Effects of burning fossil fuels:

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TornadoRed

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blacka5 said:
Global warming will entail costs, and that not facing up to it in a timely manner will be economic suicide.
Maybe.
Or at least render us less competitive than those who do take it seriously.
Probably not.

Dealing with it won't be cheap, will definitely entail change (which is never fun), but will be less traumatic and less expensive than sticking our head in the sand and our ass in the air.
Almost certainly not.
 

DRbillZ

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"The sky is fallling, the sky is falling".

It's called 'Cyclical changes' and it's called N O R M A L !


The people that are purporting "Global Warming" are using it as a blanket blackmail to extort $$. Nothing new there from the people that live to extort $$.
 
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BioDiesel

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Re: 'cyclical changes'

The U.N. doesn't share your sanguine opinion:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16922234/

"...recent global warming was “very likely” caused by human activity — a significant change from an earlier report but less than the “virtually certain” phrase that some had championed."


PS. kitchen mathamaticians need to include thermal expansion when they calculate their own estimates of seal level rise.
 
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eli

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I think of it as "global comfortabling".
(thanks Sara Silverman for that idea).
 

DRbillZ

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BioDiesel said:
Re: 'cyclical changes'

The U.N. doesn't share your sanguine opinion:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16922234/

"...recent global warming was “very likely” caused by human activity — a significant change from an earlier report but less than the “virtually certain” phrase that some had championed."


PS. kitchen mathamaticians need to include thermal expansion when they calculate their own estimates of seal level rise.
And that suprises us how? From the people that brought you Iraqi oil deals during 'sanctions'?
It is amazing what some will believe when the term "intellectual discussion" is mentioned. Uh.............it's called brainwashing.
 
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TurboBenz

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DRbillZ said:
And that suprises us how? From the people that brought you Iraqi oil deals during 'sanctions'?
It is amazing what some will believe when the term "intellectual discussion" is mentioned. Uh.............it's called brainwashing.
So what do you know about Millankovich (probably not the right spelling) cycles and other solar variations? Please elaborate on these cyclical changes that we are experiencing using the astronomical evidence and terms that you are most likely very familiar with. Don't bother copying/pasting or refering me to a wikipedia site, I wan't to see YOUR opinion backed up with some REAL facts.

BTW: You are aware of the time frame that is involved in these cycles right?
 
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kpaske

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DRbillZ said:
And that suprises us how? From the people that brought you Iraqi oil deals during 'sanctions'?
It is amazing what some will believe when the term "intellectual discussion" is mentioned. Uh.............it's called brainwashing.
I'm curious about what you think would motivate the U.N. to want to brainwash you. What do they have to gain by reducing emissions besides cleaner air?
 

TornadoRed

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kpaske said:
I'm curious about what you think would motivate the U.N. to want to brainwash you. What do they have to gain by reducing emissions besides cleaner air?
Assume some kind of global rationing board, similar to what the US had during WWII (Britain too, and probably many other countries). The result was a black market, and a certain amount of corruption.

Multiply that by a billion or so if the UN gets its hands on that power. Yes, this from the organization responsible for the single greatest case of criminal fraud in the history of the world, the Oil-For-Food conspiracy.
 

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Global Warming: Motive

My 2 cents:

I believe that "world forces of this darkness" have caused man to fear what he can see but not affect. I believe that the earth has warmed slightly because of the sun cycle we are in. The ice is rotting and falling apart because it is not covered with as much snow.

Since men fear and faint, they look for causes that they can hold onto to fix the situation. The situation is fixable if you can attribute it to man. Then you can begin the solutions that have been talked about above. These solutions on the surface include rationing and regulation. But since it is the sun that ultimately regulates the temperature on the planet with mitigation of the stratosphere, we will get little for our misery.

We are stewards of this earth, not owners. We can make a choice to freeze in the dark if we want to. I appreciate my electricity. (Was without power only 5 days in freezing temperature in SPFD, MO). There is plenty of energy in forms for people. Why do those want to limit its use for mankind?

The corrupt power brokers (the greedy and ungodly) will always be warm and fed while the rest freeze. You know who are the loosers here? First it is the poor, then those who oppose foolish speculation.
 

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dzl_nator said:
My 2 cents:

I believe that "world forces of this darkness" have caused man to fear what he can see but not affect.
We are affecting it. That's the whole point.

I believe that the earth has warmed slightly because of the sun cycle we are in. The ice is rotting and falling apart because it is not covered with as much snow.

