Early signs of slipping clutch. What is recommended for stage 2 performance tuning?

Phi1osopher

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
'96 B4V TDI Passat Wagon
Edit: this thread turned into a valuable research into clutch kits, with part numbers, etc. Here's a link to comment #27 that summarized it well:

https://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5534783&postcount=27

1996 Passat TDI B4V. I have early signs of a slipping clutch. Is there an agreed upon preferred product if I plan on going with stage 1 or 2 performance tuning? Time to start thinking about these things!
When I do the performance tuning my intentions will be more MPG oriented. I do not intend to ever race the car, and I would like to retain as much of 'normal drivability' as possible while 'waking up' the little diesel just a bit.
Thanks for the suggestions!
-Steve
 
Last edited:

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
just get the biggest baddest clutch you can afford that wont give you a bad ride
i got a 14lb lightend flywheel with a South bend clutch enduro, its good to 480 torque
 

Phi1osopher

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
'96 B4V TDI Passat Wagon
Yes, but there are so many options. It's quite difficult to sort through them all. Do you have any more specific suggestions, or can you recommend a good place to do clutch-specific research for these cars?
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Quality is what your after over price. South bend is really good here. You want a street clutch. Anything more will be a pain in the ars to daily or even trafic in.
Sort your search by street and price. Should narrow it down.
What are your power goals?
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
i dont get why you would want to just replace the clutch with the same one when the price for a upgrade is next to nothing compared to the work to do so.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Lightened flywheels and TDIs don't work well together, especially in older TDIs. No benefit from the lighter flywheel as these cars don't rev that quickly anyway. And in older cars they can cause fueling induced shudder.

Kevlar is grabby and wears out fast. At the risk of repeating myself and others, a stock replacement is all you need here.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Lightened flywheels and STOCK TDIs don't work well together, usually not in older TDIs.
Kevlar is grabby and wears out fast. At the risk of repeating myself and others, a stock replacement is all you need here.
i can agree with this now

my ahu is a old TDI and it works great with it, the moment i put it in i noticed a better reving engine, but also slightly easier to stall out, granted its really hard to stall it out though even with the lighter FW
the dang things revs to 6500 and im sure that the lighter flywheel gets me there faster.
i stand on the fence on flywheels and clutch upgrades on stock cars.
i dont know why anyone would install kevlar on a draily driver (i just got a set of barnett kevlar clutch plats for my 1985 cb650sc nighthawk) HAHAH
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.


https://www.southbendclutch.com/clutches/12371/

I would recommend the stage1 or the stage 2 K70038-01-HD-O if you plan on going with some mods.
looks like there are no lighter flywheel options listed from them, that i could find, I agree now that there is no point to a lighter one for you, for me it was i knew i was going to kill it with power some day and i wanted to be ready for it!

im running the endurance stage 3 and i love it
 

Phi1osopher

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
'96 B4V TDI Passat Wagon
Bob S, IndigoBlueWagon, I think I need a stronger than stock clutch. My B4V Passat Wagon had the older "black" OBD-D ECU. I bought a 'newer' style OBD-2 ECU used off eBay with a set of the supposedly correct GQ chips from a 2nd vendor. When I plugged in the new computer my car instantly started making more power, complete with the occasional little puff of smoke under heavy acceleration, which it never did before... Also, the previous owner told me he replaced the clutch about 15,000 miles ago. I assume it was replaced with a stock one, but I don't know what brand, or whatever.. I've had the car for about 2 months.
.
I've been thinking about it, and I think whatever is going on with the new ECU and the extra power I'm experiencing, its overwhelming the clutch at peak torque or HP. I finally put 2+2 together, and realized the clutch didn't slip before I plugged the new ECU...
.
So I think I need a stronger than stock clutch, or at least a stronger pressure plate.. I am inclined to guess (without actually getting in there and looking) that my clutch is basically like new, and I ONLY need a stronger pressure plate.. but then I don't know what the previous owner installed before. I also don't think I can justify the super sweet $450ish South Bend Clutch setup, but I can see how it would solve many future problems for a long time....
 
