EA288 confirmed across the board by year end

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
It is the dual-path intake motor, lots of cars use them.

Not sure about turbochargers, and I'm not sure I'd lose any sleep over it, but the CR does have some crazy high EGTs at times.
 

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
From my experience, not only is the CR engine exponentially more complex than the PD, it has had far more issues.... mainly because it has more pieces to become issues. I've already replaced more turbochargers on CRs in the last couple years than I have on PDs ever not counting those that failed on BHWs because the chain was allowed to break. Countless exhaust throttles (PDs don't even have those) and we're already seeing intake changeover motors (PDs don't have those, either) failing, which is part of the $400 intake manifold. EGR filters (PDs don't have those) 2 EGR systems (PDs have one, and it's simpler) then the already weak cooling fans are now being asked to work much harder so now we are already seeing THOSE failing on CRs. :rolleyes:

Now for the most part, I still like the engine. I like the way they perform, I like how clean they are, but they are also a sizeable liability and so far from what I have seen they just are not aging as well as the previous generations of engines did. So when I hear people whine about how their BRM camshaft died after 150k miles of using the wrong oil I think "Geez, would you rather replace this CBEA engine's $1600 turbocharger at 100k miles that has actually had the correct oil all its life instead?" :p

I know the HPFP seems to get a lot of attention, but there are plenty of other things to break on the CR engines, too. I think in the future, looking back and comparing engines, we will find the older the TDI the longer the engine was able to go with the least amount of fuss.
Why doesn't VW just resurrect the ALH, and slap on a urea system?

Given that all the ALH problems are known and almost completely solved, and that the way to make those engines truly soot-free is with a urea system, why doesn't VW avoid all the pain of having to do so much warranty work (now), and go back to basics?

I know that the CR engines are quieter, but I think most TDi owners would rather put up with the farm tractor sound, than with reliability issues.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
It is the nature of the beast. As more is required of the engines, the more complex they will get. My 1935 flathead V8 is much, much less complicated than my wifes 2003 Hyundai gas engine. Someday in the future people will look back and yearn for the day of the "simplicity" of the common rail diesel.

The urea system has nothing to do with the soot, that is the dpf filter. Urea is for NoX reduction. If they could have used the alh with just slapping some stuff on it I bet they would have.
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
The car culture is all but dead. Cars are well on the way to becoming nothing but nearly sealed appliances that will be too expensive to repair and maintain when they reach the end of their "lifetime". The trend will be accelerated as the last generation of "enthusiasts" dies off.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
If they tried to "clean up" a VE TDI, it would have to have a lot of extra crap on it making it just as complicated as the CR, but it would still be the same weak engine underneath, only now it would get worse fuel economy. Don't know about you, but if I was to buy a modern day engine with only 90hp, that sucker better get 70 MPGs in a Golf. (which is why, in Europe, the 1.6L CR TDI exists, alongside the 1.2L and 1.4L gassers)
 

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
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Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
The car culture is all but dead. Cars are well on the way to becoming nothing but nearly sealed appliances that will be too expensive to repair and maintain when they reach the end of their "lifetime". The trend will be accelerated as the last generation of "enthusiasts" dies off.
If the Diesel Car Culture were dead, GM wouldn't introduce a TDi car, nor would Mazda, and MB and BMW would have stopped producing them.

From what I have read, only cars equipped with the Bosch CP4.1 are having trouble.
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
If they tried to "clean up" a VE TDI, it would have to have a lot of extra crap on it making it just as complicated as the CR, but it would still be the same weak engine underneath, only now it would get worse fuel economy. Don't know about you, but if I was to buy a modern day engine with only 90hp, that sucker better get 70 MPGs in a Golf. (which is why, in Europe, the 1.6L CR TDI exists, alongside the 1.2L and 1.4L gassers)
I would buy a 2.0 8v gasser, that is modern enough :D. Buying a modern, high tech engine and trying to drive it to high mileage will cost many times the fuel "savings".
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The Jetta S would for sure be on my short list of the [ever shrinking] new cars I would buy. Man that is a smokin' hot deal for $16k. Seriously, given the other cars you could buy in that price range?
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
If the Diesel Car Culture were dead, GM wouldn't introduce a TDi car, nor would Mazda, and MB and BMW would have stopped producing them.

From what I have read, only cars equipped with the Bosch CP4.1 are having trouble.
The number of people who work on their cars is decreasing, more and more complexity and expense to repair will discourage long term ownership, motor racing sponsorship is down from F1 through to lower levels. I'm talking long term here as I was lucky enough to live through Can Am, The Muscle Car Era, Trans Am, CART, IMSA GTP and the turbo, ground effects and v10 eras of F1. Last century was the "car culture" century. I am praying that the new combined ALMS/GrandAm sportscar series gets a solid footing of factory money and F1 does not degenerate into more gimmicks and finally some aspects of a spec series.
 

