EA288 - A diesel way forward?

makattack

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Where else are you going to get a wagon with a manual transmission? GSW is the only one in the US.
You mean diesel wagon with MT? I was curious and did a search on cars.com for wagon with MT and they apparently consider the Mini Clubman and Kia Soul as wagons ;)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Not diesel, any wagon. Maybe the Mini Clubman is a contender. Kia Soul? Seriously?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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No Outback with manual in the US. Mazda 3 is a hatchback (like a Golf), not a wagon.
 

J.R.

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2017 Sportwagon TDI?
No Outback with manual in the US. Mazda 3 is a hatchback (like a Golf), not a wagon.
I'm in Canada, I can get a manual Outback.

Sure, lol...there's I think a 3-4 inch difference in their lengths.

Those are my current alternatives if there's no more TDI's.
 

ntwrkd

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Jetta TDI
Thoughts????????

Why would Gen 3's need 2 steps?

Two-Step Approved Emissions Modifications for Generation 3 Vehicles. Assuming EPA and CARB grant the necessary approvals, Eligible Vehicles with Generation 3 engines will need to be modified in two steps. Accordingly, Eligible Owners and Eligible Lessees of Generation 3 Eligible Vehicles who elect an Approved Emissions Modification will be offered two-thirds (2/3) of their Restitution Payment upon submitting their vehicles for the first stage of the Approved Emissions Modification and the remaining one-third (1/3) of their Restitution Payment, as well as a free oil change with respective engine oil filter, to the Eligible Owner or Eligible Lessee, upon submitting their vehicles for the second stage of the Approved Emissions Modification. If ownership of the Eligible Vehicle changes after the first step but before the second step, then the second payment will be made to the owner of the car at the time it is submitted for the second stage of the Approved Emissions Modification. The amount of any mileage adjustment to the Restitution Payment will be based on the mileage reading on the Class Member’s first visit.
 

Shife

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I'm a bit chuffed about the mileage adjustment. I feel the mileage should have been based on mileage at Sept 2015. This isn't terribly difficult to estimate and in some cases, like mine, I know exactly what my mileage was because my 10k was in August. I also have weekly fuelly logs for the entire ownership of the car. The values were frozen in time pre-scandal, the mileage should have been as well. Penalizing people for VW dragging their feet just doesn't seem right.
 

ZippyNH

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I'm a bit chuffed about the mileage adjustment. I feel the mileage should have been based on mileage at Sept 2015. This isn't terribly difficult to estimate and in some cases, like mine, I know exactly what my mileage was because my 10k was in August. I also have weekly fuelly logs for the entire ownership of the car. The values were frozen in time pre-scandal, the mileage should have been as well. Penalizing people for VW dragging their feet just doesn't seem right.
Well...since you are allowed to use the car, you have effectively been paying to use it......by reducing the values by adding miles. By saying theiles used will be at a specific date in the future , there are no, or at least, reduced fears of gaming the system. If a drive keeps using the car in the same way, the miles are going to be going up at a regular rate....
But look at the extreme....
Say I said that the miles were frozen for value at that time ...then put the car into uber/taxi service knowing there was a back coming....trying to get as much value out if the car that I could....so I showed my 2015 at about 10,000 miles on it pre-scandel, but now I put 60,000 extra on it,mking $$$$, it would be a double dipping of sorts.
 

Nutty 5.0

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You'd think they'd go off the mileage when you activated your 2 VW cards at the least...
 

Shife

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Well...since you are allowed to use the car, you have effectively been paying to use it......by reducing the values by adding miles. By saying theiles used will be at a specific date in the future , there are no, or at least, reduced fears of gaming the system. If a drive keeps using the car in the same way, the miles are going to be going up at a regular rate....
But look at the extreme....
Say I said that the miles were frozen for value at that time ...then put the car into uber/taxi service knowing there was a back coming....trying to get as much value out if the car that I could....so I showed my 2015 at about 10,000 miles on it pre-scandel, but now I put 60,000 extra on it,mking $$$$, it would be a double dipping of sorts.
I'm paying to use it by paying the effing note on it. Using mileage after the fraud is known is simply a mechanism by which they can manage to pay out less to owners. I could drive the car into a tree and total it today and they would still have to buy it back, because they stipulated 6/28 as the last date it needed to move under it's own power. Under that situation I actually benefit more than if I wait and take the repair offer. In their defense, crafting a system to satisfy every circumstance is damn near impossible.

