Does Acetone Addition to Fuel Lower Consumption?

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Beetlebat

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So, what's the risk to the fuel system if acetone is added in these quanties?
 

jackbombay

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I am between a 1/2 and 5/8ths of a tank and have 390 on the odo, this includes 2 trips over a STEEP long mountian pass, 3 miles of %10 grade oth sides, several trips to the ski hill, 2000 ft elevation gain in 6 miles and 160 miles of hilly 2 lane highway at 70-75 indicate MPH, plus a fair bit of around town mileage, all on winter fuel in temps ranging from well beolw zero* F to about 14*above. I'd guess that this tank is in the upper 40's, close to 50 right now. More than I normally get under these driving/weather conditions. And No, I have not been driving slower than I normally do, I haul all over the place :D
 

nicklockard

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Sorry guys, no chance to test b.p. depression yet. We've relocated our labs and it's taking forever to get hoods installed...and we're putting out fires for production.
 

daBooj

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I mentioned in one of the other acetone threads that I will have a tensiometer in my labs soon. I have it now, but it's not quite together yet. As soon as it is, I will be testing the surface tension of fuel with and without acetone as part of my getting familiar with the instrument stuff.

I recently made a small batch of bio, I'll test it as well.
 

JettaJake

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Data at last!

Excellent!! (à la Mr. Burns) :)

Good bet that a new thread devoted to your results will show some serious page-view numbers. Also suspect we can look forward to a lively debate :D
 

jackbombay

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I've run a few tanks with acetone and a tank the last 2 days without, I think it helps. Cruise set on an indicated 85 MPH across Idaho in temps ranging from 30 to 60* F and I got 45 MPG average, 47 to Boise and 43 from Boise, 45 average. This was on winter fuel, my car has never done that good at those speeds on winter fuel, those are summer fuel numbers. I drove to Steamboat and back with no acetone and averaged 41, but I was driving a little faster (~90 MPH indicated), and there were more hills/mountains to steamboat than to boise. I've had the car for 3 years and 70,000 miles now and am fairly good at guessing what the MPG will be based on how I am driving, the acetone tanks all came out higher than I would have guessed.

Yes, they were all vented tanks filled to the tippy top.
 

42MPG

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I did one tank using acetone, and two with PS and saw no difference. Drive 160 mi per day 85% highway at 80 mph with a DSG and get a 40mpg average. Have 6K on the car. Like to see daBooj's test results also.
 

JettaJake

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guess again?

were you able to note the direction of the prevailing winds? any idea of the avg wind speeds during your runs? did you check tire pressure prior to each run? after? did you fill with the same brand of fuel for each run? cargo weight remain same? etc, etc, etc.... --> marginally meaningful data
jackbombay said:
I've run a few tanks with acetone and a tank the last 2 days without, I think it hel [SNIP] irly good at guessing what the MPG will be based on how I am driving, the acetone tanks all came out higher than I would have guessed.

Yes, they were all vented tanks filled to the tippy top.
 

jackbombay

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Winds were low to none for all the trips, I had an extra 200 pounds for the trip to steamboat compared to the trip to Boise. Tire pressure was the same for both trips, 38 up front and 36 in the rear. Most all the fuel was purcahsed from the Cheveron where I buy almost all my fuel from.


I can tell that you will never be satisified by any evidence provided by anyone on this subject as 2 runs can never be identical as during any "secnd run" (be it with or without Acetone) the car would have more miles on the clock which means it would be more broken in or more worn out, etc...
 

JettaJake

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Your evidence is good and, I am sure, accurately reported, too, just pointing out it still gets filed under anecdotal. ;) I hope you will continue taking and reporting data.

JJ

jackbombay said:
Winds were low to ......... my fuel from.

I can tell that you will never be satisified by any evidence provided by anyone on this subject as 2 runs can never be identical as during any "secnd run" (be it with or without Acetone) the car would have more miles on the clock which means it would be more broken in or more worn out, etc...
 

jackbombay

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JettaJake said:
Your evidence is good and, I am sure, accurately reported, too, just pointing out it still gets filed under anecdotal. ;) I hope you will continue taking and reporting data.

JJ
I know where you're coming from, unfortunately there is no way to completely isolate the Acetone variable. Anecdotal is as good as we are going to get unfortunately. I wish I could have two identical TDIs to run tests like this with, plus I'd then have 2 TDIs instead of one :D I'm going to keep running Acetone off and on and report back periodically.
 

djmeier1

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Earlier this month Nick Lockard offered to donate the first $40.00 toward obtaining some credible test results on a dyno. Virtually no one reacted with an offer of additional contribution. As I recall, Nick was going to check into a discount at the new dyno shop. This was the best direction that we could go on this, if we really want something better than anecdotal evidence. I'll match Nick's $40.00 or will contribute any reasonable share of the real cost of the research. I'd like to encourage all participants in this thread to make a similar commitment.
 

