edc15 tuning... getting into the game! very basic questions

tdi_my live

Veteran Member
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Jul 24, 2011
Location
Germany
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Skoda Fabia
Oh man.
The map is 2X1
One axis is the Voltage and the other the pressure in hpa or mbar
200hpa are 0,4Volt or 400mvolt and at 3000hpa are 4,648Volt or 4648mvolt
in my other set of chips they were:
4648 - 3000
400 - 200
The rest is trash
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
Right - so I had it as 4648mv is 4160mbar, 0mv is 100mbar. Is this incorrect? 4bar map scales 4bar from 0 to ~4.7v. I understand it's not accurate at the low end
 

tdi_my live

Veteran Member
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Location
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You can check with vcds. Ignition only, no start, mwb10. There you see the current pressure and atmosphere pressure. If the values are identical, your calibration fits.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
well i've got about 2500mi on it since the rebuild. there were some more blunders, trials and tribulations, quirks and kinks and more yet to still work out, but relatively minor. drives great!

11mm alh pump + lift pump, .260 nozzles, 1856 turbo, ported head + stock cam

in the meantime i got back into experimenting with maps and have made the following progress:
-4bar map working correctly - still want to test it in a more controlled way than looking at boost gauges + logs to make sure it's completely accurate
-fuel limits extended to 102 (makes sense given i'm using .260 nozles - double the hole surface area as stock?)
-tweaked coolant glow plug operation
-changed all idle speeds (or at least i believe, may have missed a couple oddball ones)
-boost, fuel and SOI maps adjusted for good power to 32psi - these need much work! especially n75
-limiters made more conservative to protect drivetrain, engine and turbo

so far, it generally runs quite well, except my boost control is totally off, but is completely drivable, just need to be somewhat careful. when i get on it with a lot of fuel, it really rips, and EGTs don't seem to be anything dangerous. in order to get to 1500F i'd probably be at speeds i'd lose my license over :) in steady-state driving, i believe they are lower than what they used to be. cruising at 85mph ranges from 700-950F on slight inclines. my guess is it seems to be close to 775-800 on flat road and no wind. i believe if i got my tuning better, i should see less.

i posted on ecuconnections but will also post here, some issues, questions:

- it doesn't seem like my limiters (torque, IQ by Map, boost) are actually limiting anything. for example, i tried to limit IQ to a max of 50, yet went for a test drive and hammered it and went well beyond 50. i can also mash the go-pedal at low rpm and it will easily boost much higher than what i've set in the limiters. i'm wondering if there are some switches that are set making these maps ignored? although since the file i'm working off was initially from vwmikel, i would have thought they would be active. but maybe i'm barking up the wrong tree and misunderstanding something.

-i've tried a few strategies to get a good pump voltage map. take my current one for .764s and scale it up. runs decent. tons of power when i scale it up more to achieve max pump voltage at 3500rpm when max boost is available. idles decent, but i believe it should be smoother. i'm trying to get a really nice smooth idle at 818.

- another thing i've been trying is take what i believe to be a stock map for 11mm + .184 nozzles (the mk4 automatic) and work from there. since hole surface area is almost exactly double (0.00016486 vs 0.0003292), should simply be able to scale the map up to 102, and expect relatively correct actual injection quantities? or perhaps slightly less due to pumping losses or some other factors i'm unaware of? i'm not expecting perfection, but sane values would be nice.

-lastly, and i still have trouble with this.... is how to get my QA into a sane/realistic position for IQ values to be sane. i'm sure this is part of my problem in getting a really nice clean idle. if i put in a stock 11mm pump + .184 nozzle map, would it make sense that the QA to be in factory position, i should see about 2 or 2.5? if 5mg is a real world value for 903 idle, and i put injectors with double the hole size, it would under-report? or do i have things backwards and mixing things up again in my understanding of the QA position. even though i've read kerma, dbw and others descriptions of it a million times :| in some of my futzing with pump voltage maps, it ideals OK, not nearly as smooth as i think it should, at 881, even 818. reads 5mg, but i start slowly pressing the accelerator and intially see IQ drop to about 3, then start rising again the more i press. so something there obviously isn't right.