I think this "scandal" is a damn joke and the penalties are ridiculous, but I also would like to see some continuity in their logic. Objectivity is what allows me to opine that the scandal is overblown with a payout system that I believe is far more generous than we owners deserve, yet simultaneously criticize the criteria of that payout.
 

andyrooski17

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I'd like to bring the discussion back to the EA288.

In the Court Documents, specifically Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice, among other places, it's stated that "Generation 3 vehicles will require a two-dealer-visit modification process"

It seems strange, given that we all thought the EA288 would be the easiest to "fix". ANy ideas on why this might be the case?

I suppose i could go search in Threadzilla, but ugh...
 

jayp111

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Undisclosed location
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n/a
I'd like to bring the discussion back to the EA288.

In the Court Documents, specifically Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice, among other places, it's stated that "Generation 3 vehicles will require a two-dealer-visit modification process"

It seems strange, given that we all thought the EA288 would be the easiest to "fix". ANy ideas on why this might be the case?

I suppose i could go search in Threadzilla, but ugh...
IIRC it was pretty minor and it was predicated on feasibility/validation of durability of the fix.....if plan A works then G2G....if its proven not to be durable then they need to do more.......or something along those lines.....any way you slice it a 150k warranty sounds good to me

My only concern is the impact on drivability and reliability......but it shouldnt be a big deal
 

bballppaul

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2015 Golf TDI S - Buyback, replaced with new 2015 GolfSportwagen S DSG
I'd like to bring the discussion back to the EA288.

In the Court Documents, specifically Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice, among other places, it's stated that "Generation 3 vehicles will require a two-dealer-visit modification process"

It seems strange, given that we all thought the EA288 would be the easiest to "fix". ANy ideas on why this might be the case?

I suppose i could go search in Threadzilla, but ugh...
I tried to see if I could find similar info, but definitely threadzilla isn't the place to go for it. I reviewed the EPA docs in alot of depth. Fixes aren't approved, but I'm very confident that the "fix" has already been created. Approval is subject to the durability testing.

If you read through the documents, it talks about GEN3 vehicles requiring an additional NOx sensor to be installed. I would infer from the documents that there is no downstream NOx sensor to measure the efficiency of the DEF-NOx reaction. DEF dosing is probably based on a value from the upstream NOx sensor (there is one before the Urea injector). But without a way to measure the NOx at the other end, and thus the NOx -> N2 conversion efficiency, the emissions system can't do a great job of controlling NOx. Since manufacturers want to reduce ammonia slip (injecting too much DEF allowing excess ammonia to be present in the exhaust), the DEF dosing strategy probably allowed high NOx emissions to occur under heavy loading, since there is no way to adjust DEF dosage based upon realtime NOx emissions. I'm sure not enough DEF was being injected into the exhaust stream.

The software reprogramming will probably change the dosing strategy and incorporate the second sensor. I believe this would be the first part of the recall. The second part of the recall would be dependent on durability testing. Generally, diesel oxidation catalysts (DOC) used in diesel vehicles with SCR play a part in converting NO to NO2, as a higher NO2:NO ratio will result in a greater NOx + NH3(ammonia) -> N2 conversion when you get to the SCR catalyst. The DPF in our vehicles is coated with an SCR catalyst. Don't want to get into the reactions, but the point is that the DOC and/or SCR catalyst will likely undergo more stress with the new DEF dosing strategy than it was originally designed for. After the results of the durability testing, they will know how many miles the catalytic converter is good for. If it doesn't hit 150,000 miles, the EPA will require VW to replace the combined DOC/DPF/SCR unit at a specified interval. That will be the second part of the recall, because it will be required to keep the vehicles emissions compliant for the full useful life of the vehicle, which is specified as 150,000 miles for the emissions bin that the vehicles were certified to.

Granted, this is speculation, but it is based on sound science and the EPA's consent decree document. I couldn't help but dive into all this since my background is in Chemical Engineering.
 

J.R.

