heat from the sun. The only uncertain part is how this will effect our climate on a local level, and how soon it will happen. Hell, for fun, why don't we just keep on the same course and we'll find out soon enough!
I once had a conversation with a very attractive young blonde in the coffee shop accross from Engineering Row at OSU. Somehow the subject turned to Global Climate change....as it turned out, that week in chemistry lab ch362, we were studying the vibrational modes of CO2 and other molecules with FTIR spectroscopy (or rather, CO2 was a contaminant in some of our samples and we studied it as a tangent to the main lecture/lesson.) This beautiful young woman made the claim in her belief that GW didn't matter anyway...because God would save us:eek: Save us from our own stupidity, I asked? Yes.:eek: So then there's no point to having free will if every time we screw up, God will save us from the consequences? :blank stare: People will justify anything to avoid a sense of shared responsibility...really goes to show you responsiblity is a non-universal character trait! But her invoking the "God argument" really floored me:eek: :confused:


Edit for spelling corrections.
 
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nicklockard

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LongWayHome said:
The idea that we need to cripple our economy to have any effect on global warming is false.
Yes. It is false. Please stop using your FUD and Straw Man fallacies to pretend anyone remotely credible said we should cripple our economy.
 

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A powerful and famous speech given not too long ago, it dovetails well with the comments of Patrick Moore, Greenpeace co-founder, “The environmental movement I helped found has lost its objectivity, morality and humanity.”
:

[FONT=helvetica,]"Environmentalism as Religion"

by Michael Crichton
Commonwealth Club
San Francisco, CA




I have been asked to talk about what I consider the most important challenge facing mankind, and I have a fundamental answer. The greatest challenge facing mankind is the challenge of distinguishing reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda. Perceiving the truth has always been a challenge to mankind, but in the information age (or as I think of it, the disinformation age) it takes on a special urgency and importance.

We must daily decide whether the threats we face are real, whether the solutions we are offered will do any good, whether the problems we're told exist are in fact real problems, or non-problems. Every one of us has a sense of the world, and we all know that this sense is in part given to us by what other people and society tell us; in part generated by our emotional state, which we project outward; and in part by our genuine perceptions of reality. In short, our struggle to determine what is true is the struggle to decide which of our perceptions are genuine, and which are false because they are handed down, or sold to us, or generated by our own hopes and fears.

As an example of this challenge, I want to talk today about environmentalism. And in order not to be misunderstood, I want it perfectly clear that I believe it is incumbent on us to conduct our lives in a way that takes into account all the consequences of our actions, including the consequences to other people, and the consequences to the environment. I believe it is important to act in ways that are sympathetic to the environment, and I believe this will always be a need, carrying into the future. I believe the world has genuine problems and I believe it can and should be improved. But I also think that deciding what constitutes responsible action is immensely difficult, and the consequences of our actions are often difficult to know in advance. I think our past record of environmental action is discouraging, to put it mildly, because even our best intended efforts often go awry. But I think we do not recognize our past failures, and face them squarely. And I think I know why.

I studied anthropology in college, and one of the things I learned was that certain human social structures always reappear. They can't be eliminated from society. One of those structures is religion. Today it is said we live in a secular society in which many people---the best people, the most enlightened people---do not believe in any religion. But I think that you cannot eliminate religion from the psyche of mankind. If you suppress it in one form, it merely re-emerges in another form. You can not believe in God, but you still have to believe in something that gives meaning to your life, and shapes your sense of the world. Such a belief is religious.

Today, one of the most powerful religions in the Western World is environmentalism. Environmentalism seems to be the religion of choice for urban atheists. Why do I say it's a religion? Well, just look at the beliefs. If you look carefully, you see that environmentalism is in fact a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths.

There's an initial Eden, a paradise, a state of grace and unity with nature, there's a fall from grace into a state of pollution as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge, and as a result of our actions there is a judgment day coming for us all. We are all energy sinners, doomed to die, unless we seek salvation, which is now called sustainability. Sustainability is salvation in the church of the environment. Just as organic food is its communion, that pesticide-free wafer that the right people with the right beliefs, imbibe.

Eden, the fall of man, the loss of grace, the coming doomsday---these are deeply held mythic structures. They are profoundly conservative beliefs. They may even be hard-wired in the brain, for all I know. I certainly don't want to talk anybody out of them, as I don't want to talk anybody out of a belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God who rose from the dead. But the reason I don't want to talk anybody out of these beliefs is that I know that I can't talk anybody out of them. These are not facts that can be argued. These are issues of faith.