-having a bunch of trouble dialing in my n75 and boost maps to be a safe 32psi. i think i could make this an easier process if my torque limiter was limiting fuel so i could limit it to say, 20mg, 40,mg 60mg and take some logs under WOT. right now, i overboost too quickly to be able to safely do this get any good values

phew....! more later i'm sure...
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
took a fresh look at things again today. started with what i believe to be 11mm pump for .184 nozzles, scaled it to 102 and then multiplied by 5% to account for pumping losses.

rethinking QA adjustment, i was just confusing myself i think. basically, no matter what pump or nozzles you have, it takes only a certain amount of fuel to idle the 1.9 tdi. which would be the IQ at idle, when warmed up. so if you change nozzles, you always want to adjust QA so you get back to that IQ to get to that number. i'm guessing my correct number is 4 so did that, and car drives quite nice, and maybe it was just my imagination yesterday or my brain was frazzled from too many chip swapping, but with IQ set at 4, hot idle at 818, it's quite smooth. i'm guessing my SOI isn't perfect, so maybe tweaking that will help even more.

also, apparently my limiters are working, just not as conservative as i thought. not sure how i missed that, but did some vag logs and tried flooring it in 5th, and they were working.

car drove quite nice with what i just did. probably even better than the maps i spent many hours tweaking and thinking i was doing good things lol, and this one took 2 minutes.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
well that was fun while it lasted :( was doing just a few more rips and logs tonight... and after one good boost run i backed off and was just going to cruise back home and had no boost. i figured well i must have actually triggered limp mode or got my first boost leak. no loud pops or bangs or anything crazy sounding. 15-20 seconds later things didn't sound right, labored, some squealing. uh oh... still no boost, slowed down from ~65mph into the breakdown lane, looked at my gauges and fuuuuuuuuu*ck.. no oil pressure. shut it down.

couldn't believe it, so figured fire it up again for a second, since damage would be done already. no pressure, shut right off. didn't have my phone or flashlight on me, so started to walk back home (1.5mi away), got a ride from a nice police officer. at this point i figured the i-shaft must have broke but clinging to hope that it was somehow something stupid and benign. got my flashlight and wife's trusty golf. first thing i did was take the vac pump off and there it was. some marks on the end of the i-shaft and on the rod that happened to be right there. i-shaft had play on it, obviously broken. t-belt looked all messed up, probably from i-shaft wobbling.

don't have much hope for it now. so many things could be ruined. i spent a massive amount of time (and a pretty good chunk of money, my credit card is out of control) rebuilding it... wife is pretty unhappy as it is how much time i have spent on it. i was literally going to back away from it this weekend and just drive it, tweaking the tune when i had time. but now will be calling the tow truck in the morning.... i think i'm going to now have to get my mk1 back on the road. it's been sitting a long time, i don't trust the timing belt on it anymore, and it needs a turbo which i have a 17/22 for it. hopefully a good few days and that will be roadworthy if my wife will let me lol. 😩

😞SIGH. very depressed right now :(
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
well i checked cam bearing #3 since it's easy, and hot damn, there is a glimmer of hope! it looks totally fine :) so i'll go ahead and pull the oil pan and see what further carnage awaits. perhaps there is a chance i can get away with only putting in a new i-shaft if rods and rod bolts look good. it would still be a risk, but i think one i'm willing to take...
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
no, i didn't figure it out. i started a thread here about the trials and tribulations. tried everything short of pulling the head with no success.. for now, i took the 1856 turbo and .260 injectors and put them in my mk1 rabbit and got that back on the road. have to deal with the mk3 some other time. no ticking noises there, so couldn't have been turbo or injectors. haven't had too much time for tuning, but trying now again to work on it when i can. still having trouble getting n75 map and pump voltage map dialed in, as well as SOI. i think i should get an AFR sensor, but more $$ and effort than i should really spend now.. but then again, burning up an engine would not be good.

i've tried using robnitro's 11mm pump w/.234 injectors, scaled up a bit from 80 to 102 max IQ for my .260s. i've also tried scaling a stock 11mm pump map for .184s a few different ways. while similar, they differ quite a bit. it seems he put a lot of work into his, using AFR sensor and logging, so i would think his would be pretty correct. his pump map also looks quite different than vwmikels map for .232 and 11mm pump (but still uses 51mg max). vwmikels and my other scaled versions of a stock map have a similar shape and slopes, whereas rob's is quite different.

