EA288 - A diesel way forward?

Sunnyb

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I'm hoping I don't have to take it in for service under the warranty. Heck I'm leery about the first oil change on them, they will probably reflash if its out. I only have 5k on it now.
 

SpecialTest

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I'm hoping I don't have to take it in for service under the warranty. Heck I'm leery about the first oil change on them, they will probably reflash if its out. I only have 5k on it now.
Funny you say that, I was too, and I just picked my car up from the dealer for the 10k service, plus an AC issue.

Now I know it's not fair to VW, but the gas mileage on my daily commute was lower this morning. I'm normally around 49~52mpg via the center console for the "since start" mpg, but this morning I only got to 46 mpg. It's not entirely unusual, but it's got me thinking "Did they flash it already!?!"

I'll have to report back once I get a lot more miles on the car after this service, but it's most likely just me seeing something that doesn't exist.
 

sapgar

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Funny you say that, I was too, and I just picked my car up from the dealer for the 10k service, plus an AC issue.
Now I know it's not fair to VW, but the gas mileage on my daily commute was lower this morning. I'm normally around 49~52mpg via the center console for the "since start" mpg, but this morning I only got to 46 mpg. It's not entirely unusual, but it's got me thinking "Did they flash it already!?!"
I'll have to report back once I get a lot more miles on the car after this service, but it's most likely just me seeing something that doesn't exist.
First of all, the MFI can be off by 5 to 10% at times. Second, when the temp drops, you run your AC or run the seat heaters, I've found the mpgs to drop noticeably. There are so many factors that play into it. 49 to 52 mpgs is performance under ideal conditions.

One other note. My MFI had a really high average since start and per refuel since I purchased. Then I had a sub woofer installed where they disconnected the battery and the MFI kind of rebooted. Now my MFI readings are closer to hand calc'd (lower). I'm not sure the software to flash is available yet. I've been in close communication with my VW service manager, and they don't have anything yet.
 

skramer

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Funny you say that, I was too, and I just picked my car up from the dealer for the 10k service, plus an AC issue.
Now I know it's not fair to VW, but the gas mileage on my daily commute was lower this morning. I'm normally around 49~52mpg via the center console for the "since start" mpg, but this morning I only got to 46 mpg. It's not entirely unusual, but it's got me thinking "Did they flash it already!?!"
I'll have to report back once I get a lot more miles on the car after this service, but it's most likely just me seeing something that doesn't exist.
Didn't we already have a software update that was available for the ea288? I remember thinking on my 10k service the car would get a software update. This is all before the latest/possible ECU update or w/e route they go for the ea288.
 
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andyrooski17

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Didn't we already have a software update that was available for the ea288? I remember thinking on my 10k service the car would get a software update. This is all before the latest/possible ECU update or w/e route they go for the ea288.
I just had 20k service, and there was the RVU 2309 ECM flash (available since May 2015, I think). Not a lot has been said about it, but what I've found on the forums speculate it has something to do with ash loading. FWIW, my service manager said it had something to do with a CEL that was coming on for certain cars.

I was assured it had nothing to do with this recent emissions business, and so far i've seen no hit in FE, except for the hit because it's been cold.
 

J.R.

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VW is going to officially announce what the fixes are for each model/MY on Wednesday - the deadline given by Germany.
Almost everything you read is speculative until then...although I'm hopeful the 15/16's are unaffected.
Remember...those fixes will be for EURO CARS....different emissions standards than the US/CANADA....So I caution you we might be able to infer the US fix, but with more stringent requirements, it may not mirrior the German fix...
I also hope the new motor will be unaffected, except for a programming change to ensure no "banned" or illegal software.....
Yeah, I assume the Euro fixes will give us a better idea but aren't necessarily going to translate EXACTLY to N.A.
 

sapgar

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Yeah, I assume the Euro fixes will give us a better idea but aren't necessarily going to translate EXACTLY to N.A.
Very true. I've been doing research on SCR in general, and I believe the EA288 will have a much better chance at minimizing impact based on the application of SCR and the VW design with the EA288 (exhaust recirc, etc). It's just that I/we don't know what it takes to meet CARB's standards. The delay for us is probably to see what the performance impacts are to the EA288. They may try a pass with just the defeat device removed and then have to refine software code. This would be my guess as to why the absolute silence from them. They probably test, and then have to tweak and then test and then have to tweak and get the EPA to buy in.

Then the question is if the EA189 can be brought into compliance with CARB standards and what the impacts are to 1) performance, and 2) emissions hardware durability. Remember that the Passat has SCR but with the EA189. For example, I had a 189 in my JSW, and that sucker regen'd a lot, and I don't do much stop and go. My 288 now regens very rarely. If the emissions goes to "always on", what does that do to everything? VW is in a really bad spot with the US market, because it may take quite some time to develop a technical solution for the 189 engine. If the refit and emissions warranty risks are high enough, VW may just decide to buy the affected cars back and sell elsewhere or negotiate fines with the EPA and get a pass on the emissions since they're not selling those engines new in the US any more. Then they'd just settle with owners on some form of compensation.