Last edited:

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
Bob S, IndigoBlueWagon, I think I need a stronger than stock clutch. My B4V Passat Wagon had the older "black" OBD-D ECU. I bought a 'newer' style OBD-2 ECU used off eBay with a set of the supposedly correct GQ chips from a 2nd vendor. When I plugged in the new computer my car instantly started making more power, complete with the occasional little puff of smoke under heavy acceleration, which it never did before... Also, the previous owner told me he replaced the clutch about 15,000 miles ago. I assume it was replaced with a stock one, but I don't know what brand, or whatever.. I've had the car for about 2 months.
.
I've been thinking about it, and I think whatever is going on with the new ECU and the extra power I'm experiencing, its overwhelming the clutch at peak torque or HP. I finally put 2+2 together, and realized the clutch didn't slip before I plugged the new ECU...
.
So I think I need a stronger than stock clutch, or at least a stronger pressure plate.. I am inclined to guess (without actually getting in there and looking) that my clutch is basically like new, and I ONLY need a stronger pressure plate.. but then I don't know what the previous owner installed before. I also don't think I can justify the super sweet $450ish South Bend Clutch setup, but I can see how it would solve many future problems for a long time....
B3V wagon with AHU and Rocketchip stage 2 with factory replacement clutch from Beck/Arnley (repackaged Valeo IIRC) and 35k miles and no slippage.

If in fact he replaced the clutch 15k miles ago it should not be slipping if it was done right and the clutch kit was good quality. That's especially true if you're running factory level ECU.

You can throw down a bunch of money on a Southbend kit but a stock TDI clutch should be more than sufficient and if that's not good enough just go for the stock VR6 clutch kit from the Mk3/B4 cars.

Steve
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
As long as you either deglaze or have the flywheel turnd down if it has any heat spots. They usually do once they start slipping.
I know it's a hard pill to swallow but considering how much work is involved in this job, I would go for the stage 1 vs a stock replacment that wont hold up to what you need, now or down the road.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I have a stock replacement clutch in my B4 and a Rocketchip Stage 2 tune. No slip. My previous B4V had the original stock clutch (60K miles on the car) the BK black ECU tuned by Rocketchip. No slippage. I believe you have an inferior clutch in your car currently.

If you insist on upgrading the clutch I'd suggest a South Bend Stage 2 Daily. Will hold well over 300 lb/ft of torque (far more than your car's making) and drives like stock. Light pedal, smooth engagement.
 
Last edited:

Phi1osopher

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
'96 B4V TDI Passat Wagon
thank you guys for all the great feedback and good thoughts. I contacted the previous owner, a forum member and a good guy who took great care of this car. He reminded me he had not replaced the clutch. He replaced the clutch slave cylinder, and I had misremembered.
.
My car has about 220k miles on it, and it means that my clutch probably is quite old and time to replace. It also suggests that you're 100% correct that a stock clutch should be 100% sufficient! I've done this job quite a few times, but never on a VW or TDI, and I'm feeling kind of poor right now, so I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts as I try to figure out how to get the best bang for my buck. I also have a 2000 mile Mexico road trip planned for the end of the month. =)
I also called the guys at iDparts, and they suggested a VR6 clutch kit, which I was starting to lean toward. I'm sure I'll make up my mind and order something soon!
Thank you again!
-Steve
 
Last edited:

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
All due respect to the folks at IDParts (;)), but I'd stick with the stock replacement. No need to listen to the rattle at idle.
 

Bob S.

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Location
Central MD.
TDI
A B4V, some ALHs & BRMs
All due respect to the folks at IDParts (;)), but I'd stick with the stock replacement. No need to listen to the rattle at idle.
Owning a TDI with a TDI with a VR6 clutch kit & the quiet clutch kit, it is a no brainer. The quiet kit is what will be going into my B4V this winter.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
^^^ what’s a no brainer?