JettaJake

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Nicklo's gracious offer was noted but I think the money would be better spent as a grant/incentive/reward to club member daBooj who has offered to generate some data in the laboratory. Much simpler to 'completely isolate the acetone effect' in the lab than in any TDI rolling on the road or on a dyno. I've got an extra ten-spot. :)
 

djmeier1

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acetone and fuel efficiency

I also appreciate the lab testing that may answer the question of whether acetone has an impact on surface tension. But, once amswered, where does this inquiry then turn. Will you presume that a lower surface tension will result in lower fuel consumption? I don't think that conclusion will pass the skeptics here...do you, Jetta Jake?

There is too much anecdotal evidence out there now to the effect that the stuff reduces consumption. The result of the surface tension testing will be welcome information, but won't do much to resolve the underlying issue. We need to know whether the added mileage claims can be demonstrated in an objective, scientific manner. I can't think of a better way than to proceed with the test proposed on the dyno. We should ultimately want this proof anyway. And, this process might as well be commenced simultaneous with the surface tension testing.

I still stand ready to contribute something to the dyno costs. Dave.
 

nicklockard

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JettaJake said:
Nicklo's gracious offer was noted but I think the money would be better spent as a grant/incentive/reward to club member daBooj who has offered to generate some data in the laboratory. Much simpler to 'completely isolate the acetone effect' in the lab than in any TDI rolling on the road or on a dyno. I've got an extra ten-spot. :)
I agree with Dave. Surface tension can not be correlated to fuel economy(edit--to my knowledge.) Surface tension and b.p. depression are useful data to have, but neither can be correlated to fuel economy inside a diesel engine(?) The dyno test (as proposed previously) against a control sample and measuring fuel consumption with a graduated cylinder will be more definitive (elucidate causation rather than correlation.)

I can still try and do b.p. depression. I'll do it after hours in test tubes in a heating block. We're finally settling down here now that the hoods are installed.

My edits in italics.
 
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djmeier1

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acetone

Nick, could you take the time to make inquiry about dyno charges? It would be nice for all to have a good idea of the cost. Perhaps that would lead to a little broader showing of support. Seems like we are presently at about $90.00. Thanks, Dave.
 

JettaJake

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If the tensiometer data come to show a measurable reduction in surface tension, I would have see that as a strong piece of evidence supporting the reduced fuel consumption hypothesis. Will it convince all skeptics? Not likely. They will just want more data :p (including dyno runs :) ). I do hope the dyno tests move forward and that meaningful data can be garnered.

As far spotting any effect, my money is still on the lab tests. ;)
 

nicklockard

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djmeier1 said:
Nick, could you take the time to make inquiry about dyno charges? It would be nice for all to have a good idea of the cost. Perhaps that would lead to a little broader showing of support. Seems like we are presently at about $90.00. Thanks, Dave.
Sure Dave. I'm teaching a bioD class this weekend but I'll call around Monday. **ties string on finger**

JJ, surface tension...has that been proven to be a causative agent in fuel economy differences? I'm not familiar enough with fuels chemistry.


Edit note: Dave and all dyno interested parties...I found a great opportunity here in this thread to dyno (2 runs for $40, a steal.) It is local to me so I'll probably do this.

I can borrow a graduated cylinder from work. I'll prepare the sample and standards in the lab ahead of time. I will need the use of a Mityvac to purge and fill the fuel pump though, which I do not own. If anyone is willing to lend one that would be great. Otherwise, would you still be willing to chip in for its purchase? It will get well used at GTG's I host after that, or I could send it to you when the test is finished.

Let me know before April 15th, the dyno day.
 
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djmeier1

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acetone

Surface tension is seen to be one of the key variables ...at least in gasolene fuels. But, I can't quite remember whether reduced surface tension is saught after. I seem to recall that the EPA did not favor reduced surface tension because of the heightened effect on air contamination through evaporation. If I'm right on that, it might explain why, if acetone works, it has not been adopted by the fuel providers.
 

JettaJake

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I'm hoping to get a better clue with some data. :)

I'm not a stranger to the field, but combustion is not my specialty either though as a portion of my graduate thesis, I did publish some fundamental combustion research in J Heat Transfer in a paper titled Exciplex Fluorescence Thermometry of Falling Hexadecane Droplets :eek: :p We used a Nd-YAG laser to slice ~250nm droplets as they fell thru a stack of 3 quartz cuvettes in a flowing nitrogen atmosphere. The calibration work took >80% of the effort as I recall :mad: ;)

Hexadecane is often chosen as a representative fuel and using it removes one of the variabies you would have to contend with using actual fuel blends....