And so it is, sadly, with environmentalism. Increasingly it seems facts aren't necessary, because the tenets of environmentalism are all about belief. It's about whether you are going to be a sinner, or saved. Whether you are going to be one of the people on the side of salvation, or on the side of doom. Whether you are going to be one of us, or one of them.

Am I exaggerating to make a point? I am afraid not. Because we know a lot more about the world than we did forty or fifty years ago. And what we know now is not so supportive of certain core environmental myths, yet the myths do not die. Let's examine some of those beliefs.

There is no Eden. There never was. What was that Eden of the wonderful mythic past? Is it the time when infant mortality was 80%, when four children in five died of disease before the age of five? When one woman in six died in childbirth? When the average lifespan was 40, as it was in America a century ago. When plagues swept across the planet, killing millions in a stroke. Was it when millions starved to death? Is that when it was Eden?

And what about indigenous peoples, living in a state of harmony with the Eden-like environment? Well, they never did. On this continent, the newly arrived people who crossed the land bridge almost immediately set about wiping out hundreds of species of large animals, and they did this several thousand years before the white man showed up, to accelerate the process. And what was the condition of life? Loving, peaceful, harmonious? Hardly: the early peoples of the New World lived in a state of constant warfare. Generations of hatred, tribal hatreds, constant battles. The warlike tribes of this continent are famous: the Comanche, Sioux, Apache, Mohawk, Aztecs, Toltec, Incas. Some of them practiced infanticide, and human sacrifice. And those tribes that were not fiercely warlike were exterminated, or learned to build their villages high in the cliffs to attain some measure of safety.

How about the human condition in the rest of the world? The Maori of New Zealand committed massacres regularly. The dyaks of Borneo were headhunters. The Polynesians, living in an environment as close to paradise as one can imagine, fought constantly, and created a society so hideously restrictive that you could lose your life if you stepped in the footprint of a chief. It was the Polynesians who gave us the very concept of taboo, as well as the word itself. The noble savage is a fantasy, and it was never true. That anyone still believes it, 200 years after Rousseau, shows the tenacity of religious myths, their ability to hang on in the face of centuries of factual contradiction.

There was even an academic movement, during the latter 20th century, that claimed that cannibalism was a white man's invention to demonize the indigenous peoples. (Only academics could fight such a battle.) It was some thirty years before professors finally agreed that yes, cannibalism does indeed occur among human beings. Meanwhile, all during this time New Guinea highlanders in the 20th century continued to eat the brains of their enemies until they were finally made to understand that they risked kuru, a fatal neurological disease, when they did so.

More recently still the gentle Tasaday of the Philippines turned out to be a publicity stunt, a nonexistent tribe. And African pygmies have one of the highest murder rates on the planet.

In short, the romantic view of the natural world as a blissful Eden is only held by people who have no actual experience of nature. People who live in nature are not romantic about it at all. They may hold spiritual beliefs about the world around them, they may have a sense of the unity of nature or the aliveness of all things, but they still kill the animals and uproot the plants in order to eat, to live. If they don't, they will die.

And if you, even now, put yourself in nature even for a matter of days, you will quickly be disabused of all your romantic fantasies. Take a trek through the jungles of Borneo, and in short order you will have festering sores on your skin, you'll have bugs all over your body, biting in your hair, crawling up your nose and into your ears, you'll have infections and sickness and if you're not with somebody who knows what they're doing, you'll quickly starve to death. But chances are that even in the jungles of Borneo you won't experience nature so directly, because you will have covered your entire body with DEET and you will be doing everything you can to keep those bugs off you.

The truth is, almost nobody wants to experience real nature. What people want is to spend a week or two in a cabin in the woods, with screens on the windows. They want a simplified life for a while, without all their stuff. Or a nice river rafting trip for a few days, with somebody else doing the cooking. Nobody wants to go back to nature in any real way, and nobody does. It's all talk-and as the years go on, and the world population grows increasingly urban, it's uninformed talk. Farmers know what they're talking about. City people don't. It's all fantasy.

One way to measure the prevalence of fantasy is to note the number of people who die because they haven't the least knowledge of how nature really is. They stand beside wild animals, like buffalo, for a picture and get trampled to death; they climb a mountain in dicey weather without proper gear, and freeze to death. They drown in the surf on holiday because they can't conceive the real power of what we blithely call "the force of nature." They have seen the ocean. But they haven't been in it.

