Drive It Like I Stole It? What does that mean?

85_305

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Location
Buffalo NY/FT Bragg, NC
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1999.5 Jetta 5spd
Well, I agree with your rationale 100% These are not Indy cars or anything close!

The WOT crap is what eventually brings your TDI engine to an early death....my two cents! (come on gurus and give me a good scolding:D)

Now, sure, the ACTUATOR needs exercised occasionally to keep things free inside the Turbo, namely the Vane system!

I've always practiced taking my engine up to 3800 to 4000 RPMs in a couple of gears under load (no revvvving in neutral) two or three times per tank of fuel.................AND at almost 280k miles, the engine runs fine,,,,life time average is above 50 MPG! I never have to add oil between changes. Mods: no snow screen, EGR delete...that's it!

Your TDI will "pull" in 5th gear on the level with 0 throttle...the ECU will maintain fueling enough for the 903 rpm idle speed....diesel torque! So, depending on the circumstances, 1500 - 1700 RPMs on the road is not lugging the engine. And, at those RPMs the Turbo is providing some boost (spooling...LOL)..... check it out with VCDS or ScanGuage!:D
Spot on! Like you said, riding high rpm's is what will kill the motor. Just because it CAN run 4-5k rpms for overtaking/merging etc, it is NOT meant to be sustained at those rpms. As far as pulling in 5th gear with zero throttle.. EVERY gear can do that. I can go thru every single gear in my car without touching the throttle ONCE, and minimal clutch slip. 4th and 5th require very little clutch slip. But it can be done. I've already had to prove it to one of my buddies.

If you shift at 2K, and very gradually add fuel to keep from bogging, you really are driving like a granny. I've tried it, and it's about as much fun as mud-bogging a Prius.
Thats how you drive an economical car... economically. Who would have thought that?
 

FlashT

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Feb 28, 2010
Location
LA
TDI
'98 NB - sold
Originally Posted by XXX_er
I think if you look at the speed limits in N.A. you will see that the car has been engineered to drive nicely at the posted speed limits with the engine speed at just over 2000 .
Not true. TDI's were not designed for the low speed limits that are seen here in North America, but for european motorways like the Autobahn.

Originally Posted by 85_305
Spot on! Like you said, riding high rpm's is what will kill the motor. Just because it CAN run 4-5k rpms for overtaking/merging etc, it is NOT meant to be sustained at those rpms. As far as pulling in 5th gear with zero throttle.. EVERY gear can do that. I can go thru every single gear in my car without touching the throttle ONCE, and minimal clutch slip. 4th and 5th require very little clutch slip. But it can be done. I've already had to prove it to one of my buddies.
The stock rev limit is not "high rpm's" for this engine. Even revving to 5K on every shift would not cause excessive wear if you are using the proper oil. Revving high only results in greater fuel consumption, not greater wear.

Also, regularly driving with the rpm's below 2K will result in excessive oil consumption due to the fact the labryinth seal in the turbo is not sufficiently sealed because enough boost is not being generated.
 

85_305

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Jun 20, 2010
Location
Buffalo NY/FT Bragg, NC
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1999.5 Jetta 5spd
While you do raise some good points, the faster the motor turns, the greater the wear on bearings, rings, etc will be.
As far as the stock rev limiter not being rpms for this motor, I beg to differ. Why else would there be a rev limiter? To prevent dummies from overspeeding their motors.

I always shift between 2krpms and 2500rpms, and I dont use a drop of oil between changes.

Ok ok.. maybe it consumes a drop. But nothing noticeable on the dipstick.
 

FlashT

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Feb 28, 2010
Location
LA
TDI
'98 NB - sold
When I say "high rpm's" I mean 5.5K and 6K rpm tunes. VW engineers built our engines within a safe margin so that our motors do not rev too high, as you say. My personal belief is that stock or even mildly modified engines will not incur noticeably excessive wear when frequently revving near the stock limiter because there is not enough heat, pressure, or friction that would cause the motor to fail before 300K+ miles. Maintenence is the key to longevity IMO.
 