From what I understand, the VR6 kit will give you a rattle at idle. The disc springs are wrong.

K7003801 is what’s known as the G60/TDI kit. It has the same pressure plate as the VR6 kit, but a different disk with white springs which are made for the TDI engine., meaning no rattle at idle.

I’m guessing the latter kit is what others are marketing as the quiet clutch...?

-Todd
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I just looked at the SB stage 1. You can clearly read Sachs on the disk and the clutch kit number I mentioned is in the SB p/n.

Also, I don’t think the pp or flywheel bolts are stretch, for these cars. I think they became stretch with the A4 chassis.

-Todd
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
LUK 17-050 kit for a tune like you are thinking of.

DMF, so not a rattler. will hold stg 1-2 torque fine.

EDIT - you'll need to trim the dust shield around the rear main seal ( not really needed) in order for it to fit, but excellent clutch all-round.

Also, ask the responders in this thread if they have installed the clutch they are recommending, on a a stg1 or 2 B4 or B4V and lived with it for several years without issue.

I did, and that car and clutch are still doing fine several 100k later.

SMF in these cars will rattle your fillings when used as a daily driver. been there done that and switched to the 17-050. The only time I would not recommend is if you are going stg III or plan on abusing the car.
 
Last edited:

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Also, ask the responders in this thread if they have installed the clutch they are recommending, on a a stg1 or 2 B4 or B4V and lived with it for several years without issue.
I have been (was until its being rebuilt for a new build swap) running the stage 3 enduro on my ahu for almost 90K miles 40K of those miles were north of 230HP, a few of those were more than that due to the nos and water meth injections but was not for more than a few pulls until i had other issues,(bent rods and such)
no noise "chatter" very similar to the original clutch pressure at the foot, but i did weld up the fork because i saw a few threads about how the clutch fork can bend due to the higher spring pressure. Im not sure if you need to do this on stage 1 or 2 and im not sure about the b4's transmission soo, food for thought.

99% of all the cars and bikes i have ever owned, i never upgrade anything unless im seeking that upgrade performance at that time, AKA upgraded clutch is a waste of freaking time, (BECAUSE gasoline engines require many things to get more power properly and cost a good $ to get there)
on a diesel however, everything that gets replaced, gets upgraded if i can. its so easy to make more power with every small thing and they add up in the end. that is the only reason i suggest the upgrade,
im a firm believer in spending the money when you want it, not to prepare for it. no reason for it but ... its a TDI so... this changes how i feel on that here!
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
G60 clutch (K70038-02) doen't rattle. It doesn't have a floating hub and because of this it transmits combustion events to the transmission output shaft. It's the transmission that's rattlilng.

Pressure plate and flywheel bolts for these clutches are all single use.

My experience indicates the LUK 17-050 holds less torque than a the stock A3/B4 clutch (Sachs K70038-01).

And the Sachs stock kit won't rattle anything. I had both the Sachs and LUK kit in my A3, and although the LUK kit was smoother, the Sachs kit didn't vibrate. Nor does it in my current B4. Drove it this morning. Smooth and quiet.

Over the years I've had just about every SMF and DMF kit available on my MKIII, IV, and B4 cars, except for kevlar kits. In the nearly 400K I've driven my Wagon I think it's had 6 clutches. So yes, I've used the clutches I'm recommending.
 
Last edited:

Phi1osopher

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
'96 B4V TDI Passat Wagon
Thanks to all of you for the information and personal experiences!After about 15 hours of sorting through lists of parts numbers, etc, I have come to some clutching conclusions.
The Sachs clutches are the OEM replacement for our TDI B4V cars. Sachs uses the SAME pressure plate in both their VR6 AND their TDI clutch kits. The primary difference between the two kits is different springs and the materials used on their clutch friction plates.
The TDI kit's friction disc is quiet, but doesn't hold quite as well. The VR6 one makes a bit of noise and uses a more aggressive friction compound.
The TDI kit is rated to ~260 ft/lbs, and the VR6 kit is rated to ~300ft/lbs.
You get to choose if +40ft/lbs is worth the noise. When it was brand new my stock Passat B4V TDI made about 150 ft/lbs. From what I've read, moderately modified ones rarely show over 200ft/lbs on a dyno...
EDIT --It's been more than two years since this installation, and the "VR6 clutch continues to work perfect, and it never made any noise.
.
I would not be surprised at all if the SBC - South Bend Clutch "stage 1" clutch kit is a painted/ re-branded stock VR6 Sachs kit. Scrutinizing their images, I can't discern a difference. I realize that doesn't mean much.
.
When you buy the OEM replacement clutch for our cars, i.e., the TDI Sachs Clutch kit P/N# K70038-01, it comes with the "VR6" pressure plate and the TDI friction disc, plus the throw-out bearing and an alignment tool. This is the same kit that is being advertised as the "Quiet" kit. This kit is rated at 260 ft/lbs torque before slipping. I believe the OEM clutch with OEM pressure plate is only rated to 200ft/lbs, but I might be mistaken.
.
useful parts list
Pressure Plate VW# 044 141 025 x or #074 141 025 b (Sachs p/n: 021141025F -- same as VR6!!)
optional upgraded Pressure Plate (1996 VW Golf VR6) VW# 021 141 025 F (Sachs p/n: 021141025F -- same as TDI!)
TDI clutch friction disc VW# 028 141 035 c or #028 141 035 bx (SACHS P/N: 037141033B)
VR6 clutch friction disc VW# ?? (Sachs P/N: 021141031D)
clutch fork VW# 02j 141 719 c
release/ throw-out bearing is VW# 02a 141 165 g
6x 12 point pressure plate bolts (one use only) VW# n 902 061 03
6x flywheel bolts (one use only) VW # n 101 010 01
Manual Trans Main Shaft Seal VW# 327 54013 589
Rear Crankshaft Seal with Flange VW# 068 103 171 F
Clutch alignment tool
**there's no pilot bearing!
Sachs TDI Clutch Kit -- Sachs # K70038-01
Sachs VR6 Clutch Kit -- Sachs # K70038-02
.
.
.
Here are the parts I ordered. I went with the Sachs TDI clutch kit. You'll note I went ahead and ordered several extra bits to replace while in there, since my car has about 220k miles on it... I also ordered a boot set to re-boot the CV Axles; mine are dying.
$35 clutch fork
$13 6x 12 point pressure plate bolts (stretch - one use only)
$18 6x flywheel bolts (stretch - one use only)
$9 Manual Trans Main Shaft Seal
$26 Rear Crankshaft Seal with Flange
$12 Clutch alignment tool
$110 Sachs TDI Clutch Kit# K70038-01 -- I got a good deal, but it's missing the bolts and alignment tool.
==========================
$223 for everything.
 
Last edited:

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
thats great!
A solid choice
May i add that you should add some brake fluid to bleed to clutch while your at it.
and why might i ask are you replacing the clutch fork?
I also started using this silicone grease, I LOVE THIS STUFF, i can post a link if you want, i will never use antisiez again. you want to grease that input shaft a bit, but not much
did you order a new throw out bearing or does that come with the clutch kit?
dont forget the beers!
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Just looked the Bentley and the flywheel bolts are stretch; the PP bolts are not. Seems like you’re sparing no expense, so no big deal.

That’s a good price for that kit. I think I spent $100 on one a couple years back, but it was open box. Everything was inside, so it was a win.

There’s an o-ring and seal for the input/main shaft that I’d also replace. This can be purchased as an assembly with the guide tube. I think the o-ring is integral if purchased as the assembly. I’ve done it both ways... I don’t usually see wear on the tube.

I’ve also never replaced a shift fork, but occasionally the plastic head on the pivot bolt will be worn and need replacement. The clip is usually fine, but who knows...

-Todd
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I’ll add this. Go to Harbor Freight and invest in an engine bar. This job will be near impossible if you’re just using a floor jack.

-Todd
 
Top