The television generation expects nature to act the way they want it to be. They think all life experiences can be tivo-ed. The notion that the natural world obeys its own rules and doesn't give a damn about your expectations comes as a massive shock. Well-to-do, educated people in an urban environment experience the ability to fashion their daily lives as they wish. They buy clothes that suit their taste, and decorate their apartments as they wish. Within limits, they can contrive a daily urban world that pleases them.

But the natural world is not so malleable. On the contrary, it will demand that you adapt to it-and if you don't, you die. It is a harsh, powerful, and unforgiving world, that most urban westerners have never experienced.

Many years ago I was trekking in the Karakorum mountains of northern Pakistan, when my group came to a river that we had to cross. It was a glacial river, freezing cold, and it was running very fast, but it wasn't deep---maybe three feet at most. My guide set out ropes for people to hold as they crossed the river, and everybody proceeded, one at a time, with extreme care. I asked the guide what was the big deal about crossing a three-foot river. He said, well, supposing you fell and suffered a compound fracture. We were now four days trek from the last big town, where there was a radio. Even if the guide went back double time to get help, it'd still be at least three days before he could return with a helicopter. If a helicopter were available at all. And in three days, I'd probably be dead from my injuries. So that was why everybody was crossing carefully. Because out in nature a little slip could be deadly.

But let's return to religion. If Eden is a fantasy that never existed, and mankind wasn't ever noble and kind and loving, if we didn't fall from grace, then what about the rest of the religious tenets? What about salvation, sustainability, and judgment day? What about the coming environmental doom from fossil fuels and global warming, if we all don't get down on our knees and conserve every day?

Well, it's interesting. You may have noticed that something has been left off the doomsday list, lately. Although the preachers of environmentalism have been yelling about population for fifty years, over the last decade world population seems to be taking an unexpected turn. Fertility rates are falling almost everywhere. As a result, over the course of my lifetime the thoughtful predictions for total world population have gone from a high of 20 billion, to 15 billion, to 11 billion (which was the UN estimate around 1990) to now 9 billion, and soon, perhaps less. There are some who think that world population will peak in 2050 and then start to decline. There are some who predict we will have fewer people in 2100 than we do today. Is this a reason to rejoice, to say halleluiah? Certainly not. Without a pause, we now hear about the coming crisis of world economy from a shrinking population. We hear about the impending crisis of an aging population. Nobody anywhere will say that the core fears expressed for most of my life have turned out not to be true. As we have moved into the future, these doomsday visions vanished, like a mirage in the desert. They were never there---though they still appear, in the future. As mirages do.

Okay, so, the preachers made a mistake. They got one prediction wrong; they're human. So what. Unfortunately, it's not just one prediction. It's a whole slew of them. We are running out of oil. We are running out of all natural resources. Paul Ehrlich: 60 million Americans will die of starvation in the 1980s. Forty thousand species become extinct every year. Half of all species on the planet will be extinct by 2000. And on and on and on.

With so many past failures, you might think that environmental predictions would become more cautious. But not if it's a religion. Remember, the nut on the sidewalk carrying the placard that predicts the end of the world doesn't quit when the world doesn't end on the day he expects. He just changes his placard, sets a new doomsday date, and goes back to walking the streets. One of the defining features of religion is that your beliefs are not troubled by facts, because they have nothing to do with facts.

So I can tell you some facts. I know you haven't read any of what I am about to tell you in the newspaper, because newspapers literally don't report them. I can tell you that DDT is not a carcinogen and did not cause birds to die and should never have been banned. I can tell you that the people who banned it knew that it wasn't carcinogenic and banned it anyway. I can tell you that the DDT ban has caused the deaths of tens of millions of poor people, mostly children, whose deaths are directly attributable to a callous, technologically advanced western society that promoted the new cause of environmentalism by pushing a fantasy about a pesticide, and thus irrevocably harmed the third world. Banning DDT is one of the most disgraceful episodes in the twentieth century history of America. We knew better, and we did it anyway, and we let people around the world die and didn't give a damn.

