DSG Advice

[jesus_man]

I think my tranny is failing slowly. Pretty much since I bought the car @ 92k, shifting from R to D or just pulling away from a stop, it's grabbed hard occasionally and has gotten progressively more common. I have done a few DSG services without any improvement. Car now has 205k. So, what are my options? Anyone know where I can buy a new one to R&R or perhaps a good used one would be a better route? Do I need to worry too much about year differences? How hard is this job?

For more detailed information about what I experience, imagine pulling up to a stop light and coming to a complete stop, or even just near to it. Light turns green and if I press the throttle immediately at all, the transmission jolts into gear and away we go. I can only avoid this if I just let off the brake first, allowing the transmission to engage before I get on the throttle, but that takes a bit longer. I have changed my driving style to match this in order to preserve this tranny as long as I can, but it is getting worse. It does not like downshift at speeds lower than @ 40 either and does the same jolt. But I don't notice any issues at highway speeds. There is a noise at idle like a rattling that I seems to emanate from the transmission and I think I can feel it there as well. I believe it to be consistent with engine RPM, but I will have to get my son to help me confirm that. Engine runs amazing, and fuel mileage has remained consistent so I guess I'd rather it be a transmission issue at this point.

Any experience would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Garrison]

What you're describing is pretty much on par with my experience as well; the DSG is hurky-jerky at single digit speeds, and also does not like shifting into first if not stopped. So that maybe "normal" to "slightly excessive" operation

The rattle/noise at idle is probably your DMF - I recently did mine, you can look through my posts to find it. Removing the transmission isn't "hard" but it's laborious. The DSG itself is very heavy for its size, so unless you're a beast, you're going to need a trans jack or hoist to lift it in and out. Once it's out, the DMF is not a bad job in and of itself, just make sure you use fresh ingredients and get your torque specs right.

These DSG units are usually pretty robust - as they're built to handle gobs more power and torque than the factory CR puts out. If you're having issues with its operation, you could always try tuning it stage 1. This will increase the clutch pressure a bit, but moreover, if your car is Dieselgate-d and they may have tuned your transmission as well as the engine; this tune would erase/modify that tune and provide you with what the car was meant to be from the factory.

Keep up the oil changes! If all the above still fails you, you could be looking at clutches or the mechatronic unit. If that's the case, I hope it's the latter and not the former

Best of luck

 

[oilhammer]

Replace the DMF, run through all the Adaptations, making sure the transmission is warm first. I bet that'll make it much better. I doubt you need a clutch yet. DSGs don't really fail.

 

[jesus_man]

Thanks for the advice. DMF does sound like it could be the noise issue. Could it also be the issue for the "slack" in the drivetrain? I suppose this is better news than a bad DSG. But it's a daunting task for a shade-tree mechanic like myself. I've always prevailed with some of those more labor intensive jobs (HPFP, Timing Belt, etc) but it is never something I look forward to for fear of getting stuck.

 

[oilhammer]

Well I know I'm spoiled, having a shop and all kinds of nice tools and equipment. However, if it helps, the 02E DSG isn't all that bad of a unit to R&R, even if you were doing it on the ground with hand tools.

 

[lemoncurd]

if it starts stalling, it's more than likely your mechatronics unit

i have exactly what you've described + occational stalling. im at 243k miles

yes, my DMF has been replaced. didnt fix it

if you have VCDS, go to these measuring blocks for the transmission, and take pictures + post the values

measuring blocks:

015 016 065

030 031 032

should be able to do it in 2 photo's, use the basic settings option to put 3 blocks in at once.

here is my measuring blocks of my likely bad mech:

image.png

• lemoncurd
• May 7, 2024

DSG_030_031_032.png

• lemoncurd
• May 7, 2024

DSG_065.png

• lemoncurd
• May 7, 2024

 

[jesus_man]

There are times it seems to want to push thru the brakes. I do have VCDS, but very unfamiliar with it. Although it looks like I could find my way to get those 6 values.

 

[lemoncurd]

There are times it seems to want to push thru the brakes. I do have VCDS, but very unfamiliar with it. Although it looks like I could find my way to get those 6 values.

yup, this happens to me too. it's like it doesnt want to let go of specifically second gear sometimes. it will bog the engine until the transmission eventually gives up and the RPM's fly up by about 250 for a breif second.

 

[ThomasCo]

if it starts stalling, it's more than likely your mechatronics unit

i have exactly what you've described + occational stalling. im at 243k miles

yes, my DMF has been replaced. didnt fix it

if you have VCDS, go to these measuring blocks for the transmission, and take pictures + post the values

measuring blocks:

015 016 065

030 031 032

should be able to do it in 2 photo's, use the basic settings option to put 3 blocks in at once.

here is my measuring blocks of my likely bad mech:

image.png

• lemoncurd
• May 7, 2024

DSG_030_031_032.png

• lemoncurd
• May 7, 2024

DSG_065.png

• lemoncurd
• May 7, 2024

Just curious, what are those values telling you and what seems to be off with yours?

