EA288 - A diesel way forward?

[panda]

The "Clean Air" thread in the Emissions forum has become unreadable. It also seems to be full of posts from people who have recently joined and don't own any TDI vehicles. The amount of condemnation mixed with hand wringing is astounding.

I would like to see here a more focused discussion around the EA288. There are many questions about it's level of NOX emissions compared to the older engines and even whether it can be brought into compliance. If VW diesels have a future it will be based at least for a while on this motor. If the EA288 can't be made to pass the test it brings up a whole set of problems for those of us lucky/unlucky enough to own one.

I took delivery of my 2015 Sportwagen a little over 2 weeks ago. I really like this car and although I don't expect a buy back I don't want a car stripped of the reasons why I purchased it in the first place. If the diesel program is cancelled, caring for our vehicles will become very difficult. For the last 12 years I have relied on Fred's to care for my ALH. Although I've had VW diesels since 1982 I have never had good luck with the VW dealer network for service. I fear if only a few folks have an EA288 the collective knowledge available here will be very limited.

 

[ZippyNH]

Engines that include a SCR system should have ZERO issues....
VW might need to increase the flow rate of the DEF/adblue, resulting in refilling between oil changes (maybe an extra $10 per 5000 miles) so no big deal....
I believe the stop sale has more to do with leverage and the fact the 2016 were not certified by the epa for sale....so till all is tested, and passes, VW wants to be cooperative, and not push limits ..and selling tdi's too soon would be a distraction.

Now ..it becomes an economic choice....can VW sell enough tdi cars in volume to make sense? Lots of support and parts just for tdi cars, lots of training...now lots of government oversight....maybe they give up...maybe they continue...
Anybody have a crystal ball?

 

[panda]

Engines that include a SCR system should have ZERO issues....
VW might need to increase the flow rate of the DEF/adblue, resulting in refilling between oil changes (maybe an extra $10 per 5000 miles) so no big deal....
I believe the stop sale has more to do with leverage and the fact the 2016 were not certified by the epa for sale....so till all is tested, and passes, VW wants to be cooperative, and not push limits ..and selling tdi's too soon would be a distraction.

Now ..it becomes an economic choice....can VW sell enough tdi cars in volume to make sense? Lots of support and parts just for tdi cars, lots of training...now lots of government oversight....maybe they give up...maybe they continue...
Anybody have a crystal ball?

The leverage explaination makes sense as the EPA seemed to be getting the run around from VW for awhile. Although I wanted an end of year 2015 the dealer was rather vague when I asked about the 2016. Who knew what and when may become important.

 

[greengeeker]

Engines that include a SCR system should have ZERO issues....
VW might need to increase the flow rate of the DEF/adblue, resulting in refilling between oil changes (maybe an extra $10 per 5000 miles) so no big deal....

This needs to be put in a sticky so people stop freaking out. SCR is fantastically efficient at taking care of NOx emissions so improving the EA288 emissions levels isn't going to be difficult to fix.

Those without SCR are another story but that's not the topic of discussion for this thread.

 

[mkane]

As we all know, speculation. Fingers crossed. Maybe I should have my car tested for nitrogen oxide.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Note that the 2016 EA288 engined cars are not part of the EPA letter. I've been told that this is because they don't have the defeat device. They passed emissions without it. I haven't verified this, but the big "40 times" number that fearmongers are throwing around is from a non-SCR car. The amount the SCR cars (Passat, '15 EA288), is far less.

Dealers expect '16s to be available soon. Recalls for the older cars will take more time.

 

[panda]

Note that the 2016 EA288 engined cars are not part of the EPA letter. I've been told that this is because they don't have the defeat device. They passed emissions without it. I haven't verified this, but the big "40 times" number that fearmongers are throwing around is from a non-SCR car. The amount the SCR cars (Passat, '15 EA288), is far less.

Dealers expect '16s to be available soon. Recalls for the older cars will take more time.

I hope this is true. The idea of clean passenger car diesel of any design is really taking a beating in the press these days. Even so I think I'll start collecting some VCDS data for comparison following any ECU reflashing at the dealer.

 

[ZippyNH]

As we all know, speculation. Fingers crossed. Maybe I should have my car tested for nitrogen oxide.