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I tried to see if I could find similar info, but definitely threadzilla isn't the place to go for it. I reviewed the EPA docs in alot of depth. Fixes aren't approved, but I'm very confident that the "fix" has already been created. Approval is subject to the durability testing.
If you read through the documents, it talks about GEN3 vehicles requiring an additional NOx sensor to be installed. I would infer from the documents that there is no downstream NOx sensor to measure the efficiency of the DEF-NOx reaction. DEF dosing is probably based on a value from the upstream NOx sensor (there is one before the Urea injector). But without a way to measure the NOx at the other end, and thus the NOx -> N2 conversion efficiency, the emissions system can't do a great job of controlling NOx. Since manufacturers want to reduce ammonia slip (injecting too much DEF allowing excess ammonia to be present in the exhaust), the DEF dosing strategy probably allowed high NOx emissions to occur under heavy loading, since there is no way to adjust DEF dosage based upon realtime NOx emissions. I'm sure not enough DEF was being injected into the exhaust stream.
The software reprogramming will probably change the dosing strategy and incorporate the second sensor. I believe this would be the first part of the recall. The second part of the recall would be dependent on durability testing. Generally, diesel oxidation catalysts (DOC) used in diesel vehicles with SCR play a part in converting NO to NO2, as a higher NO2:NO ratio will result in a greater NOx + NH3(ammonia) -> N2 conversion when you get to the SCR catalyst. The DPF in our vehicles is coated with an SCR catalyst. Don't want to get into the reactions, but the point is that the DOC and/or SCR catalyst will likely undergo more stress with the new DEF dosing strategy than it was originally designed for. After the results of the durability testing, they will know how many miles the catalytic converter is good for. If it doesn't hit 150,000 miles, the EPA will require VW to replace the combined DOC/DPF/SCR unit at a specified interval. That will be the second part of the recall, because it will be required to keep the vehicles emissions compliant for the full useful life of the vehicle, which is specified as 150,000 miles for the emissions bin that the vehicles were certified to.
Granted, this is speculation, but it is based on sound science and the EPA's consent decree document. I couldn't help but dive into all this since my background is in Chemical Engineering.
Good info, thanks.


Can't wait to hear full details on the 'fix', how it affects performance/mileage/reliability (largely of the emissions system/CAT) /DEF dosing etc.

And perhaps most interesting, how tuners will work around it to un-fix the 'fix':p
 

funoutdoors121

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CT (USA)
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2016 models

Hi All;
Does anyone have any idea of who owns the current 2016 TDIs that have been stuck in port: the dealerships who ordered them , or VW of A?
My guess would be to say most likely the dealerships.
And another guess: these cars will only get released to the dealerships once a fix for them has been approved by the EPA?
May be interested in buying one of these 2016 models, and trying to figure out how to best go about it. All tips very welcome! :)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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What I've heard from several sources is that the '16s are gone: they've been shipped out of the country.
 

funoutdoors121

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What I've heard from several sources is that the '16s are gone: they've been shipped out of the country.
Wow, bummer if true!
I'm starting to contact some dealerships for info on this and have not gotten anything definite from any of them yet.
When/if (;)) I do, will post on this thread in case anyone else may be interested.
My assumption was that the 2016 TDI models would be released to dealerships once VWofA had come to an agreement with the FTC/EPA, and it seems they have now submitted their plans (6/28) and waiting for approval (7/28 ?).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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the 2016 MY is over. I think VW decided it didn't make sense to go to the effort to modify and certify vehicles that are already considered one model year old. Let's hope they simply skip to the '17s and bring them in.

In the meantime, there are some '15s left around.
 

panda

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Has anyone seen any indication that VW will sell TDI's in the 2017 lineup? This may provide some indication of their long term diesel plans.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I think what happens in 2017 would be more of an indicator of short term plans. Right now dealer order sheets days diesels are "TBD" which is not surprising as VW may still be negotiating for EPA compliance. However, other rumors I hear are that VW may skip 2017 and bring diesels back in 2018, if for no other than marketing reasons.
 

panda

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I think what happens in 2017 would be more of an indicator of short term plans. Right now dealer order sheets days diesels are "TBD" which is not surprising as VW may still be negotiating for EPA compliance. However, other rumors I hear are that VW may skip 2017 and bring diesels back in 2018, if for no other than marketing reasons.
Yeah, This is what I was afraid of. Those of us with 2015's and EA288's would have very little public knowledge base to draw on. It's bye bye for me, it's been a great ride.
 

Cincy_TDI

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Turning my 2015 in as soon as I can. Love the diesel but if they couldn't get it right the first time, under the gun they will rush on the fixes, probably won't stand behind them long term and who knows what issues will happen 6.12,24 or 36 months down the road after a potential fix.