I think a lot will depend on how clean the EA288 actually is vs. US standards. If clean, then why not release the 2016s and 2015s and have VW just pay a huge fine and make good with EA189 owners? Then the question is if VW can keep up with more stringent NOx standards coming in a couple years or just exits diesel in the US and brings over more of their Blue Motion gas technology.
 

LongEz

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http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...o-certify-2016-model-year-vehicles-1444243809

This link is from the "monster thread", but it is probably worth including here.

I am especially concerned because I have a deposit and VIN on one of the first 2016s due in the US, and it's been in Houtson for a long time (and will be for longer so it seems).

I can't imagine the Gulf air is good on a vehicle that is just sitting for months on end. Any thoughts or comments? I had hoped the urea + a simple ecu tweak would get the job done. Now I fear it may never happen.

Cheers?

LongEz
 
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Caseyb476

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http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...o-certify-2016-model-year-vehicles-1444243809

This link is from the "monster thread", but it is probably worth including here.

I am especially concerned because I have a deposit and VIN on one of the first 2016s due in the US, and it's been in Houtson for a long time (and will be for longer so it seems).

I can't imagine the Gulf air is good on a vehicle that is just sitting for months on end. Any thoughts or comments? I had hoped the urea + a simple ecu tweak would get the job done. Now I fear it may never happen.

Cheers?

LongEz
Get your deposit back. I'm not saying it'll never happen, but it may be a while, and that's not your job to give a free loan to the dealer.
 

sapgar

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http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...o-certify-2016-model-year-vehicles-1444243809

This link is from the "monster thread", but it is probably worth including here.

I am especially concerned because I have a deposit and VIN on one of the first 2016s due in the US, and it's been in Houtson for a long time (and will be for longer so it seems).

I can't imagine the Gulf air is good on a vehicle that is just sitting for months on end. Any thoughts or comments? I had hoped the urea + a simple ecu tweak would get the job done. Now I fear it may never happen.

Cheers?

LongEz
To us it's probably simple, but they need to re-write the software and get buy in first. Probably will take a few months.
 

pandagolf

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http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...o-certify-2016-model-year-vehicles-1444243809
This link is from the "monster thread", but it is probably worth including here.
I am especially concerned because I have a deposit and VIN on one of the first 2016s due in the US, and it's been in Houtson for a long time (and will be for longer so it seems).
I can't imagine the Gulf air is good on a vehicle that is just sitting for months on end. Any thoughts or comments? I had hoped the urea + a simple ecu tweak would get the job done. Now I fear it may never happen.
Cheers?
LongEz
I'm in the exact same boat - have a deposit on a 2016 GSW TDI SEL (since June). This news pretty much seals the deal for me, unfortunately. I can't wait much longer for my car to arrive...
It's either GTI or V60 for me...
 

sapgar

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I'm in the exact same boat - have a deposit on a 2016 GSW TDI SEL (since June). This news pretty much seals the deal for me, unfortunately. I can't wait much longer for my car to arrive...
It's either GTI or V60 for me...
Both seem like good choices.
 

Cutandthrust

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Sep 6, 2015
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I'm in the exact same boat - have a deposit on a 2016 GSW TDI SEL (since June). This news pretty much seals the deal for me, unfortunately. I can't wait much longer for my car to arrive...
It's either GTI or V60 for me...

I really really like the V60 (wish they had a diesel option) and think that its a fantastic choice. But I fear worse than this VW scandal, that Volvo will exit the US unexpectedly at some point ala SAAB, in lieu of stagnant sales. Think our TDI re-sale blows now. Imagine owning a couple year old V60 from a defunct company.

I actually like the V60 looks the best, but the space/ interior isn't as practical as the GSW, due to the sloping rear roof and back glass.
 

panda

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The 2016's not coming to the US doesn't seem to bode well for the EA288 surviving with only a minor software tweak. When I bought my ALH in '02 those cars had already been on the market for a few years and there was a sizable amount of mechanical knowledge available on this forum. I worry that the EA288 will be an orphan design will little "user" knowledge available. The situation may become a lot like the '05 Jeep CRD sitting in my driveway. Dealer service is a last resort for the CRD and a constant fear. The parts are expensive parts if even available. The good news is it's a diesel and if taken care of will likely go the distance. I hope the same is true of the EA288. More patience is called for I guess.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I don't think we know yet what VW is up to with the withdrawn EPA application. Could be they're going to do something different like having the cars perform over-the-road testing before applying for certification. No one at VW has said no 2016 4-cylinder VWs that I've seen. Just journalists speculating.