Educated speculation...
A few heavy truck engine makers tried to do diesels emissions without SCR in the 2010-2011 timeframe (which is when the rules were tightened).and they subsequently were caught and fine much like what is happening to VW...
In that case, the builder was fined, and the motors were grandfathered for life as OK...
The SCR engines like the Detroit DIESEL DD-13/DD-15 are able to easily meet the clean air rules, and even qualify to make the builders clean air credits which are sold for extra $$.
The basic issue was the cost and complexity of the SCR system finely outweighed the extra fuel burn of the non SCR motors...
Much like VW,they passed by gradually reducing the regens, and reducing the egr flow rates, the longer they ran....so the mpg they returned was closer to pre-emissions trucks, and not really as bad as in full emissions mode where they would need to return every 200 miles or so...these trucks ran so hot, turbo's failed yearly like WATERPUMP and ALTERNATORS, and washerfuild would BOIL UNDER THE HOOD....not good..
Compare this to SCR motors, where they run a regen every 600-1000 miles (using less fuel) and using the urea addative (DEF/adblue) to capture the nox till it is consumed in a regen...
In my experience with HD trucks, the pre-emissions motors got very good mpg, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY WERE SIMPLE.....then the non SCR and high flow egr motors did progressively worse....then the SCR motors utilizing def came out, and the motors could be tuned for economy, rather emissions....MPG WENT UP DRAMATICALLY..... pre-emissions trucks (about 2005) were typically 6.5-7 mpg, then slightly newer trucks with the higher flow egr and non SCR usually went down to 5.5-6 mpg range...then the SCR def trucks came out and they got 8.5 mpg...I have done this at 80,000 lbs...
And in a truck, the frame and body is sold, and the engine of your choice fitted...so this was all in similar aerodynamic bodies and trailers.
There is no reason to believe that the ea288 should loose very much if any mpg...
The non SCR motors...not so sure....they might take a big hit in mpg....I am glad I don't have one at this point, as VW software will likely reduce their power by lots, and now every inspection will be more thorough in looking too see if the right items are installed...

 

[Kamerad_K]

My uncle is a mechanic who works on semis, he said DEF is really the only way to reduce NOx emissions while still getting good fuel economy. In retrospect it seems kind of odd that they would fit the EA288 with SCR if it wasn't necessary on the previous models although if I understand correctly the AdBlue tank is the reason they had to modify the rear suspension.

 

[pandagolf]

Note that the 2016 EA288 engined cars are not part of the EPA letter. I've been told that this is because they don't have the defeat device. They passed emissions without it. I haven't verified this, but the big "40 times" number that fearmongers are throwing around is from a non-SCR car. The amount the SCR cars (Passat, '15 EA288), is far less.

Dealers expect '16s to be available soon. Recalls for the older cars will take more time.

This. Crossing my fingers this is the case.

My dealer actually told me this week that my 2016 TDI GSW order is expected next week - who knows how accurate the comm# dates are now though...

 

[sapgar]

The "Clean Air" thread in the Emissions forum has become unreadable. It also seems to be full of posts from people who have recently joined and don't own any TDI vehicles. The amount of condemnation mixed with hand wringing is astounding.

I would like to see here a more focused discussion around the EA288. There are many questions about it's level of NOX emissions compared to the older engines and even whether it can be brought into compliance. If VW diesels have a future it will be based at least for a while on this motor. If the EA288 can't be made to pass the test it brings up a whole set of problems for those of us lucky/unlucky enough to own one.

I took delivery of my 2015 Sportwagen a little over 2 weeks ago. I really like this car and although I don't expect a buy back I don't want a car stripped of the reasons why I purchased it in the first place. If the diesel program is cancelled, caring for our vehicles will become very difficult. For the last 12 years I have relied on Fred's to care for my ALH. Although I've had VW diesels since 1982 I have never had good luck with the VW dealer network for service. I fear if only a few folks have an EA288 the collective knowledge available here will be very limited.

I've had both engines in the past year and a half. My JSW with the ea189 regen'd all the f'ing time, despite highway trips... blah, blah, blah

The new ea288 GSW regens rarely. Great engine and car. My prediction is that the ea288 will comply readily with a reflash without much impact to performance... maybe a little on FE, but I average above the EPA highway when calc'd by hand already.... and that's way better than what I averaged with my other TSI Golf.

Unfortunately, the ea189 fiasco will probably really set diesel back enough to allow high efficient gas and hybrids to put the nail in the coffin here in the US. The 2015 and 2016 ea288 may be the last higher volume TDIs produced by VW for the US market, despite being truly clean in the end. VW has great TSI technologies now and just need to get those going. Will be a dark 2-3 years for VW USA, and hopefully they don't pull out.

 

[ZippyNH]

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-cheat-in-tests-and-can-it-fix-affected-cars/

This is a good, and fairly short read!!
But this is WHY i am not as worried about the SCR/DEF equipped cars...

