Does Acetone Addition to Fuel Lower Consumption?

[CoolitDown13]

Can you use acetone in fuel that contains 10% ethanol?

I don't have a tdi, I have a gasser (98 civic). Could acetone work in my car?

I currently use ethosFR in my tank; it works well. I am looking for an added boost, and I think acetone might be the best (and least expensive) option.

 

[nicklockard]

For the record: we are testing acetone in as scientifically objective a manner as possible.

Don't take this to mean we endorse it. Personally I don't think it will do squat. That's the null hypothesis: acetone will not increase fuel economy.

The downsides have been noted. You are your own warranty if you put acetone in your tank. It's a bad idea.

 

[nicklockard]

Monies recieved from Dave and Mark (jackbombay.)

TYVM.

Apointment is for Friday afternoon.

 

[b0gman]

Acetone

I have used on and off for a couple months 2.5oz of acetone when i fill up. I dont do it every time for fear of damage to the vehicle as i have not been able to get info on possible damage. When used in a proper ratio i do notice a bump in milage on the order of about 4-6mpg.

 

[tdinfected]

03 manual tdi, upsolute stage II,oldman,pp520,exhaust, flat 40 mpg without acetone, 43 with. 93 F350,2w crewlong dually 7.3 diesel,banks sidewinder, 5 speed,14 without acetone, 16 with.

 

[ofhs93]

Wow...the anecdotale evidence continues to pile up. I think it's time for me to take the plunge and see what the real deal is. My mileage is VERY consistent and my commute is dead on the same 125 miles round trip 80% or so highway with the cruise set to 75/76 indicated MPH. Over the last 3-4 tanks that has equaled out to 50.2-51.5 MPG. I already use Howes Diesel Treat as an additive so it will be interesting to see if the addition of acetone makes any difference on top of the Howes.

 

[JettaJake]

go for it! I am seeing a 1-3 mpg bump myself....

...after swapping to a .681 5th gear ^J^

 

[jackbombay]

I saw a 12 MPG LOSS with acetone recently when driving from Wyoming to PDX....

while towing a trailer into a 30 MPH headwind all day.

 

[nicklockard]

Mark, that's one thing I hate about Wyoming: it's all uphill and against the wind!

 

[jackbombay]

go for it! I am seeing a 1-3 mpg bump myself....

...after swapping to a .681 5th gear ^J^

Oh, I almost forgot,

were you able to note the direction of the prevailing winds? any idea of the avg wind speeds during your runs? did you check tire pressure prior to each run? after? did you fill with the same brand of fuel for each run? cargo weight remain same? etc, etc, etc.... --> marginally meaningful data

Teheeheeheee

 

[JettaJake]

nyuk nyuk nyuk

 

[nicklockard]

Oh, I almost forgot,

were you able to note the direction of the prevailing winds? any idea of the avg wind speeds during your runs? did you check tire pressure prior to each run? after? did you fill with the same brand of fuel for each run? cargo weight remain same? etc, etc, etc.... --> marginally meaningful data

Teheeheeheee

Windspeed vector relative to the flight characteristics of an African or a European Swallow?

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Hello, Everyone:
I am two thirds of the way through my first tank of “acetoned” fuel and I I would like to add my thoughts to the acetone discussion. I can understand why there are both skeptics and believers. I can also understand why results are variable.

When acetone is added to the diesel it DOES act as a cetane boost. Different quality diesel will see a different effect from acetone addition. And if you already use a cetane boost, you aren’t going to see much benefit from acetone.

So while acetone can help fuel economy, it has ONE BIG LIMITATION.
The acetone does not stay in the diesel indefinitely. As you heat the fuel and recirculate it through your tank, it wants to “outgas” from the liquid. It’s like CO2 in a two liter bottle. By the time you get to the last eight ounces of coke, the fizz is diminished.

I normally get 40 mpg during my weekly commute. Last week I added three ounces of acetone to my tank and filled up. During the first 4 days after fill up, I was getting 48 mpg. The fifth day I got 43 mpg and the 6th through 8th days averaged about 41 mpg. Can you see how different driving patterns can cause different results? If you only commute 100 miles per week, I can’t imagine you seeing an effect over a full tank.