VWBeamer

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Jan 1, 2009
Location
GA
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
Thanks Bro!!!

However, the engine is not built for economy or performance at RPMs just barely above idle after shifting to the next gear if you shift at 2000 RPM.

Best fuel economy is with a light foot at the torque sweetspot around 2000 RPM. This is where the engine operates most efficiently whether applying light throttle and cruising or accelerating at full WOT. This is where RPMs should be AFTER a shift when accelerating and when cruising along. Winding it up to 3000 RPM or higher before shifting, i.e., shift at NO LESS than 3000 RPM lands you around 2000 RPM in the next gear and avoids lugging the engine, even if you're at WOT. I say shift at NO LESS than 3k RPM because if you need more acceleration, take the RPMs higher before shifting. The graph below shows where the RPMs should be.



The graph is for a BEW PD engine but is similar for an ALH engine and CR TDI engines. Basically avoid putting along or applying heavy throttle in RPMs under 2000, take it to at least 3000 before shifting when accelerating, anything above ~ 4000 RPM is a waste unless your TDI has performance mods enabling it to pull hard all the way to redline.

In an earlier post you suggested 2800 RPM and NO HIGHER. Why? What will happen to the engine if I rev it to 4000 RPM before shifting on a daily basis? :confused: The engine is mechanically able to spin in excess of 8000 RPM but we don't see those RPMs because the engine is combustion limited to around 5000 RPM as a practical and safe RPM limit. The shift guidelines I mention are meant to keep the engine operating in the RPM range where it's designed to run in (2000 - 4000 RPM approx) while delivering best performance AND fuel economy.

2500 cold / 3000+ warm / 4000 max / 2000+ cruise / avoid heavy throttle under 2000.
 

VWBeamer

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Location
GA
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
Tell me. how is WOT at "low rpm" going to hurt a turbo that doesn't any any real drive pressure behind it yet? What is "low rpm" anyways?

The real problem with low RPM WOT is not the turbo, it's the barring and rings. At lower RPM's you have less oil pressure and depending on the tune, you may have very high cylinder pressure. That's the problem.
I should take you for a ride in my truck and show you want 2500rpm is like. :) LOL LOL at most of you guys. this is hilarious. :)
Read this thread

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299533


There is some debate, but High loads at low rpm are not good for any engine IMHO.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
ha ah ah hahahahha ahahhaahaha


I'm L O L ing at this thread. :)

I think VW should bring back the idiot "up shift light" to put these silly threads to rest. :)
I'm Laughing Out Loud at LOLing phhht...what is that! LOL...lots of good points and banter...hope everyones enjoying their holidays!!!
It is a hoot every time I read "Drive it like you stole it"

I suppose this thread shows most folks do not know how to steal a car.
You do not attract attention with high RPMs or Speed, and do not drive too Slow and attract attention either. You drive and obey all traffic laws and get the car off the road as quick as possible and part the sucker out, or change the numbers on the car. If you keep the car you want to behave or they might check the care out more closely, and catch you at your trade.

"Use spirited but legal driving" would be a much better description of how to drive the TDI cars.

LOL

eddif
 

TDIJetta99

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2005
Location
Port Jervis, New York, USA
TDI
03... Faster than yours =]
Ya if I were to ever steal a car, you wouldn't see me thrashing it...

As far as high rpm's go, it really doesn't hurt them at all.. I don't see the automatic cars eating up engines, and they turn 3500+ going 75-80mph.. Some of the gassers I work on, especially this 2000 2.0 auto we have here at the shop, will turn 4000rpm at 70mph... It happens to have 240k on it and runs fine..
 

Jerry_T

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Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Location
Charlotte, N.C.
TDI
2001 Golf Silver, 2006 Jetta White & Red, 2014 Passat
Hi,

I recently got an ALH MKVI 5-speed, and I've been getting to know it. I quickly learned that there is really no point in revving it past 4200 RPM, and the engine doesn't seem 'happy' if I add fuel at below 1800 RPM or so.