 

[McGuirk]

yup, this happens to me too. it's like it doesnt want to let go of specifically second gear sometimes. it will bog the engine until the transmission eventually gives up and the RPM's fly up by about 250 for a breif second.

Mine does the same thing every so often. 160000mi

 

[lemoncurd]

Mine does the same thing every so often. 160000mi

vcds and get those measuring blocks measured. lets all compare.

if someone reading has a good working DSG, please do the same so we can see what healthy numbers look like!

Just curious, what are those values telling you and what seems to be off with yours?

@ me tomorrow, im off to bed but i can explain tomorrow. malone/tunezilla explained some of them breifly to me, and the others are somewhat self explanatory (atleast they are if my current understanding of them is correct)

 

[lemoncurd]

Just curious, what are those values telling you and what seems to be off with yours?

group 065: this is main pressure calibration. normal operating range is 0.5 - 2.5 bar. new cars are 0.5 - 1 bar (according to malone) they say >2.5 results in jerky operation
group 015: im not sure exactly what these are. perhaps resistance of the solenoid?
group 016: i believe this is the wear of the gear select solenoid
group 030: clutch 1 adaptation / wear information. curious how this compares to someone who just replaced their clutch pack! i want to see values of a new clutch so we can check clutch life. curious how good/bad mine is given my mileage and hard driving style
group 031: same as above but clutch 2
group 032: honestly dont know lol

 

[McGuirk]

vcds and get those measuring blocks measured. lets all compare.

if someone reading has a good working DSG, please do the same so we can see what healthy numbers look like!


@ me tomorrow, im off to bed but i can explain tomorrow. malone/tunezilla explained some of them breifly to me, and the others are somewhat self explanatory (atleast they are if my current understanding of them is correct)

@lemoncurd

Measuring blocks scanned while fluid was warm and gear was in park w/ foot on brake. Car has 160,000k and was malone stage 2 w/DSG tuned @140,000. I dont drive it too hard. DSG shifts smooth most of the time.

 

[T1MMBOJONES]

i thought that using the brake at a stop with the dsg was similar to applying the clutch pedal in a manual. i recall reading not to make a habbit of inching forward and to keep it fully applied while at a stop. it seems accelerating before letting off the brake (you must use both feet?) would just confuse this thing and cause delayed responses.

 

[jesus_man]

Admittedly, I don't do the creep forward much, but I probably am not pushing on the brake as hard as I should to create 100% disengagement. A bad habit I have been more cognizant of lately.

 

[lemoncurd]

i thought that using the brake at a stop with the dsg was similar to applying the clutch pedal in a manual. i recall reading not to make a habbit of inching forward and to keep it fully applied while at a stop. it seems accelerating before letting off the brake (you must use both feet?) would just confuse this thing and cause delayed responses.

yes and no. it starts ramping clutch pressue in as you release the brake pedal

you can hit the brake and gas at the same time, it's fine

you can also inch forward, just dont do it literally all the time, itll heat the clutch fluid up too much which thins it then begins to wear the clutch out.

@lemoncurd

Measuring blocks scanned while fluid was warm and gear was in park w/ foot on brake. Car has 160,000k and was malone stage 2 w/DSG tuned @140,000. I dont drive it too hard. DSG shifts smooth most of the time.

yeah man, sorry to say it but welcome to the #mechatronicsUnitIsProbablyBroken club

that gear selector 2-4 isnt looking good, just like mine.

hopefully someone with a normal DSG which is functioning as expected can chime in and post their figures.

 

[McGuirk]

yes and no. it starts ramping clutch pressue in as you release the brake pedal

you can hit the brake and gas at the same time, it's fine

you can also inch forward, just dont do it literally all the time, itll heat the clutch fluid up too much which thins it then begins to wear the clutch out.

yeah man, sorry to say it but welcome to the #mechatronicsUnitIsProbablyBroken club

that gear selector 2-4 isnt looking good, just like mine.

hopefully someone with a normal DSG which is functioning as expected can chime in and post their figures.

Anyone know of an American shop that repairs the mech units? Quite a few in the UK but haven't found one in the US.

 

[oilhammer]

I've got two cores here if you do....