I beg to differ. So does most of the scientific community.

Since men fear and faint, they look for causes that they can hold onto to fix the situation. The situation is fixable if you can attribute it to man. Then you can begin the solutions that have been talked about above. These solutions on the surface include rationing and regulation. But since it is the sun that ultimately regulates the temperature on the planet with mitigation of the stratosphere, we will get little for our misery.

It's arrogant to think that we, as humans, are the sole cause of global warming and that only we can fix it. Certain things are beyond our control. That doesn't mean we can completely escape responsibility. We make choices that have consequences. Refusing to acknowledge those consequences won't make them go away.


We are stewards of this earth, not owners. We can make a choice to freeze in the dark if we want to. I appreciate my electricity. (Was without power only 5 days in freezing temperature in SPFD, MO). There is plenty of energy in forms for people. Why do those want to limit its use for mankind?

The corrupt power brokers (the greedy and ungodly) will always be warm and fed while the rest freeze. You know who are the loosers here? First it is the poor, then those who oppose foolish speculation.
The real losers may be future generations, if we don't make some changes.
 

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It would be cheaper, and just as effective, to sacrifice a few virgins. Perhaps the gods that control the global thermostat will grant us our wishes and turn down the heat for a few years. Later, when the next Ice Age cycle is about to begin, I want them to turn up the heat.
 

RedCanoeTDI

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World Banks have begun to take notice of Global warming this year. I read an arcticle about European Banks not offering financing to ski resorts lower than 3000 meters this year because global warming has shortened their season and destroyed their financial viability. People don't go to ski reorts that have no snow. As the market demands so the banks will react. As long as the marketplace that operates in NYC exists the banks will be there making money. The marketplace in NYC will exist as long as people refuse to believe it may be sinking. The band kept playing on the decks of the Titanic.
 

GoFaster

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mparker326 said:
Biodiesel:

What steps are you taking in your everyday life to curb global warming?
If this is a "general" question I'll point out some things that everyone can do (and I know from reading elsewhere that BioDiesel does this and more).

Reduce the use of motor vehicles, where possible.
Where necessary, use the most efficient vehicle that you can.
Use renewable-source fuels that come from sources which did not involve destruction of rain-forest where possible. (Vegetable oil, biodiesel produced from canola/rapeseed that is grown in North America, etc.)
Replace commonly-used lamps in your house with compact fluorescent bulbs. (P.S. I've found that the Phillips CFD's have the most pleasant light, almost indistinguishable from incandescent bulbs. The cheaper brands often are harsh, unpleasant, too-white.)
TURN THINGS OFF WHEN YOU ARE NOT USING THEM.
Make sure the insulation in your house is up to snuff.
Make sure your doors and windows are well sealed.
Use open windows strategically when possible.
Use a programmable thermostat.
Use an on-demand tankless water heater (side benefit is that they are very small).

All of the above are practical and economically feasible when done right. There's lots more.
 

AutoDiesel

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BioDiesel said:
Re: 'cyclical changes'

The U.N. doesn't share your sanguine opinion:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16922234/

"...recent global warming was “very likely” caused by human activity — a significant change from an earlier report but less than the “virtually certain” phrase that some had championed."


PS. kitchen mathamaticians need to include thermal expansion when they calculate their own estimates of seal level rise.

What came out was not the real science report, it was the
"The IPCC Summary for Policymakers" that is put together
by political appointees, not by the scientists themselves.
The real report comes out in a couple of months.

But of course the way they put it together makes it look like
the world is coming to a end and the idiots in the mainstream
media started drooling just like a Pavlov's dog.



The U.N. is nothing more that a corrupt corporation of global
interests that have done nothing to follow the original intent
of its creation, provide peace and stability to the world.
 
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Dimitri16V

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If UN is corrupt , why only the US didn 't agree to the Kyoto agreement ?
Get of the "patriotic" bandwagon , the US is part of this planet too and we contribute to more emmissions than any othet country. We all agree the reason we drive diesels is to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels .
We indirectly help against global warming.
 

TornadoRed

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Dimitri16V said:
If UN is corrupt , why only the US didn 't agree to the Kyoto agreement ?
If the sky is blue, why don't dogs have opposable thumbs?
 

mparker326

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GoFaster said:
If this is a "general" question I'll point out some things that everyone can do (and I know from reading elsewhere that BioDiesel does this and more).

