Does the fuel stay in the line to the IP?

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Hello,

I have yet another problem.

The car does not start. It turns over and has a chug or hiccup as if it were going to start but never does.

I notice the fuel being sucked back to the filter when I turn the key off. Is that normal, or is the fuel supposed to stay in the line?

I am asking this because I first changed the pump. EVERYTHING in VCDS checked out normal (timing, IQ, Idle speed, etc.).

I had rough cold starts, even when it was 80 degrees outside. After it started it.

I also had to bleed the injectors every few days.

I replaced the thermostatic-T, no avail
I replaced the injector hard line, avail for injector 1 and 2. injector 3 only likes the shotty old OEM line.

I replaced the fuel sending unit with an oem, non pump deuce lift pump.

I replaced the thermostatic-T fuel filter with a permanent-T fuel filter.

I noticed a check valve on my black fuel line by the sending unit when I replaced it. I am narrowing it down to that if that is the issue. I went to the scrap yard and I could only find a new beetle alh and it had no check valve on the black fuel line by the tank sending unit. Is this check valve standard for jetta's only? It looks as if it is part of the oem line, it does not look like a mod.

I also replaced the injector nozzles with .205's and have an EGR delete. Could this be the issue of a ECU needing to be tuned?

I appreciate any input. I have $400 to my name and cannot afford a new car. I need this one reliable so I can save money. If it would guarantee my car being dependable, I would spend all $400.

Thank you.
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
Sounds like you have a fuel line leak. The lines should be full of fuel all the time, otherwise, you have hard starts and need to prime the fuel line.

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Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
I think so as well. It is just that everything looks good atop and I've even sprayed soapy water on everything. I do not see anything. I assume the blue and black hard line from firewall to tank.

Would you think I could hear the air leaking while I have a vacuum pump, pumping?

Not always?
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
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Detection of a fuel leak is a bit different from pressurized fuel.
My first motion is to use a simple green and spray the entire engine and clean it so there's no diesel to be seen. Then I keep it that way, always.
We look for signs of a leak by determining if there are any well spots and go from there.
It can be difficult to determine where the fuel is leaking as certain things can affect it.
Looking at the lines between the injectors themselves the fuel pump and the line back to the filter.
If any of those injector return lines look cracked and worn replacement is the only option to stop all possible leaks. The line back to the filter can usually be cut and stretched a couple times over it's lifetime.
If you prime and fill the lines then determine the leak is elsewhere the pump is suspect for leaking seals. Even, and especially, if it's a new fuel pump.
There are a few threads on the subject and you should read through a few.

Search linked in tdi 101
https://cse.google.com/cse?q=+&cx=018097697432185261444:_idbzjdyxdm

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Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Thank you for the continued feedback.

I will try and clean out the engine bay tomorrow morning before work.

As for an update...

I put on cheap clear hose from tractor supply in order to see what was going on. (it was chemical resistant and high temp, but it is 45 degrees here and it became hard and not pliable like the regular 8mm hose from id parts.

I put the black 8mm hose back on and it has a nice chuck before not starting.

These hoses are 4 years old (maybe the cause)

I was so gung hoe about the chug but no start that I went and messed with the timing because I know it will act in the same fashion when the timing is out a little. I put the IP pulley back to where I think I had it before all this happened, but I wish I never moved it because now I may have two problems. :eek:

The starting chug but no avail to start was way better with the ID parts cheap 8mm hose back on it. (those who do not know, the fuel filter to IP hose is $100+ and the ID parts 8mm hose is $6 a meter)

The little 3mm hose return lines were new 1.5 months ago, but has had a mess of fuel dipped all over them from not covering the injectors with paper towel while bleeding. I will replace them in the morning. (I bought 5 meters just for this reason and it is in the trunk)

I also would like to add that when I replaced the sending unit, the arrow and chalk line on my car were not lined up. I removed it and spun it to line up and made sure it did not move this time when I screwed it back down. This for what ever reason that does not make sense helped the starting as well. I may be wishing it did and it did not though. :confused:

Edit:
I forgot to mention I put the removable thermostatic-T filter back in. This also seemed to help. Possibly not, it still doesn't run. aye aye aye
 
Last edited:

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
You seem to still have a leakage in the fuel system allowing a loss of prime.

Spilling that small amount of diesel on those small hoses will not affect them (assuming it's diesel grade material) if they have fuel on them, don't worry about it. They carry diesel internally all the time anyway. They should be ok.

What brand of filter did you buy? Could it be defective in construction where the thermo T goes? Also, how did you bypass the thermoT?
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
It would be really keen if you'd stick to one thread. Then we could see what you've done, what you haven't, what has been suggested, etc.

I replaced the fuel sending unit with an oem, non pump deuce lift pump.
Does this mean you have a pump in the tank or not? I interpret it to mean you have a lift pump from a non PD car but that should quickly bleed the system.

Check valves are built in to some fuel pickups. Some guys drill them out. They aren't necessary if your fuel system is air tight.

I agree with the others that you still have a leak.

Where's the injection pump from?
 