The hardware setup of the EA288 is very similar to other cars that have met emissions standards.
 
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Caseyb476

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This is from Michael Horn's statement to congress. It reads to me like they rescinded the original application, and are working on a new certification, NOT cancelling the 2016.

"In Volkswagen’s recent ongoing discussions with the regulators, we described to the EPA and CARB that our emissions control strategy also included a software feature that should be disclosed to and approved by them as an auxiliary emissions control device (“AECD”) in connection with the certification process. As a result, we have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles. We are working with the agencies to continue
the certification process.
"
 

sapgar

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This is from Michael Horn's statement to congress. It reads to me like they rescinded the original application, and are working on a new certification, NOT cancelling the 2016.
"In Volkswagen’s recent ongoing discussions with the regulators, we described to the EPA and CARB that our emissions control strategy also included a software feature that should be disclosed to and approved by them as an auxiliary emissions control device (“AECD”) in connection with the certification process. As a result, we have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles. We are working with the agencies to continue
the certification process.
"
Here's a good write up:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...passat-golf-beetle-tdi-models-may-be-modified
 

pandagolf

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I really really like the V60 (wish they had a diesel option) and think that its a fantastic choice. But I fear worse than this VW scandal, that Volvo will exit the US unexpectedly at some point ala SAAB, in lieu of stagnant sales. Think our TDI re-sale blows now. Imagine owning a couple year old V60 from a defunct company.

I actually like the V60 looks the best, but the space/ interior isn't as practical as the GSW, due to the sloping rear roof and back glass.

I think Volvo following Saab is a stretch.

Latest Volvo sales figures

The V60 is definitely smaller than the GSW, but something I can look past if I end up with an R-Design...
 

waspie

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same boat as some of the others. money down on a car. car produced on 9/28 with a VIN. assuming its made port by now. I like the GTI but i drive close to 20k a year just on my car.... but there is 2k off on GTIs right now
and then supposedly the 2016s will be certified...but when? Will there be incentives?

This whole thing pisses me off. Not about the emissions, i'm whatever about that. i just want my freaking car.
 

TurnOne

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I think they will be offering more than the current $2000 off. I want a 2016 Golf TDI SEL with both lighting and drivers packages. We shall see what happens over he next couple months.
 

J.R.

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This is from Michael Horn's statement to congress. It reads to me like they rescinded the original application, and are working on a new certification, NOT cancelling the 2016.
"In Volkswagen’s recent ongoing discussions with the regulators, we described to the EPA and CARB that our emissions control strategy also included a software feature that should be disclosed to and approved by them as an auxiliary emissions control device (“AECD”) in connection with the certification process. As a result, we have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles. We are working with the agencies to continue
the certification process.
"
That seems pretty logical.

Be interesting to find out the effects of the flash. Is it just to remove the offending code? Use more DEF? Will it alter MPG/performance at all?

Then there's the question of WHEN the 2016's will be certified.

Still more questions than answers...

A delay in the 2016's could bode well for me though :D
 

VeeDubTDI

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In today's Congressional hearing, Michael Horn indicated that VW will reapply for certification on the 2016s (after removing the cheat) and he expects them to be on the market in early 2016.
 

Sunnyb

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In today's Congressional hearing, Michael Horn indicated that VW will reapply for certification on the 2016s (after removing the cheat) and he expects them to be on the market in early 2016.
If that is all they do, alot of 2015 owners will be happy.
 

andyrooski17

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I just watched that video as well. Interesting, although It wasn't entirely convincing they got the car in cheat mode. They also didn't test city fuel economy. I do applaud them for attempting to put numbers to the problem, rather than just speculate wildly.

Either way, based on this and all the latest info about the EA288 engines, it seems increasingly likely that EA288 models won't be affected too badly. Especially if VW can come up with a better solution than just switching on "cheat mode" as it is currently configured.

Looking forward to seeing CR test the fixes as they roll out
 

Zut Alors!

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Consumer Reports did a test and found the cheat is worth 3mpg on 2015. More on the 2009-14.
It wasn't "cheat" mode. From what's been pieced together through reports, congressional testimony, and posts here and there on this forum, the ECU settings in question rely on far more complicated inputs from the car before engaging in a cleaner combustion than Consumer Reports did in their own investigation. As a result, it was only marginally more scientific than that dumb TFLCars video that came out a week previously.
 

dingdong

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I'm really anxious to get any info on the EA288. I bought my 15 GSW in June. I also have an 09 JSW with 100K miles on it.
 

sapgar

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I'm really anxious to get any info on the EA288. I bought my 15 GSW in June. I also have an 09 JSW with 100K miles on it.
If they can't tune the EA288 to meet emissions and get performance, maybe diesel isn't the way forward.

I read a pretty good article here. I would be concerned about your 09 and maybe consider a buy back or just not get it retrofitted if you have that option.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150921-vw2l.html
 
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