one odd thing i've noticed is in neutral, iq being set for around 5 and pump voltage around 1.5-1.6, when i press the go pedal, IQ goes down as rpm increases, which doesn't make sense. this happens when using rob's map or my versions. i haven't tried that again using vwmikels original tune. when driving, IQ always increase as one would expect. i'm wondering if i'm not setting my IQ right somehow or pump voltage map is wrong in the region of <5mg.

does anyone know what pump voltage should be at for a calibrated map for .260s (or .232 pp764s) for 11mm pump at idle of 903?

i also am questioning these .260 injectors - group 013 at one point while driving has shown an imbalance around 1.44 1.44 -.95. at idle its less, .8 .8 i forget the 3rd one. they have less than 10k on them. might try some injector cleaner. also, the rabbit sat for 7 yrs with a full tank of b20 fuel in it. i ran disel kleen some tank cleaner through it, and a can of injector cleaner while my pp764s were still in it. then changed the filter and pre-filter. thinking i should take the QA top cover off and take a peek to see if there is any obvious cruddy build up. then maybe another can of injector cleaner, and see if it makes any difference. if not, maybe take the injectors out and do a sanity test on a pop tester. before the car sat, i probably put less than 20k on it since i rebuilt the engine, and put on a DFIS rebuilt 11mm pump. so the pump mileage-wise is very new, just sat for a long time...
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
well i think i've got a lot of this tuning figured out. my rabbit is running beautifully, aside from a slipping clutch now. smooth running at all rpms, even down low puttering at 1300rpm. egts' seem good and low. at some point, i think i should get an emp or afr gauge. but apparently the sbc2 endurance isn't holding enough for my setup, or maybe 8 yrs of sitting it got some rust on it and that diminished its holding power? i'll be upgrading to a stronger clutch soon when i also put in the 6spd add-on conversion.... :cool:

in any case, i think i've got a pretty good handle on how to make a really nice n75 map now (given a car to do vcds logs with) and get how that works. in order to do that, i had to turn off the pid controller which was easy to do, and boost is extremely close to specified. i think i've got it about as close as can be given the varying conditions and the curve of my map "makes sense". once i turn the pid controller back on i'm confident target/specified should spot-on under all conditions. clutch is slipping too much to fine to the upper fuel/boost limits but i see how the map is coming out and it should be pretty close.

i also figured out how to extend maps, which is possible on some due to empty space after the map before the next one. the drivers wish map i extended from 8 columns to 12. while the added granularity isn't really necessary for this map, it's extremely useful for my testing purposes :) when i extend it to 10 columns, it becomes an unrecognized map, but still works. extend to 12 columns, and edc15suite thinks it's another smoke limiter, but works as intended. i'm guessing edc15suite uses the map size/unit type to guess as to what the map is. since smoke limiter and drivers wish have the same units and smoke limiter uses 12 columns also.

i would still like to know what other map header information is in the files. i see the # of columns/rows and x/y-axis values, but looks like there is more in there. i'm assuming unit type. still odd that the map factor and offsets aren't encoded there, but are hard-coded.. correct? if anyone knows....
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
one current question i have, is there are two n75 maps and two boost maps for each codeblock, which seems to be for regular or "sport" mode. i can't however find how one triggers sport mode. i know you can set the automatic transmission to sport mode, but does this then also use the sport mode n75 and boost maps? can this be done for manual transmission? via a vcds adaptation? it seems like it should be possible, and be great to be able to switch between boost maps without reflashing chips so i can test out stuff quicker, or add more flexibility . that would give 4 boost maps to choose from for each ecu.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
Well just an update. I think I have things mastered for the most point - the basics at least - and a bunch of the little things like glow plugs, the different idles.

Man, getting the n75 map was a lot trickier than I initially thought it would be. It took many many flashes and log runs before I "got it", and figured out how it was working together with the pid and being able to make sense of the numbers I was seeing and how that corresponded to what needed changing. Very hard to keep track of all the iterations of files, chips, and logs and make sense of them. Lots of trial and error, the rabbit has taken a beating. But I now have near perfect boost control up to 80% (80mg of 102mg on my pump map, 27psi. Need new clutch). Can floor it anywhere and never have to worry it's not going to freak out on me 😄. Very little smoke anytime. Now I feel like pid control could be tweaked a little to optimize it more. So far I've only worked with limiting the upper (or lower whatever it is) n75 limits to make sure it doesn't try and snap vanes shut too much.