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
The number of people who work on their cars is decreasing, more and more complexity and expense to repair will discourage long term ownership, motor racing sponsorship is down from F1 through to lower levels. I'm talking long term here as I was lucky enough to live through Can Am, The Muscle Car Era, Trans Am, CART, IMSA GTP and the turbo, ground effects and v10 eras of F1. Last century was the "car culture" century. I am praying that the new combined ALMS/GrandAm sportscar series gets a solid footing of factory money and F1 does not degenerate into more gimmicks and finally some aspects of a spec series.
Comparing the initial Torque of the gas powered Passats to our TDi Passats, I'm happy with less Horse Power.

I don't feel envious with the high HP dudes who have to fill up with Premium Gas three times at the gas station versus once for our oil burners.
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
Comparing the initial Torque of the gas powered Passats to our TDi Passats, I'm happy with less Horse Power.

I don't feel envious with the high HP dudes who have to fill up with Premium Gas three times at the gas station versus once for our oil burners.
Ya, me too, that's why I'm on this site, no need for big power to go get a bag of groceries. However, I do enjoy track days and rides in my friends Z06 :D
 

SMR

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Location
Zürich
TDI
Currently: None :(, Previously: '04 Golf GLS, '12 Jetta 6M; Non-TDI Diesel: 116d EffDynEd
The car culture is all but dead. Cars are well on the way to becoming nothing but nearly sealed appliances that will be too expensive to repair and maintain when they reach the end of their "lifetime". The trend will be accelerated as the last generation of "enthusiasts" dies off.
And just imagine what will happen when the roads are dominated by autonomous self-driving cars. The industry and role of the automobile will change drastically in the next few decades.

Personally, I welcome it. Drivers around here are monstrously inept, and most of my driving isn't for pleasure, it consists of long and boring highway trips. If I could sleep, relax, get work done instead, that'd be awesome. I wonder if with the time saved, higher speeds, and lower congestion, we won't see people commonly living 70+ miles from work.

I suspect that enthusiasts will adapt, rather than die off. And perhaps their vehicles will get simpler (or stay simple). If the vast majority of cars are commuter appliances, then the emissions of the periphery pleasure vehicles becomes a lot less important.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
The car culture is all but dead. Cars are well on the way to becoming nothing but nearly sealed appliances that will be too expensive to repair and maintain when they reach the end of their "lifetime". The trend will be accelerated as the last generation of "enthusiasts" dies off.
I tend to agree with you on this, but having gone to SEMA last week and seeing a million square feet of car accessories and customizers makes me wonder. My colleague pointed out that there were far more modified trucks there than cars. Maybe that's where we're headed: a lot of young people I know are more into trucks than fast cars. Insurance costs too much, and the cars attract too much attention.

Just a few minutes ago a customer called me: he owns and ALH, the IP failed last week, and he was letting me know the car is running fine again. It has 325K on it, is pretty tired cosmetically, and he wanted my opinion about replacing it with a BRM or CBEA. I suggested he find the best ALH he could and buy that instead.
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
And just imagine what will happen when the roads are dominated by autonomous self-driving cars. The industry and role of the automobile will change drastically in the next few decades.

Personally, I welcome it. Drivers around here are monstrously inept, and most of my driving isn't for pleasure, it consists of long and boring highway trips. If I could sleep, relax, get work done instead, that'd be awesome. I wonder if with the time saved, higher speeds, and lower congestion, we won't see people commonly living 70+ miles from work.

I suspect that enthusiasts will adapt, rather than die off. And perhaps their vehicles will get simpler (or stay simple). If the vast majority of cars are commuter appliances, then the emissions of the periphery pleasure vehicles becomes a lot less important.
 

LarBear

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Location
Billings, MT
TDI
2013 Jetta TDI DSG
Fortunately I likely won't live long enough to see self driving cars become common at least where I live, but many of the people I have the misfortune to follow from I-90 down the Frontage Rd to my home could sure benefit from a self driving vehicle. Followed a woman in a Ford this morning who drove 10 mph under the posted limit (bare and dry pavement) and wandered from fog line to center line of the road.

To get where I want to go I can choose two lane state or federal highways that won't likely be rigged for self driving vehicles for a LONG time, and the non-drivers generally avoid them like the plague. Makes me happy because I can enjoy the drive.
 

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
We already have self driving vehicles, they are called buses, trains and cabs.


I still remember riding on those in Miami for only 35 cents. Wow, a lot of water has gone under the Biscayne Blvd. Bridge :D.
 

disco biscuit

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Location
Texas
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG
The mention of getting away from a common rail fuel system on these vehicles seems a little overboard. I think vw was late in the common rail game all together. I consider my 96 powerstroke a cr vehicle... Shared common pressure, distribution was built into the head with a crossover line between. Albeit a mechanical fuel pump and not the same pressures...but close. There's no other way but cr...its way overdue in this brand.