 

[T1MMBOJONES]

yes and no. it starts ramping clutch pressue in as you release the brake pedal

you can hit the brake and gas at the same time, it's fine

you can also inch forward, just dont do it literally all the time, itll heat the clutch fluid up too much which thins it then begins to wear the clutch out.

yeah man, sorry to say it but welcome to the #mechatronicsUnitIsProbablyBroken club

that gear selector 2-4 isnt looking good, just like mine.

hopefully someone with a normal DSG which is functioning as expected can chime in and post their figures.

got ya, while i know how to drive a manual i dont claim to fully understand the mechanics of them and figured i may not be explaining it with complete accuracy. but either way i recalled reading this and will continue on with my current driving habbits as i feel they cant hurt, and yes i inch forward but not as impatiently as some....still not sure who accelerates and brakes simultanuosly....

 

[McGuirk]

Anyone tried replacing valves or the whole valve body assembly inside the Mechatronics unit? lots of good info out there. Seems most of the non fault code related issues are a valve in the valve body assembly or improperly performed basic settings using VCDS. Thinking of trying a redo on the basic settings with a properly done calibration drive afterwards as described here DSG TECH BLOG and then trying a new valve body assembly or valve before dropping over 1k on a whole assembly. Good read on the DSG 02E transmission here DSG 02E info. Heres a video of a repair on a similar mech unit Mech unit repair video.
@lemoncurd
@jesus_man

 

[oilhammer]

They also have a bunch of TINY little screens in them that can plug up with clutch material or whatever, causing some strange problems.

 

[McGuirk]

They also have a bunch of TINY little screens in them that can plug up with clutch material or whatever, causing some strange problems.

Also saw that as well. That YouTuber diagnosedan did a good video fixing a different model DSG with a screen jammed into a valve inside the mech.

 

[oilhammer]

I feel like there is a good opportunity for someone to refurbish these. But really in order to do it correctly, you'd need some way to diagnose and test them, both electronically and hydro-mechanically.

Because more and more each day seem to fail, for whatever reason, and there are some versions that are NLA from Volkswagen. The ones used with the BRMs for instance.

Too much work involved to be R&Ring them to see if they are actually fixed or not. It isn't like R&Ring the valve body on an 01M or something.

 

[lemoncurd]

Anyone tried replacing valves or the whole valve body assembly inside the Mechatronics unit? lots of good info out there. Seems most of the non fault code related issues are a valve in the valve body assembly or improperly performed basic settings using VCDS. Thinking of trying a redo on the basic settings with a properly done calibration drive afterwards as described here DSG TECH BLOG and then trying a new valve body assembly or valve before dropping over 1k on a whole assembly. Good read on the DSG 02E transmission here DSG 02E info. Heres a video of a repair on a similar mech unit Mech unit repair video.
@lemoncurd
@jesus_man

i tore down a spare unit oilhammer gave me, beyond checking wires, resistance on solenoids, and then checking the PCB........ i couldnt do much else.

but yes, oilhammer is right. theres a HUGE opportunity here for someone to start repairing these!

 

[lemoncurd]

I think my tranny is failing slowly. Pretty much since I bought the car @ 92k, shifting from R to D or just pulling away from a stop, it's grabbed hard occasionally and has gotten progressively more common. I have done a few DSG services without any improvement. Car now has 205k. So, what are my options? Anyone know where I can buy a new one to R&R or perhaps a good used one would be a better route? Do I need to worry too much about year differences? How hard is this job?

For more detailed information about what I experience, imagine pulling up to a stop light and coming to a complete stop, or even just near to it. Light turns green and if I press the throttle immediately at all, the transmission jolts into gear and away we go. I can only avoid this if I just let off the brake first, allowing the transmission to engage before I get on the throttle, but that takes a bit longer. I have changed my driving style to match this in order to preserve this tranny as long as I can, but it is getting worse. It does not like downshift at speeds lower than @ 40 either and does the same jolt. But I don't notice any issues at highway speeds. There is a noise at idle like a rattling that I seems to emanate from the transmission and I think I can feel it there as well. I believe it to be consistent with engine RPM, but I will have to get my son to help me confirm that. Engine runs amazing, and fuel mileage has remained consistent so I guess I'd rather it be a transmission issue at this point.

Any experience would be greatly appreciated!

hey, i got some news for you

i spoke with maktrans and he says it's my clutchpack.

given we have similar symptoms, it is likely your clutchpack is also going bad.

i did some googling about, and a failing clutchpack shows symptoms just like what we are experiencing.

Who here had diagnosed bad clutches in a DSG?

www.vwvortex.com

DSG Clutch pack finally worn or is this bigger?

I have 108000 miles on the S6 at this point. I have some worsening clutch issues accelerating from a stop or braking to a stop. When leaving from a stop, sometimes the clutch engages/disengages several times until several MPH are achieved. This is VERY noticeable. Other times I'll start to...

www.audizine.com

i spoke with some shops, and given my mileage it looks like swapping in a known good used DSG is the best way forward.
waiting on hearing back final numbers for the job, but this looks like what im going to do...