There are drawbacks to all these approaches. Recirculating exhaust gas, unsurprisingly, reduces engine performance. LNTs work by absorbing NOx but they rapidly become saturated with it. They have to be regenerated every few seconds by pumping extra fuel into the engine, which increases fuel consumption.

SCRs work by injecting urea into the exhaust, which reacts with nitrogen oxides, forming harmless nitrogen gas and water. Car owners have to refill the tank of urea (sold as AdBlue) every few months. It also takes up space, so SCRs are only fitted on larger vehicles.

Volkswagen’s cheat must involve tweaking some or all of these factors. The software may turn off exhaust gas recirculation to boost performance, for instance. It may regenerate LNTs less often than required to save fuel, or reduce the amount of urea injected into SCRs so the tank needs refilling less often.

In theory, Volkswagen could reduce NOx emissions by fixing the software, although its engineers seem to have been unable to do this when consulted by the US Environmental Protection Agency about the anomalous test results. The trouble Volkswagen faces is that, in the car models that do not have SCRs, reducing NOx emissions could have a major impact on performance and fuel consumption. If courts and regulators deem this unacceptable, the huge bill facing the car maker will soar even higher.

 

[makattack]

http://media.vw.com/release/1076/

This press release seems to confirm the EA288 motor is not part of the recall:

The internal evaluation revealed that approximately five million Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand vehicles are affected worldwide. Certain models and model years of these vehicles (such as the sixth generation Volkswagen Golf, the seventh generation Volkswagen Passat and the first generation Volkswagen Tiguan) are equipped exclusively with type EA 189 diesel engines.

As previously announced, all new Volkswagen Passenger Car brand vehicles that fulfill the EU6 norm valid throughout Europe are not affected. This therefore also includes the current Golf, Passat and Touran models.

 

[sapgar]

http://media.vw.com/release/1076/

This press release seems to confirm the EA288 motor is not part of the recall:

Doesn't mention the EA288 specifically. May need to validate via testing with the EPA or something before making the explicit call out.

 

[pandagolf]

http://media.vw.com/release/1076/

This press release seems to confirm the EA288 motor is not part of the recall:

Hmm..this only mentions EU6 and not US/CARB.

 

[meerschm]

Note that the 2016 EA288 engined cars are not part of the EPA letter. I've been told that this is because they don't have the defeat device. They passed emissions without it. I haven't verified this, but the big "40 times" number that fearmongers are throwing around is from a non-SCR car. The amount the SCR cars (Passat, '15 EA288), is far less.

Dealers expect '16s to be available soon. Recalls for the older cars will take more time.

the 2016s were not included in the letter, because the years in the letter were previously certified for sale.

the rejection of the 2016 for the moment, is covered by the normal process. You do not need to recall a car that has not been sold.

(that being said, the 2016s could just need a patch, as could the 2015s)

 

[wrc777]

I've had both engines in the past year and a half. My JSW with the ea189 regen'd all the f'ing time, despite highway trips... blah, blah, blah
The new ea288 GSW regens rarely. Great engine and car. My prediction is that the ea288 will comply readily with a reflash without much impact to performance... maybe a little on FE, but I average above the EPA highway when calc'd by hand already.... and that's way better than what I averaged with my other TSI Golf.
Unfortunately, the ea189 fiasco will probably really set diesel back enough to allow high efficient gas and hybrids to put the nail in the coffin here in the US. The 2015 and 2016 ea288 may be the last higher volume TDIs produced by VW for the US market, despite being truly clean in the end. VW has great TSI technologies now and just need to get those going. Will be a dark 2-3 years for VW USA, and hopefully they don't pull out.

The 1.4TSI is going to be a challenge for the TDI. It is only rated at what 3 mpg worse than the EA189? There is a bigger gap to the EA288 but still not a lot.

 

[fatbobfenner]

The "Clean Air" thread in the Emissions forum has become unreadable. It also seems to be full of posts from people who have recently joined and don't own any TDI vehicles. The amount of condemnation mixed with hand wringing is astounding.

I would like to see here a more focused discussion around the EA288. There are many questions about it's level of NOX emissions compared to the older engines and even whether it can be brought into compliance. If VW diesels have a future it will be based at least for a while on this motor. If the EA288 can't be made to pass the test it brings up a whole set of problems for those of us lucky/unlucky enough to own one.