Absolutely correct.

My driving routine has me down shifting if the revs drop below 2000 or so, and since there is no power gain above 4k or so, I downshift around there.

I see people post here that they like to do an "Italian Tune-Up" every week or so, revving it up to 4k once a week or so. What? I do that about forty times on the way to work every morning.

When it's cold, I upshift at about 2800 RPM, and when it's warmed up, I upshift at about 3800 to 4200 RPM.

+1

I try to keep the turbo spooled up, not lugging it below 2000 or so. I'm not that familiar with the variable vane technology in the TDI-- it's so controlled that I barely notice there is a turbocharger in the system.

Install a boost gauge to monitor.

I recently had PowerPlus 520 injector nozzles installed; currently running the stock ECM tune. The difference is amazing! The torque and power around 3K are incredible. I can't wait to tailor the tune to the injector set. Due to scheduling conflicts, I decided to try the new nozzles with the stock tune first. The Kerma advertising led me to believe that I might expect significant horsepower and torque values, with actually increased FE. We'll see.

+1 0n the PP520 - Right foot determines fuel economy ! ! !


Something about the powerband in these things makes me want to go fast. The car's worst moment is accelerating from a stop. Its strong point is squirting from a 40 MPH cruise through a hole in traffic. Torque!

+1

I'm not trying to wring the little car out, but the natural driving technique the car seems to ask for is to upshift at 4000 RPM or so, and downshift around 2000 RPM.

R's up = happy for you and the car.

Am I driving this car okay? The previous owner 'catastrophically' detonated a turbo at 60027 miles (ouch!), and another one at 94k-ish. From what I've heard, the granny driving might have added to the failures.

Yes - True

So far, the car is running great. The only real complaint I have is that the 15" stock wheels/rims handle like a Prius. I get so much sidewall lean that I'm afraid to drive it like I want to. In the market for some 17" rims and tires from a GLI. Then I can punish those corners...

Stock VW very well known for body roll.

Thoughts?

Lee
This thread had me lol more than most.

Conan, seems as though you have things very well under control ! ! !

One thing not mentioned, or I missed it, is to roll into the throttle - not slamming the pedal to the floor.

As with most threads on all forums, this one has more misleading info than fact based info. Only with time spent reading will you know who has it and who doesn't. IMHO :D
 

85_305

Banned
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Location
Buffalo NY/FT Bragg, NC
TDI
1999.5 Jetta 5spd
It is a hoot every time I read "Drive it like you stole it"

I suppose this thread shows most folks do not know how to steal a car.
You do not attract attention with high RPMs or Speed, and do not drive too Slow and attract attention either. You drive and obey all traffic laws and get the car off the road as quick as possible and part the sucker out, or change the numbers on the car. If you keep the car you want to behave or they might check the care out more closely, and catch you at your trade.

"Use spirited but legal driving" would be a much better description of how to drive the TDI cars.

LOL

eddif
Drive it like the cops are chasing you and the TV news chopper is overhead? Kind of a mouthful.

These 2 posts had my ballsack acquiring chaffing from my laughing it off.

This thread had me lol more than most.

Conan, seems as though you have things very well under control ! ! !

One thing not mentioned, or I missed it, is to roll into the throttle - not slamming the pedal to the floor.

As with most threads on all forums, this one has more misleading info than fact based info. Only with time spent reading will you know who has it and who doesn't. IMHO :D
So you mean to tell me that all of our threads are not fact based, but yours is the Holy VW Bible??
 

ruking

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Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
When I say "high rpm's" I mean 5.5K and 6K rpm tunes. VW engineers built our engines within a safe margin so that our motors do not rev too high, as you say. My personal belief is that stock or even mildly modified engines will not incur noticeably excessive wear when frequently revving near the stock limiter because there is not enough heat, pressure, or friction that would cause the motor to fail before 300K+ miles. Maintenence is the key to longevity IMO.