I would venture to say the problems and concerns addressed would be electronic fuel, emmisions requirements, and whether HP equals mpg loses. I think HP and especially important increased tq...to a certain limit most definitely moves weight through atmosphere more efficiently. If its really utilized in gear ratios it could be astounding. The implication of being able to use smaller engines now proves this point... Abandoning the common rail, high pressure injection is rediculouss.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The HEUI system in your Powerstroke is much more akin to the PD system, not a CR. It just uses high oil pressure to make the kinetic energy to work the injectors instead of a cam lobe.

The CR fuel system is in itself very remarkable, and really allows the diesel a much greater flexibility in engine management. However, the durability of some of the components can come into play... but the other bits (turbo, DPF, SCR, etc.) really don't have anything directly related to CR.

We've had Bosch CR on MB products for a decade now here in the states, and they rarely ever have much problems. The Sprinter engines are very, very good. I wish VAG would have held Bosch to a higher standard (or given them a bigger budget) like MB did. I've never once seen a failed HPFP on a Sprinter. And yes, they get fueled (and MISfueled) just the same as any other....
 
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bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
To expand on that...

In a CR system, full injection pressure fuel is stored in the common rail at all times (well, while the engine is running, anyway), and then is released by the injectors. The pressure doesn't increase inside the injector.

In a unit injection system (like HEUI or PD), low to medium pressure fuel is distributed to the injectors, and then something (usually a cam lobe, or as oilhammer said in the case of HEUI (used on the 7.3 and 6.0), (solenoid-controlled, IIRC) oil pressure) acts on the injector to generate high pressure within the injector.
 

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
The HEUI system in your Powerstroke is much more akin to the PD system, not a CR. It just uses high oil pressure to make the kinetic energy to work the injectors instead of a cam lobe.

The CR fuel system is in itself very remarkable, and really allows the diesel a much greater flexibility in engine management. However, the durability of some of the components can come into play... but the other bits (turbo, DPF, SCR, etc.) really don't have anything directly related to CR.

We've had Bosch CR on MB products for a decade now here in the states, and they rarely ever have much problems. The Sprinter engines are very, very good. I wish VAG would have held Bosch to a higher standard (or given them a bigger budget) like MB did. I've never once seen a failed HPFP on a Sprinter. And yes, they get fueled (and MISfueled) just the same as any other....
If Bosch makes both HPFP pumps, then the difference is in the design.

Now, since the CP4.1 fails at different engine lifetimes in our VW cars (unless VW has a secret chart of all the failures which show asymptote), it is not a metal fatigue issue (which would mean that the PLUNGER MATERIAL is too soft or brittle), and so engineering logic leads to conclusion that the CP4.1 must be failing due to a poor plunger design.

 
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RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
The HEUI system in your Powerstroke is much more akin to the PD system, not a CR. It just uses high oil pressure to make the kinetic energy to work the injectors instead of a cam lobe.

The CR fuel system is in itself very remarkable, and really allows the diesel a much greater flexibility in engine management. However, the durability of some of the components can come into play... but the other bits (turbo, DPF, SCR, etc.) really don't have anything directly related to CR.

We've had Bosch CR on MB products for a decade now here in the states, and they rarely ever have much problems. The Sprinter engines are very, very good. I wish VAG would have held Bosch to a higher standard (or given them a bigger budget) like MB did. I've never once seen a failed HPFP on a Sprinter. And yes, they get fueled (and MISfueled) just the same as any other....
So transplanting a Benz lump into a Jetta Sportwagen would be an uber reliable ride :D
 

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
If, besides transplanting the HEART of the Benz, you also transplant the BRAIN.

Good luck :rolleyes:!
 

DeliveryValve

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Location
Western US
TDI
Passat GLS Wagon
From my experience, not only is the CR engine exponentially more complex than the PD, it has had far more issues.... mainly because it has more pieces to become issues. I've already replaced more turbochargers on CRs in the last couple years than I have on PDs ever not counting those that failed on BHWs because the chain was allowed to break. Countless exhaust throttles (PDs don't even have those) and we're already seeing intake changeover motors (PDs don't have those, either) failing, which is part of the $400 intake manifold. EGR filters (PDs don't have those) 2 EGR systems (PDs have one, and it's simpler) then the already weak cooling fans are now being asked to work much harder so now we are already seeing THOSE failing on CRs. :rolleyes:
Now for the most part, I still like the engine. I like the way they perform, I like how clean they are, but they are also a sizeable liability and so far from what I have seen they just are not aging as well as the previous generations of engines did. So when I hear people whine about how their BRM camshaft died after 150k miles of using the wrong oil I think "Geez, would you rather replace this CBEA engine's $1600 turbocharger at 100k miles that has actually had the correct oil all its life instead?" :p
I know the HPFP seems to get a lot of attention, but there are plenty of other things to break on the CR engines, too. I think in the future, looking back and comparing engines, we will find the older the TDI the longer the engine was able to go with the least amount of fuss.
I have to say, owning the 2005 Passat prior to any of it's issue ever came to light has been a real eye opener for me in the new car market. Lesson learned, never buy a new car again, always buy a car that is at least 4 years old or older so you know what you are getting into, and be sure that car has a support system like tdiclub.com.


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