I am going to try a second tank using 4 ounces of acetone (2.5 oz/10 gal) and see if I can stay at the peak concentration a little while longer. Can anyone else repeat my finding by tracking their fuel economy as a function of time and/or distance? Use only 3 oz/16 gal for your first tank. (Remember, even if you only need 10 gallons to fill up, you should use 3 ounces of acetone. Your vented tank holds 16 gallons.)

This is a fun experiment and it is helping me be more fuel efficient. For those of you who report a benefit, I believe you. For those of you who see no benefit, I believe you, too.

I am an analytical chemist that develops methods of analysis for pollutants. One of my first products (15 years ago) was a test for gas/diesel in soil. You can read about it here:

PETRO RISc

I have proposed this "outgas" theory to help explain the varying observations. I’ll be glad to answer any questions if I can.

‘Take care,
Wonko

 

[nicklockard]

Wonko, the boiling point of neat Acetone is 56.3 C. How warm does the tank get on a long drive? I know the fuel returning to the tank is at ~80C, but it's volume flow rate relative to the tank's contents is small (has a low thermal loading), and the tank is constantly cooled by air passing by through the underbody. Neat acetone does have a high vapor pressure though.

Can you record and/or log tank temperatures with a hand held digital thermocouple or another suitable measuring method for us?

Anyhow, Brian (Jetpuf here on the club) is helping me tomorrow to test this on the dyno. We have the dosing and experimental plans ready. He's picking up a Mityvac tomorrow at Harbor Freight, and I'm going to fashion fuel line extensions.

PS: cool assay, Wonko.

 

[b0gman]

I am a microbiologist and we use acetone in lab to clean chemical residue out of equipement and to remove water in a few tests... Though its boiling point is I believe 55-57 depending on purity ( different manufacturers have different quality control tolerences) however it will go very quickly from liquid to gas at room temp put 200mL in a glass and come back in an hour most of it wont be there. There are very few things that it disolves in comletely(cyclohexane of top of head) so it like CO2 in soda is merely suspended in mixture so given enough time it will come out of solution in gas form eg open bottle of coke. This explains the higher initial milage I get in the first few days following addition of the acetone.

 

[wny_pat]

I am an analytical chemist that develops methods of analysis for pollutants. One of my first products (15 years ago) was a test for gas/diesel in soil.

Wonko,
Hope you were paid good money for developing it. But you wasted your time because all you had to do is find a old time tanker yanker who delivered gas and fuel. They can take you to each spot where there is a large amount of gas or oil soaked into the ground. They know all the contaminated spots by heart even if they did not contaminate them, because they have heard all the stories from other drivers! Don't ask me how I know this!

 

[jackbombay]

Can you record and/or log tank temperatures with a hand held digital thermocouple or another suitable measuring method for us?

You can check fuel temp with VAG-com, it gets into the mid 70s C during mild weather on a long drive. I have a 4 hour drive coming up on Saturday, I'll double check that number then.

 

[ofhs93]

Windspeed vector relative to the flight characteristics of an African or a European Swallow?

This question means ABDOLUTELY NOTHING without knowing wether or not they are fully laden or empty.

PS: I filled up last night and started off with a conservative dosage of 1oz in the tank. I'll work from there. Hopefully Nick will have some interesting news for us this evening

 

[nicklockard]

You can check fuel temp with VAG-com, it gets into the mid 70s C during mild weather on a long drive. I have a 4 hour drive coming up on Saturday, I'll double check that number then.

Mark, that doesn't tell you the temperature of the fuel in the tank. It tells you the temperature of the fuel at the sensor (dunno where it is...IP??)

Anyhow, that temperature is not reflective of what the tank's temperature is, since it has a much larger thermal mass and is constantly cooled when the car is in motion.

 

[nicklockard]

This question means ABDOLUTELY NOTHING without knowing wether or not they are fully laden or empty.

Are you suggesting that a little Swallow can carry a coconut over the bloody oceans?

 

[jackbombay]

Mark, that doesn't tell you the temperature of the fuel in the tank. It tells you the temperature of the fuel at the sensor (dunno where it is...IP??)

Anyhow, that temperature is not reflective of what the tank's temperature is, since it has a much larger thermal mass and is constantly cooled when the car is in motion.

After a long drive I think its all reached equilibrium though. That temp is from the fuel coming into the IP.

 

[Mike_M]

Mark, that's one thing I hate about Wyoming: it's all uphill and against the wind!

...uphill both ways, right?