I think track time for TDI's belies what you say. ToTheMax has a thread for an 03 Golf TDI and he has run the stock engine into oblivion, did an engine re build. Last I read that rebuild went south (as a result of track running) for some reason.
 
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Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
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Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
I think track time for TDI's belies what you say. ToTheMax has a thread for an 03 Golf TDI and he has run the stock engine into oblivion, did an engine re build. Last I read that rebuild went south (as a result of track running) for some reason.
And there's IndigoBlueWagon's track time too with stock internals.
 

ruking

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
And there's IndigoBlueWagon's track time too with stock internals.
So the NNN effect is between the two of them they are only down 1.5 average engines instead of 3 ;):D?

(I see tothemax @ NewTDI's place when he hosts the local GTG's. Peter has been to the GTG's several times.)
 
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nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
No ruking. ToTheMax's engine was so far from stock...did you read the post by FlashT that you quoted and responded to?

Read it carefully, again.
 

ruking

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
No ruking. ToTheMax's engine was so far from stock...did you read the post by FlashT that you quoted and responded to?

Read it carefully, again.

Well one point (actually a no brainer) would be the effort was intended to get past the "safety area incorporated into stock TDI's" (I would assume that to mean 5,100 redline) !!!. Careful reading cuts many ways.

So... to "track" a vehicle (nexus...even bone stock) and to NOT expect/be prepared for non standard wear up to catastrophic break down (engine) would be the height of naive'te. I would submit IndigoBlueWagon does not fall into that category. Indeed (come what may and EITHER way) it can serve as good advertising/marketing.;) Now that is a WIN WIN WIN transaction !!:cool:
 
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AndyBees

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May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Down shifting for what????

Hi, My driving routine has me down shifting if the revs drop below 2000 or so, and since there is no power gain above 4k or so, I downshift around there. Thoughts? Lee
Obviously the above is only part of the quote.....

A little closer look--> ....."and since there is no power gain above 4k or so, I downshift around there..."

Wow! Then with that 4k downshift what does that do for POWER....something absolutely crazy about such driving!

What are you saying? What are you trying to tell us!

The RPMs on my engine have only been briefly above 4000 less than a dozen times since I've owned the car! And, as I stated in a previous post, excellent performance, fuel economy, etc......no problems with the Actuator/turbo, no oil consumption....
 

Derrel H Green

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Jun 2, 2002
Location
Murrieta, California
TDI
An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
No no

:)

"and since there is no power gain above 4k or so, I downshift around there"

I think what he meant to say was:

"and since there is no power gain above 4k or so, I upshift around there"

:D

D
 

Conan

Veteran Member
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Dec 2, 2010
Location
Denver
TDI
2003 GLS TDI
Ha!

Yep, I'm a dumb gasser driver, so when I feel the power start to drop off around 4000 RPM, I downshift to try like an idiot to find the powerband! Thanks for all the helpful posts here. I really like the TDI, but it's a total schooling going on here as to how to drive it. It's a new thing to me.
 

85_305

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Jun 20, 2010
Location
Buffalo NY/FT Bragg, NC
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1999.5 Jetta 5spd
holyballs. E-Sarcasm > 85_305.

Ah well, ya cant win them all. At least you clarified that. I was seriously going to go to bed thinking about what a dumba$$ you were.
 

Conan

Veteran Member
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Dec 2, 2010
Location
Denver
TDI
2003 GLS TDI
The sorry thing is that I'm probably even more ignorant than my attempts at e-sarcasm... I've looked all over HarborFreight.com, and can't find a damned spark plug wrench for this thing. Cheap Chinese crap.
 

85_305

Banned
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Location
Buffalo NY/FT Bragg, NC
TDI
1999.5 Jetta 5spd
Huh.. thats strange. Maybe you need one of those 'special' sparkplug removers for these? Those invisible ones, that you click on to the end of your ratchet but you dont even know they are there?
 
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