Bye bye VW
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Funny, my view is different. If they release the remaining '15s that are at dealers for sale and discount them, I'm buying one, probably either a manual transmission Passat or Jetta Sedan to replace my B4. I've driven a bunch of EA288 TDIs and think it's a great drivetrain.
 

panda

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Turning my 2015 in as soon as I can. Love the diesel but if they couldn't get it right the first time, under the gun they will rush on the fixes, probably won't stand behind them long term and who knows what issues will happen 6.12,24 or 36 months down the road after a potential fix.

Bye bye VW
Any idea when a 2015 buyback could happen? I thought the final figures for the 2015's haven't been decided yet. I will buy another GSW if I can get a reasonable deal. I've got more than enough diesels in my yard and barn.
 

srs5694

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Turning my 2015 in as soon as I can. Love the diesel but if they couldn't get it right the first time, under the gun they will rush on the fixes, probably won't stand behind them long term and who knows what issues will happen 6.12,24 or 36 months down the road after a potential fix.
Part of the proposed settlement includes warranty extensions on current vehicles, so VW must "stand behind" them. How long those will last depends on how much you drive the car, of course, but I expect they'd last at least a year or two even for heavy drivers. (That said, I don't recall the precise mileage details.) In the longer term, your concerns may be justified.

Of course, even if you've got a warranty, reliability problems can be a hassle -- or worse. I'd hate to be stranded on the side of the road in an ice storm or in Death Valley because my car's emissions system failed at that point. Repeated failures could also be a major headache, even if they don't cost me a cent. I was a bit wary of a newly-redesigned VW when I bought my 2015 Golf, and the emissions fix is unlikely to improve reliability, so even with an extension to the warranty, I'm leaning toward turning mine in.

panda said:
Any idea when a 2015 buyback could happen? I thought the final figures for the 2015's haven't been decided yet.
Nothing's been approved; however, there are PDFs on the FTC site that enable you to compute the exact value you'll get for your car, assuming you know the turn-in date and mileage at that time.

As to when it will happen, nothing will be 100% finalized until early October -- and that assumes no further delays (say, if the judge rejects the proposed settlement or requires that its details be tweaked). After that, VW has a 90-day window to schedule a turn-in date, so if VW wanted to be jerks about it, or if they're just disorganized, it could be January before cars can be turned in. OTOH, if VW accepts returns promptly, people could start returning them as early as October. At least, that's my reading of the situation. My money's on October or November for significant buy-back flow to begin. (Election Day, anyone? Change the President, change your car!) AFAIK, there's no distinction between model years for returns, although VW might have their own scheduling priorities.
 

Shife

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For those of you who think this debacle is anything more than a speed bump for VAG, I believe you need a history lesson:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobil...-infamous-automotive-scandals.html/?a=viewall

That is but a small list of the hundreds of examples of auto companies behaving badly.

....and the "diesel is dead" crowd might want to pass the note on to GM, because they are putting a diesel back in the Cruze for the 2017 model year.
I hate to pull the "I told you so" card, but there it is:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160802/RETAIL03/160809957/

Straight from GM. Expect to see VW pivot on their previous statements of putting diesel in the back seat of their product line-up if GM meets their sales goals.
 

GWbiker

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Any idea when a 2015 buyback could happen? I thought the final figures for the 2015's haven't been decided yet. I will buy another GSW if I can get a reasonable deal. I've got more than enough diesels in my yard and barn.
I was at my local dealership this morning for a warranty fix on my '15 Golf TDI. The hold up seems to be the California CARB weenies who want to bleed VW for more $$$$$$$.

What I was told by the Sales manager who had the VW pay out sheet with him:

Buy back/fix program will begin in October. A "third party" team will visit each VW dealership and handle the paperwork plus pay out/fix option.

MONIES WILL GO INTO YOUR ACCOUNT. I am not happy with that. (IRS may want to tax that money)

Buy back will also include a cash payment. Fix will include a cash payout. VW paperwork listed the numbers. For me, buy out - $27,000 + $6700 cash. I'll believe that when I see it.

Fix on MOST Diesels will include a new exhaust system with cat convertor. Probably to what Mercedes Benz installed on my (POS) '87 300TD. Parts are on the way, I'm told.

Nobody gets a new TDI motor.

This dealer knows that I've been with VW since the Air cooled days of mid '60's, so I believe that above info isn't BS to make me feel good.

But, one never knows what can happen between now and October.

As always, YMMV.
 
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