I can tell you that second hand smoke is not a health hazard to anyone and never was, and the EPA has always known it. I can tell you that the evidence for global warming is far weaker than its proponents would ever admit. I can tell you the percentage the US land area that is taken by urbanization, including cities and roads, is 5%. I can tell you that the Sahara desert is shrinking, and the total ice of Antarctica is increasing. I can tell you that a blue-ribbon panel in Science magazine concluded that there is no known technology that will enable us to halt the rise of carbon dioxide in the 21st century. Not wind, not solar, not even nuclear. The panel concluded a totally new technology-like nuclear fusion-was necessary, otherwise nothing could be done and in the meantime all efforts would be a waste of time. They said that when the UN IPCC reports stated alternative technologies existed that could control greenhouse gases, the UN was wrong.

I can, with a lot of time, give you the factual basis for these views, and I can cite the appropriate journal articles not in whacko magazines, but in the most prestigious science journals, such as Science and Nature. But such references probably won't impact more than a handful of you, because the beliefs of a religion are not dependent on facts, but rather are matters of faith. Unshakeable belief.

Most of us have had some experience interacting with religious fundamentalists, and we understand that one of the problems with fundamentalists is that they have no perspective on themselves. They never recognize that their way of thinking is just one of many other possible ways of thinking, which may be equally useful or good. On the contrary, they believe their way is the right way, everyone else is wrong; they are in the business of salvation, and they want to help you to see things the right way. They want to help you be saved. They are totally rigid and totally uninterested in opposing points of view. In our modern complex world, fundamentalism is dangerous because of its rigidity and its imperviousness to other ideas.

I want to argue that it is now time for us to make a major shift in our thinking about the environment, similar to the shift that occurred around the first Earth Day in 1970, when this awareness was first heightened. But this time around, we need to get environmentalism out of the sphere of religion. We need to stop the mythic fantasies, and we need to stop the doomsday predictions. We need to start doing hard science instead.

There are two reasons why I think we all need to get rid of the religion of environmentalism.

First, we need an environmental movement, and such a movement is not very effective if it is conducted as a religion. We know from history that religions tend to kill people, and environmentalism has already killed somewhere between 10-30 million people since the 1970s. It's not a good record. Environmentalism needs to be absolutely based in objective and verifiable science, it needs to be rational, and it needs to be flexible. And it needs to be apolitical. To mix environmental concerns with the frantic fantasies that people have about one political party or another is to miss the cold truth---that there is very little difference between the parties, except a difference in pandering rhetoric. The effort to promote effective legislation for the environment is not helped by thinking that the Democrats will save us and the Republicans won't. Political history is more complicated than that. Never forget which president started the EPA: Richard Nixon. And never forget which president sold federal oil leases, allowing oil drilling in Santa Barbara: Lyndon Johnson. So get politics out of your thinking about the environment.

The second reason to abandon environmental religion is more pressing. Religions think they know it all, but the unhappy truth of the environment is that we are dealing with incredibly complex, evolving systems, and we usually are not certain how best to proceed. Those who are certain are demonstrating their personality type, or their belief system, not the state of their knowledge. Our record in the past, for example managing national parks, is humiliating. Our fifty-year effort at forest-fire suppression is a well-intentioned disaster from which our forests will never recover. We need to be humble, deeply humble, in the face of what we are trying to accomplish. We need to be trying various methods of accomplishing things. We need to be open-minded about assessing results of our efforts, and we need to be flexible about balancing needs. Religions are good at none of these things.

How will we manage to get environmentalism out of the clutches of religion, and back to a scientific discipline? There's a simple answer: we must institute far more stringent requirements for what constitutes knowledge in the environmental realm. I am thoroughly sick of politicized so-called facts that simply aren't true. It isn't that these "facts" are exaggerations of an underlying truth. Nor is it that certain organizations are spinning their case to present it in the strongest way. Not at all---what more and more groups are doing is putting out is lies, pure and simple. Falsehoods that they know to be false.

This trend began with the DDT campaign, and it persists to this day. At this moment, the EPA is hopelessly politicized. In the wake of Carol Browner, it is probably better to shut it down and start over. What we need is a new organization much closer to the FDA. We need an organization that will be ruthless about acquiring verifiable results, that will fund identical research projects to more than one group, and that will make everybody in this field get honest fast.

Because in the end, science offers us the only way out of politics. And if we allow science to become politicized, then we are lost. We will enter the Internet version of the dark ages, an era of shifting fears and wild prejudices, transmitted to people who don't know any better. That's not a good future for the human race. That's our past. So it's time to abandon the religion of environmentalism, and return to the science of environmentalism, and base our public policy decisions firmly on that.

Thank you very much.
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