Last edited:

SilverGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
Hmmm, bad fuel filter leaking air (have also heard a couple people with CAT filters having issues, but not everyone with CAT filters). Also formed fuel lines are $$$, but is there a check valve or fixed orifice in there that makes them so $$$?

Fuel hard line between fuel tank and "firewall" damaged and leaking and/or crushed.

Where is IP from - some people have mentioned a certain shop/person sells crap parts.

Is unit in fuel tank a non-PD lift pump, PD lift pump, or ALH with no lift pump?

Cheap trick I use - put a small container of fuel, about 2/3 full, in engine bay (Gatorade bottle works) with supply and return directly from IP submerged in fuel. Clear hoses helps see if fuel is staying in lines. IP should be able to prime it self and start pretty quickly with strong battery and pump previously primed. If not then crack fuel lines and prime, then re-try. Now should be able to start easily and not loose prime. Second half of this test is to provide fuel under pressure to IP and see if it starts, then relieve pressure and see if engine dies. I use Mighty Vac than can also push pressure - only need couple PSI. I have seen transfer pump (inside IP on VE cars) fail even thou injection part still works.

Jason
 

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Oem alh sending unit, no pump in sending unit.

Beck and arnley permanent t fuel filter

Wix (the $25 one from orielly’s can’t remember for sure the name brand) removable t fuel filter)
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Oem alh sending unit, no pump in sending unit.
Beck and arnley permanent t fuel filter
Wix (the $25 one from orielly’s can’t remember for sure the name brand) removable t fuel filter)

And injection pump from that-guy-who-will-sell-parts-of-questionable-quality?
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
I replaced the injector hard line, avail for injector 1 and 2. injector 3 only likes the shotty old OEM line.

The above statement worries me, it throws a huge red flag!

Not sure where you're at, however, you need to approach this methodically.

Definitely start with having a fuel bottle and fill the lines to get everything prime. Absolute recommended a clear line to see the bubbles and air.

If the hard lines are leaking as you say #3 wouldn't take a new line makes me suspicious somethings wrong there.

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Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
I replaced the injector hard line, avail for injector 1 and 2. injector 3 only likes the shotty old OEM line.

The above statement worries me, it throws a huge red flag!

Not sure where you're at, however, you need to approach this methodically.

Definitely start with having a fuel bottle and fill the lines to get everything prime. Absolute recommended a clear line to see the bubbles and air.

If the hard lines are leaking as you say #3 wouldn't take a new line makes me suspicious somethings wrong there.

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It does not leak atm

It ran like crap after I got to 3rd injector while replacing the hard line. Found it shooting diesel about a mile down the road. Tightened it again and still had problems. Put the oem line back on it and it does not leak.

I am saying it started right up after injector hardline 1 and 2 replacement. Choking start after injector 3 hardline. Of course 4 has a new hardline but unable to systematically say it is helping because issue started again after injector 3 hardline.
 

Dreznon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Location
Muskegon, MI
TDI
ALH
Before I go ahead and buy yet another ip pump, I have a question.

If I wire in a sending unit with a pump in it, do you think it will fix the weak “you know who” pump?

Send me links to ip pumps please. Not trying to spend over $1000 for an ip pump tbh.

Ps: if the seals at bad in the ip pump wouldn’t it mean diesel would leak out? Because the ip pump is not leaking.
 
Last edited:

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Before I go ahead and buy yet another ip pump, I have a question.

If I wire in a sending unit with a pump in it, do you think it will fix the weak “you know who” pump?

Send me links to ip pumps please. Not trying to spend over $1000 for an ip pump tbh.

Ps: if the seals at bad in the ip pump wouldn’t it mean diesel would leak out? Because the ip pump is not leaking.

Maybe you rig up a small inline pump to prime your system before start up? It would be waaaay cheaper than buying the in tank lift pump and wiring to make that work.

No, the fuel doesn't have to necessarily leak out, but it won't hold it from allowing air to leak in. That's the way my pump seals failed on me when i resealed it with a kit. I think it also depends on where the leak is located on the pump.
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2005 BEW Wagon
Before I go ahead and buy yet another ip pump, I have a question.

If I wire in a sending unit with a pump in it, do you think it will fix the weak “you know who” pump?
Very likely the answer is a big NO.

The you-know-who pump can have many other quality/workmanship problems besides a weak vane pump, which is all you'd bandaid by adding an extra lift pump.

It's a precision instrument and the center of the engine's operation. :)
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Asheville, NC
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
One thing about fuel is the molecules are larger than air, so the air will get in before the fuel gets out. This is why we have issues with hard starts that are nearly undetectable.
I understand number the is not leaking fuel out, but is it leaking air in? That's why I said it's questionable.
You can move forward and get a siphon pump with a bulb and clear line to see if you can pull past the ip. It's also a way to see bubbles and whatnot

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Last edited:

SilverGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
Second half of this test is to provide fuel under pressure to IP and see if it starts, then relieve pressure and see if engine dies. I use Mighty Vac than can also push pressure - only need couple PSI. I have seen transfer pump (inside IP on VE cars) fail even thou injection part still works.
Like I said earlier. This part of the test will tell you if vane pump is working. No point in trying to make a shoddy pump work. Something else could fail and leave you stuck somewhere.

Jason
 
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