I took delivery of my 2015 Sportwagen a little over 2 weeks ago. I really like this car and although I don't expect a buy back I don't want a car stripped of the reasons why I purchased it in the first place. If the diesel program is cancelled, caring for our vehicles will become very difficult. For the last 12 years I have relied on Fred's to care for my ALH. Although I've had VW diesels since 1982 I have never had good luck with the VW dealer network for service. I fear if only a few folks have an EA288 the collective knowledge available here will be very limited.

Panda...I'm in the same boat. I just bought my 15 GSW TDI on 30 AUG. I haven't even driven it yet; the shipping company picked it up at the dealer and forwarded it to me at post (Moscow).

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding which TDI engine model is effected....EA189, EA288 or BOTH.

 

[panda]

Panda...I'm in the same boat. I just bought my 15 GSW TDI on 30 AUG. I haven't even driven it yet; the shipping company picked it up at the dealer and forwarded it to me at post (Moscow).

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding which TDI engine model is effected....EA189, EA288 or BOTH.

You're going to really enjoy your new car.

I do believe VW will be able to "fix" this motor if it's necessary. At the very least they should extend the emissions and engine warranty by a significant number of years/miles.

 

[panda]

Although I've owned diesels since 1975 this time around I almost sprang for a TSI. This was based on the current trend in gasoline prices which seems to be down. I chose the TDI instead, basically because I was impressed by the specifications of the EA288 and assumed it would last a long long time. Doing so cost me a hefty premium at a time when the dealer must have known what was soon to break in the news.

If and at this point it's an unknown for sure, VW refuses any compensation to those who bought 2015 model vehicles perhaps a small claims court law suit for the difference in cost plus anticipated increase maintenance cost would be fair. I don't think a buy back is fair to the company but we surely have less than we thought we purchased.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Doing so cost me a hefty premium at a time when the dealer must have known what was soon to break in the news.

When I wrote the owner of our local dealer on September 14th to ask about the port hold on '16s, he had no information from VWoA about it. When asked all they did was confirm the port hold. I think dealers were as blindsighted about this as customers.

 

[Matt927]

When I wrote the owner of our local dealer on September 14th to ask about the port hold on '16s, he had no information from VWoA about it. When asked all they did was confirm the port hold. I think dealers were as blindsighted about this as customers.

I concur with IBW, I am fairly close with a service manager at a local dealership. They had no idea. That plus the recall for the clock spring, sales are slow.

On a side note, ID Parts.....make a winter front for the Mk7!!!

KCCO

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Working on it. Have a loaner '15 GSW from our local dealer for that purpose.

 

[manyVAGs]

Just to clarify. I am 99% certain that regens on the E288 are for the particulate filter, they have nothing to do with NOx

 

[ZippyNH]

Just to clarify. I am 99% certain that regens on the E288 are for the particulate filter, they have nothing to do with NOx

The 288 motors do not use a trap that needs to be regened very often (every few minutes) to be effective...it uses the DEF, which absorbs/chemically reacts with the nox...and is then burnt off and made into n2 when a regen is commanded....that is the ENTIRE REASEON why def/addblue is used....to control nox.

 

[cane929]

Don't know if this contribute to this discussion but here is what the CEO of Autonation (Biggest dealership for VW in the US) said:

A recall fix may be coming soon for 2015 and 2016 models, neither of which can be sold until repairs are made. Mike Jackson, CEO of AutoNation, the country's largest auto dealership chain, said Wednesday that he was told by VW officials that a software change will bring the last two model years into compliance.

Here is the article:
http://www.mynews4.com/news/story/S...ons-for-VW-owners/Q8dbVZSJm0Gv0ADFTwFsxQ.cspx

 

[greengeeker]

Just to clarify. I am 99% certain that regens on the E288 are for the particulate filter, they have nothing to do with NOx

This is correct. Particulate filter is filtering particulate matter.

 

[ZippyNH]

This is correct. Particulate filter is filtering particulate matter.

Technically correct...that is why def is used....the urea chemically binds with the nox...and is then burnt off...if a def/urea.addblue system is installed, the level of nox control can be changed by adjusting the flow rates...and the ea288 in the 2015+ cars have a addblue/urea/def system...
On the non def cars a LNT trap is used to capture nox...but a trap needs regened, like in "test mode" very often...or it becomes saturated....
Remember...there is more than ONE emissions component....

 

[TurnOne]

Seems a lot of confusion about whether or not the 15's are included.
My car has used so little AdBlue over the first 30K+ miles. If the usage doubled I wouldn't care.
I can only hope they offer big coupons to current owners and rebates/incentives for the 2016's.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

They're included. Look at the EPA letter, they're listed.