Feeling pretty confident I could now make the maps for other turbos etc pretty quickly with my methods. Of course, I say this now and in two months some catastrophe happens :) will see how long stock head gasket and rods last 🙃
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
Well. Now that I get it, tweaking my boost maps and doing other setups should be relatively easy. We'll worth the time I spent trying to understand all the details. It's an absolute dream to drive. Tested up to 90 out of 102mg this evening (30psi). No speeding tickets yet, clutch isn't slipping which is weird, and it is batshit freekin fast! Good lord 😁 no issue with egt or too much smoke. Definitely a bit of a haze when I really get up there but not much.

Maybe I forgot to mention but this is in my mk1 rabbit. It *really* scoots!
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
Hi,

Actually can't a boost valve help allso ?

Andrew
Boostvalve as others have mentioned in the past is more of a bandaid, and not ideal ( it also doesn't just pop open instantly). I have zero uncontrollable spiking. Just a little bit of overboost which is fine. Finishing my 80-102mg boost range, but under that my largest overshoots are a couple psi, no big deal. Will work more to get it better....
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
For a while I was cursing the pid controller. I hated it lol. I was wishing we had n75 maps for each gear and then a pid controller that didn't have to work quite as hard. But now... I am extremely impressed how well it does once I was able to work with it! Rather amazing bit of code they wrote... I'm curious if the actual code in the ecu has any significant differences across our ecus for ahu to alh. Does the pid controller work any better on a newer alh ecu compared to my older msa15 ahu ecu, being that it uses the same maps?
 

tdi_my live

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Location
Germany
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Skoda Fabia
Who says that the PID regulation at ALH and AHU are the same? Different turbochargers have different PID controls.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
I meant the pid control software compiled on the ecu - not the actual data in the pid maps, which i can see is different for various engines/models. Curious if that has any major improvements in the newer ecu. I'm guessing any changes would be minor. So if I used the same pid maps I use now in my msa15.5 ecu, would pid control be any better if I were to upgrade to an edc15 ecu...
 

tdi_my live

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Location
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My Enhlisch seems too bad to understand what you're saying. Where do you see a difference between the data in the software and the data in the maps? The maps are part of the software.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
I guess its just not translating right - trying again, I wonder if there are any significant differences in the "read only " compiled binaries in the ecu, not the map data which can be changed by flashing or changing chips. The actual compiled computer code running on the ecu... but it's kind of a dumb question anyway. So no worries :)
 

tdi_my live

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There is only the data from the processor, flash and eepromm for the immo. Only the flash content is relevant.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
@burpot
You know the PID Maps in you MAS15/EDC15?
I have the pid P, I, D, Dt, n75 upper and lower, and 2 threshold maps identified. I have modified the upper/lower to help (I think) with my boost control.

I'm a little confused what the z-values in the threshold maps mean - is it a difference in IQ value that will determine when pid control should be turned off and on? Or is it an absolute iq value? I know if you out 9900 in one and 10000 in the other it turns off pid control...

I've tinkered a little bit with P, I, and D to try and figure out how it affects it but haven't had the time to do any meaningful or consistent logs to see.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
Now that the rabbit is done, time to do get going on some alh :) my brothers car with pp764 and new 1856 will be the guinea pig.. but first have to do clutch, lift pump, short shifter, replace power steering lines that look like they could split any second, and some other tlc work.

Successfully did some bench testing
 

arazvan2002

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Sep 28, 2010
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Romania
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Audi A4 B6 1.9TDI AVF quattro
Right - so I had it as 4648mv is 4160mbar, 0mv is 100mbar. Is this incorrect? 4bar map scales 4bar from 0 to ~4.7v. I understand it's not accurate at the low end
The right linearization for 4bar map is
102 920 500 4000 (is as seen without factor for voltage) or 500 4500 500 4500 with factor 4.887585532747 for voltage. Besides that, if you want to see more than 2600mbar, then diagnostic limits must be raised. If you are running more than 1.5 bar, you might want to switch to map sensor based smoke map, it's possible to outrun the stock MAF.
For PIDs I would copy the ones from ARL or BPX, which has comparable turbo size.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
well, i've officially gone down the rabbit hole bigtime... might be no turning back :eek: i'm knee deep in code now. it's been a long time since i've done any programming, and have almost no experience doing much on windows with visual studio, .net, c# .... this may be the final straw that leaves me living out of my rabbit down by the river.... with a laptop and a trunk full of random car parts lol
 
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