 

[Mike_M]

Are you suggesting that a little Swallow can carry a coconut over the bloody oceans?

Uhh....er...I don't know. *screams fade as the speaker is ejected from the bridge*

 

[nicklockard]

No, Wyoming is uphill every which way

Well I don't have my Vag-com geek handy (Brian, aka JetPuf), but he says we can report preliminarily that fuel consumption on both the control run and sample run was 4.2-4.4 L/hour by vag-com under static loading conditions (kept at 97 Km/hour in fifth gear with cruise control on this dyno...)

[/IMG]

Dosing was 0.16 Oz Acetone/gallon of fuel. Acetone was reagent-grade (Mallindkrodt), 98.5% purity. Fuel was Astro #2 diesel (cheapest fuel around) obtained a week ago.

Brian logged fuel temp, IAT, coolant temp, and a buncha other stuff. I'll get him to download the text files since I'm a vag-com dummy. I'll then export the text files to Excel and report the numbers back to you.

 

[nicklockard]

After a long drive I think its all reached equilibrium though. That temp is from the fuel coming into the IP.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't know where the sensor was in relation to the fuel system.

 

[ofhs93]

Oh Nick...you tease us SOOOOO. You must report back the findings asap.

 

[nicklockard]

Progress report:

Okay, I am still performing data analysis. There was a fuel leak from the IP return at the banjo fitting (rather vigorous at that) at the end of the first run which pretty much ruined the physical measurement of fuel via graduated cylinder readings. With the amount of vibration present while the engine ran on the dyno however, I'm not sure how accurate that data would have been anyway. It's probably a blessing in disguise that it was lost--as it may have mislead us anyway.

Now the good news is Brian (JetPuf) logged a ton of vag-com data: fuel temp, coolant temp, IAT, fuel consumption, RPM's, speed--and all are time-stamped by the computer. Since the dyno ensured constant loading, I am hopeful that a valid relative comparison can be drawn, once I normalize the data. Normalization puts the data on an equal footing, relative to the thermodynamic importances of engine temperature, fuel temperature, and IAT.

I'm going to get help from some of our engineers like GoFaster, Ernie, and TdiMeister on how to best normalize the data.

With non-normalized raw data no meaningful comparisons can be drawn--it's utterly inconclusive. At this point all the non-normalized data proves is that engine efficiency is STRONGLY correlated to coolant temperatures, and less strongly correlated to fuel and IAT temperatures. The heat-soaking treatment proved much harder in reality, simply because the largest graduated cylinder I had was a one-liter one. Most of the fuel was consumed in bringing engine coolant temperature back up during the first run! Also it took longer than expected to swap lines and not have leaks (lesson learned: screw-type hose clamps pinch and generally suck, and so do zip-ties for small lines )

I'll get this dyno test data ready as soon as I can--will be done in a few more days.

Also, Brian (JetPuf) and I have thought out a more robust road test using 1 gallon containers and measuring the fuel consumed after the runs are complete (in the lab) and using vag-com to record data. We think it will be confirmatory to whatever we find out from this data set.


What might be a good idea is if a few of you who have vag-com would perform the test on the road identically to what Brian proposes--he's going to post on that soon.

Edit: new additions.

 

[BleachedBora]

You forgot I was there too!
Well...I wasn't much more than a cheerleader--and a very unattractive one at that.

Although some real cheerleaders might have been fun...

 

[JetPuf]

i really want to reply with some sexual innuendo, but I'll keep it to myself.

 

[JetPuf]

okay, so nick's wanting me to roll out this testing idea.

The test would make use of "actual" fuel consumed by measuring the starting level of fuel in a container, and the ending level. vag-com logging during the test, and a stop watch.

Pick a stretch of freeway that is pretty consistant and you can travel a couple passes of.

-drive to your pre-determined turn around point making sure the vehicle is at full operating temperature.
-shut off the car
-switch the IP to pull and return to your external fuel source
-start car

when you start logging using vagcom start the stop watch. this will allow you a specific time frame (vagcom doesnt do this too well). also mark on the container you're taking fuel from now with the starting level for the test.

-drive to your next turn around point.
-re connect the tank fuel connections.

drive back to your first turn around point

connect sample container 2

repeat the process.

this should yield a pretty good test using real world roads. I'll work it out better tomorrow, it's late and I wanted to get this posted.

Note to aaron, thanks