I've also done some serious surface tension work (and was actually getting paid a living wage for it, too! :) ) whereby we tested the wetting characteristics of different evaporative die lubricants on Boehmited aluminum fin coil stacks.
nicklockard said:
JJ, surface tension...has that been proven to be a causative agent in fuel economy differences? I'm not familiar enough with fuels chemistry.
 
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djmeier1

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Nick, I have the mighty Vac, but would just have to replace it and would rather just contribute. You will find additional expense in getting to a reliable answer..and anything less is a waste of money. I will be willing to provide up to $100.00 as a fairly computed proportion of the appropriate cost. Let me know what and how to transmit. Dave.
 

djmeier1

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I drive 600+ miles per week, 450 of which are spent on the same weekly round trip. I have decided to add acetone for a few tanks at a ratio of 800/1 to see, in a very unscientific manner, what happens. No one has arrived at that ratio as necessarily the most effective ratio, sop I might vary from that in tanks subsequent to the first three. The results of this trial will not cause a change in my commitment to cost share. Dave.
 

cujet

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Years ago I got to play with a lab quality knock engine. It was designed to test fuels. The electrical output of this single cylinder engine was tied to octane, compression ratio (adjustable), ign timing (also adjustable) and throttle/mixture variations.

We tried every combination of fuel we could dream up. Acetone was (even back then) touted as an octane, MPG and power booster. From what I could tell, no fuel made more power than standard gasoline. And no fuel had better part throttle output than pump gasoline. There was not significant difference between 87 and 93 octane. Some race fuels made less power in this engine. However the knock resistance was quite high.

Diesel type fuels were a problem as the engine would not run well on them.

Certainly back then, acetone was not a "cure all".

Chris
 

wny_pat

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Was driving up I79 in the Pittsburgh, Pa. area yesterday, listening to one of the Car Talk Show programs. The host brought up this same topic of mixing Acetone with diesel. Said he got a e-mail from one of his listeners asking him about the benefits and harms. This guy had one comment = "Don't even think of going there"! That was exactly what this car show host/master mechanic said. About all he really said about the harms of acetone was that it eats paint and other coatings off metals. He did say that this has been totted as a mpg thing in the past and that it was to dangerous to mess with. He also said don't get any on the finish or clearcoat of your car. Just a innocent bystander who figured one of you guys must have e-mailed him.
 

djmeier1

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HailTDI said:
We'll see. I just added 2 oz. of acetone on a full tank. I have used it in the past on a gasoline powered vehicle, receiving mixed results. I will keep accurate tabs on this experiment.
HailTDI, what ever happened with regard to your January trial of a tank full with acetone. Should we just assume that the results were less than compelling??? Dave.
 

djmeier1

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cujet said:
Years ago I got to play with a lab quality knock engine. It was designed to test fuels. The electrical output of this single cylinder engine was tied to octane, compression ratio (adjustable), ign timing (also adjustable) and throttle/mixture variations.

We tried every combination of fuel we could dream up. Acetone was (even back then) touted as an octane, MPG and power booster. From what I could tell, no fuel made more power than standard gasoline. And no fuel had better part throttle output than pump gasoline. There was not significant difference between 87 and 93 octane. Some race fuels made less power in this engine. However the knock resistance was quite high.

Diesel type fuels were a problem as the engine would not run well on them.

Certainly back then, acetone was not a "cure all".

Chris
Chris, it sounds like the study that we are talking about doing was done some years back...and with negative results! Would it be possible to obtain a copy of the results and/or conclusions? Perhaps it would put our questions to rest. Dave.
 

jackbombay

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djmeier1 said:
Chris, it sounds like the study that we are talking about doing was done some years back...and with negative results! Would it be possible to obtain a copy of the results and/or conclusions? Perhaps it would put our questions to rest. Dave.
Because why? Gas and Diesel are the same? And the engines that run these fuels are the same? How exactly are those results relevant to our cars in any way? None?
 

djmeier1

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Well, it seems to me that the claims to better mileage are made almost exclusively with regard to gasolene powered vehicles, with diesel applicability added as an "also ran" (Check the article referenced at the head of this thread). That being the case, a proven failure of benefit from acetone additive in a gasolene engine would be, while not necessarily conclusive, at least somewhat compelling. Don't you agree?

There is an old maxim that, stated in Latin says "Falso in Uno, Falso in Omnibus". It may have some applicability here...at least to me...in the event that good science has shown the stuff ineffective in gassers.

Dave.

jackbombay said:
Because why? Gas and Diesel are the same? And the engines that run these fuels are the same? How exactly are those results relevant to our cars in any way? None?
 
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