Reduce the use of motor vehicles, where possible.
Where necessary, use the most efficient vehicle that you can.
Use renewable-source fuels that come from sources which did not involve destruction of rain-forest where possible. (Vegetable oil, biodiesel produced from canola/rapeseed that is grown in North America, etc.)
Replace commonly-used lamps in your house with compact fluorescent bulbs. (P.S. I've found that the Phillips CFD's have the most pleasant light, almost indistinguishable from incandescent bulbs. The cheaper brands often are harsh, unpleasant, too-white.)
TURN THINGS OFF WHEN YOU ARE NOT USING THEM.
Make sure the insulation in your house is up to snuff.
Make sure your doors and windows are well sealed.
Use open windows strategically when possible.
Use a programmable thermostat.
Use an on-demand tankless water heater (side benefit is that they are very small).

All of the above are practical and economically feasible when done right. There's lots more.
Brian: Excellent suggestions. Here's one for you. How about replacing the roadrace bike on your trailer with a commuter bike?

How about a couple other low hanging fruit:

Go inside instead of waiting at the drive thru.
Move closer to work.
 

TurboBenz

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mparker326 said:
BioDiesel: How many miles do you drive a year? Do you ever take alternate means of transportation such as bike, bus, train, etc.?
What are you trying to prove here? You do realize that transporation is not the only source of pollution right?

What if he has to drive 30 000km for his job which requires that he own his own car (Yes, there are plenty of jobs that require this). Then regardless, someone is going to have that job and be driving those km (if not him, then someone else will be hired). By using a TDI and biodiesel fuel you are doing quite a bit in terms of minimizing pollution.

Your style of arguement may work on 10 year olds, but not here.
 

DrewD

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Couple more examples of global warming:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/04/wbears04.xml

The oceans may be warming and air temperatures rising, but in recent days Iceland has bucked the global climate trend.
Thick pack ice, the like of which has not been seen for decades, stretched into the western fjords as temperatures plummeted and a bitter wind blew in from -Greenland.
The ice has proved a headache for fishermen, who have been unable to put to sea, but it is what comes with pack ice that has caused most concern: polar bears.
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People living around the fjord of Dyrafjördur, which last week was almost filled with the ice, were keeping an eye on the sea, conscious that the bears live on the pack ice that covers much of the Arctic ocean.
When chunks break off, as appears to have happened last week, the bears become stranded, drifting wherever the ice takes them.
There have been numerous accounts of bears making land on the shores of Iceland in the past. But it is the bears who tend to come off worse in encounters with the Icelanders, who take a distinctly unsentimental approach to wildlife.
In 1993, the last time a bear is known to have made it to Icelandic waters, it was caught by a fishing crew and killed. It is believed to have been stranded on a piece of pack ice that broke off the main pack and melted, leaving the animal swimming in the open ocean 70 miles from the main ice sheet. Five years earlier, the last bear to make it to shore was promptly shot when it turned up near the town of Haganesvík in the north of the country.
Coastguard commander Asgrinur Asgrinsson remembers a polar bear coming ashore on the island of Grimsey, north of the mainland, when he was a child. It was shot and stuffed and now has pride of place in the museum in the town of Husavik.
There are thought to be about 25,000 polar bears in the wild and environmentalists have warned that they are in danger of becoming extinct as their habitat shrinks. Climate change scientists say that with temperatures rising, the pack ice may have melted completely by 2040, leaving the Arctic ocean navigable and the polar bears with nowhere to go.
Last week's return of the pack ice to Iceland initially suggested that those predictions might have been overly pessimistic.
"I have lived here my whole life, but I have never seen so much pack ice before," said Helgi Árnason, a farmer in -Dyrafjördur.
"Forty years ago, large icebergs drifted on to beaches but it was nothing compared with this.
"[Pack ice] used to be Iceland's ancient enemy, but we stay calm so long as the situation doesn't worsen. This is just to remind us where we live."
According to the coastguard, the build-up of ice was the result of a combination of a high pressure system to the south of the mainland coupled with winds blowing in from Greenland, 300 miles to the west.
"It looked like the main pack ice had reached the coast," said Mr Asgrinsson. "But in fact it was a piece of the main pack that had broken away."
A report by a panel of international scientists, published on Friday, blamed greenhouse gas emissions for rising global average air and ocean temperatures, the widespread melting of snow and ice, and rising global mean sea levels.
The report said that average Arctic temperatures increased at almost twice the global average rate in the past 100 years.
A recent Nasa study showed that Greenland is losing 53 cubic miles of ice every year, twice the rate in 1996.
The melting polar ice means polar bears are not the only hazard for those living in the region.
Another study suggested that the thaw was luring killer whales further north.
Researchers said the whales were attacking a wide range of sealife, including beluga, bowhead and narwhal whales.
Jeff Higdon, from the University of Manitoba and the Fisheries and Oceans Canada monitoring project, said the increasing areas of open water meant the whales were able to venture farther into the Arctic.
"We've got reports of killer whales attacking every marine mammal in the Arctic," he said.