 

[jesus_man]

Well, that is not good news. But I also have the rattling of the DMF, which I assume is attached to the engine? After doing some scanning in those links, I don't believe I have any slippage. Once it grabs, I can go hard on the throttle and have great acceleration. With the noises I hear at idle, my DMF is the most likely culprit, but I also worry about the MU as well and don't really want to drop that thing twice.

Keep me posted on your findings. If I could source a good used DSG that was a direct plug-n-play, I may be temped to perform this all myself. If only all those dieselgate cars didn't have to be crushed... such a travesty!!

 

[Garrison]

Keep me posted on your findings. If I could source a good used DSG that was a direct plug-n-play, I may be temped to perform this all myself. If only all those dieselgate cars didn't have to be crushed... such a travesty!!

Make sure to do the DMF before installing your new trans so you dont have to worry about it

You can do the swap man, mechanically it isnt that hard. IMO the hard part would be coding the new trans but I could be off on that

 

[ThomasCo]

Make sure to do the DMF before installing your new trans so you dont have to worry about it

You can do the swap man, mechanically it isnt that hard. IMO the hard part would be coding the new trans but I could be off on that

Wouldn’t the biggest issue be - when doing this operation on the ground w/no shop at your disposal - to get the old transmission out and the new one in? I’m not talking connections here, just the plain removal and installation. I am assuming a DSG weighs quite a bit, which is why it would require a tranny jack. Would you have to have the car high enough on stands so that the tranny jack lowers the DSG and you can just pull it out from underneath?

Serious question. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have the car on the ground and just jack the DSG up high enough that you can take it out like a case of beer.

 

[Garrison]

Wouldn’t the biggest issue be - when doing this operation on the ground w/no shop at your disposal - to get the old transmission out and the new one in? I’m not talking connections here, just the plain removal and installation. I am assuming a DSG weighs quite a bit, which is why it would require a tranny jack. Would you have to have the car high enough on stands so that the tranny jack lowers the DSG and you can just pull it out from underneath? Serious question. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have the car on the ground and just jack the DSG up high enough that you can take it out like a case of beer.

Yeah I can see why you would think that was a concern. In short, the easiest way I found was to pull the front clip off - this means draining the coolant and unbolting the AC compressor so you can swing it over the fender (leaving the AC line connected). As I was doing the Timing Belt job at the same time, this was actually a huge advantage as it gets EVERYTHING out of the way and leaves you with a very nice open platform. This whole thing can be accomplished in about an hour.

To be clear, it can be done without this, on the ground, and even without the use of a trans jack (<-- @ 23:00 minutes)

The biggest piece of helpful advice I received (and was unable to implement) was to use a cherry-picker/engine hoist to support the trans as you pull it out & put it back in - taking 90% of the headache out of the process.

If you had a stopwatch and the correct tools, I bet you'd find you could perform the removal in 4-6hrs.

It's not a cakewalk, but it's not the biggest job in the world. She is a heavy little piglet though

 

[lemoncurd]

quick update on this thread.

im quite upset with my Malone tunes.

i just switched back to original flash file, did adaptations, took it on the test drive, and all my problems are now fixed. it drives as smooth as a new DSG (i drove one on the weekend, so it's fresh in my memory)

yes, even with my nearly quarter million miles.

i took a read of malones tune, flash back my original, took a read of that, and sent them to my new tuner. he confirmed the suspicions, the same he had for another "stage 4" user from malone.

mostly, if not entirely, tune related. adaptation maps messed up, PID control maps messed up for gear shift + clutch engagement, and a barbaric pressure increase to hold more torque. new tuner is shocked i was able to do adaptations successfuly on the malone "tune" at all!

waiting on new tune, from my new tuner. same guy thats tuning my ECU.

the issues i had before are so bad, im quite literally making the conscious decision to stay on my original VW file, with a big turbo CRTDI.
thats how big of a difference this is.

yes, i have brought these issues up with malone, they stated i should swap my mech unit.
i then reached out to a knowledgable point of contact for DSG's, maktrans. explained my situation and they said clutch pack.

this confused me, which started me down this path. and here we are. it was neither.

frankly to say im upset is an understandment. the people at malone are great, but it seems their tunes are just purely incompetent. im speaking with someone who has a stage 2 on his TDI, similar issues to me. flashed back to stock, all issues gone.
absurd.

i have gone through 3 tune revisions for the DSG with malone btw, wonder how long until i have malone worshippers come out of the woodwork for this. i used to be on the malone bandwagon, hardcore. but im not anymore. im more disappointed than anything i suppose. upset and disappointed

my advice for DSG tune: use TVS engineering, or find a competent boutique / indie tuner. APR, malone, etc tunes aren't going to help you.
the most competent "big tuner" i have seen is kerma. so add them to my recommendation list too if you so desire.