Information appearing on telegraph.co.uk is the copyright of Telegraph Media Group Limited and must not be reproduced in any medium without licence. For the full copyright statement see

Another new story about global warming:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070204/D8N2UEU80.html


25 years ago it was the threat of another ice age. 20 years ago they said that all of the fish in the ocean would be gone, several years ago it was global warming. Now it is "climate change" because of the unuaually cold weather that parts of this country and world have had. Oh, almost forget to throw in peak oil in there too.

Climate change may be occuring, but to state that it as FACT THAT IT IS BEING CAUSED BY humans is a little premature and disputable. There is big bucks in research and a lot to be gained by enemies of the US to use Kyoto protocols to cripple the US economy.

Even a prominent Canadian politician says that Kyoto is nothing but a socialist scheme to transfer wealth to poorer countries.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/30/harper-kyoto.html
 
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40X40

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Careful Drew,

Someone will accuse you of being a DENIER, a Limbaugh fan, a Listener

of O'Reilly, or even, 'gasp' , a greedy American.:eek: :D :D :D

Seriously, Thanks for the links!

I wonder how much (as a %) of the world CO2 annual production is

just from the breath of animals and humans? Anyone know?

Bill
 

mparker326

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TurboBenz said:
You do realize that transporation is not the only source of pollution right?
Yes, but since most of us don't own coal fired power plants, transportation pollution is an easy source for someone who is serious about GW to cut back on.

TurboBenz said:
Your style of arguement may work on 10 year olds, but not here.
Give BioDiesel a chance to answer. I'm sure he walks the walk.
 

mparker326

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DrewD said:
There is big bucks in research and a lot to be gained by enemies of the US to use Kyoto protocols to cripple the US economy.
Don't you realize that there are big bucks to be made in green technologies? Nobody is going to go broke. The Clean Air Act, OSHA, ADA didn't break us. Corporations are highly adaptive and innovative. Why do think massive corp's like ADM are betting so heavily on Biodiesel & Ethanol? Even the so called evil empire - WM is getting into into the enviro game. Don't worry whatever happens, our economy will be just fine.
 

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Dimitri16V said:
If UN is corrupt , why only the US didn 't agree to the Kyoto agreement ?
Get of the "patriotic" bandwagon , the US is part of this planet too and we contribute to more emmissions than any othet country. We all agree the reason we drive diesels is to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels .
We indirectly help against global warming.
For the record - Austrailia did not sign the agreement either. Both countries have a "coal based" electricity infrastructure w/ large reserves of coal. Not saying it is right - just how difficult it would be in the US, Austrailia, and even Canada (just look at Alberta's electrical rate volatility due to coal plant problems, etc.) to convert all coal fired electrical generation plants over to Nukes, hydro, natural gas, and wind until the next paradigm shift occurs at power generation levels that will make a difference.
 

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mparker326 said:
Don't you realize that there are big bucks to be made in green technologies? Nobody is going to go broke. The Clean Air Act, OSHA, ADA didn't break us. Corporations are highly adaptive and innovative. Why do think massive corp's like ADM are betting so heavily on Biodiesel & Ethanol?
Archer-Daniels is in the commodity business. They have been pushing ethanol since the 1970s, buying politicians left and right since then. Now they are well-positioned to make billions -- though not on the fuel itself, because most of the ethanol plants now being built will lose money.

I heard what Mrs Clinton had to say the other day, about taking the profits from oil companies and "investing" them in alternative fuels. Wait til the retirees and those about to retire find out she's planning on confiscating money from their mutual funds.

We already have a perfectly fine transportation fuels delivery system. It seems foolish to build a brand new one because some politicians think they know better than the marketplace. They don't.
 

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mparker326 said:
Yes, but since most of us don't own coal fired power plants, transportation pollution is an easy source for someone who is serious about GW to cut back on.
Flawed logic.

Who is getting the energy from the powerplants? You are indirectly polluting.
 
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