Direct Injection Retrofit

suprant0010

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Hey guys, I'm new to the forum. I'm seeking some information for a very unique and complicated project I'm working on. I need to adapt some form of direct injection into said project, and I'm looking into using VW parts. I was wondering if you guys could steer me in the right direction.

The problem is don't know which engine or type of DI system I should be working with. Ideally, I'd like to use a system I can tune with an aftermarket standalone system. The last resort being an old school mechanical injection.

The first issue is the which injectors to go with, as I understand they generally use a high voltage (60v) peak and hold system to drive them. This makes most ecus unusable as far as I understand, aside from some newer ones with expensive DI drivers. So my first question is are there any direct injectors, whether they be piezo or solenoid or anything else, that can run off a standard port injection driver?

Next I need an injection pump, most seem to be cam lobe or gear driven. I need one that generates a constant pressure, not like the newer Bosch pumps that require a pressure solenoid controlled by the ecu to function. Does any VW engine have one like this?

As for plan B, which older VW engine would have simplest mechanical injection system, that would be the least trouble to adapt to another application?

Thanks for any info you guys can offer
 

Mozambiquer

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The Volkswagen Diesel engines had several different types of systems, first being the old indirect mechanical injection, then the first TDI engines used a Bosch rotary pump, and were electrically controlled mechanical, that would be the 1Z, AHU and ALH. Then they changed to the Pumpe Deuse or PD TDI engines, they have unit injectors driven off the camshaft, they would probably be pretty difficult to adapt to any other application.
Those were the BEW, BHW and BRM, though there was also the V10 TDI which was also the PD setup.
Then in 2009 they went to common rail. They use a Bosch high pressure pump, controlled by the ecu and solenoid or piezo injectors. There was the 3.0 v6 or 2.0 l4

What's your project? Obviously each one has its own pros and cons, and I wouldn't know which would work for you, without knowing a bit more what you're needing.

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Mozambiquer

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How many cylinder engine are you doing?

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ticaf

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I'm building a prototype engine, the design can only function with direct injection.
Sorry, still very vague what you are trying to do. Do you want to modify a VW engine? Or are you trying to retrofit CR diesel injection into some other engine? Or are you building an engine from scratch?

I imagine your best bet would be to contact a diesel injection parts manufacturer like Bosch, and get their datasheets on their injectors and pumps.
 

suprant0010

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I'm building it from scratch, rotary engine with 4 chambers, 1 injector each, no cams. Eventually everything will be purpose built for this engine, but I'm using parts from other engines for this first prototype.

I'm familiar with the Pumpe Deuse, I own one and have torn the the head apart on one occasion and studied it. Yes, cam driven unit injectors would be a no go as there are no cams in this application. I intend on running the pump off the output shaft of the engine.

I'm not familiar with "indirect" injection, is that similar to how the older American trucks work with nozzles fed by the pump rather than injectors?

My top priority is simplicity, I want a direct injection system that is layed out like port injection. Constant pressure to all the injectors, and a simple pulse from the ecu to fire the injectors. It seems that all these DI systems are more complex than just that. It looks like the newer piezo injectors are the closest to meeting my goals, aside from needing special standalone ecu to run them.
 

ticaf

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wow, quite an ambitious project! what will be the application ?

I imagine you'll have only one rotor, and one injector. you might want to look at single cylinder diesel engines and see what they use (usually simple mechanical stuff). that would be the simplest.

as far as using a VW ECU by itself, it might be near impossible.
 

ticaf

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sorry, I see you say 4 chambers, and 4 injectors.

you could start by using a LUCAS type injection pump, all mechanical with 4 injection ports. It is old school, but should be the easiest to implement.

otherwise, you will have to design your own ECU, or get a tuner (KERMA?) to program one for you. In that case, you could use a VW set up (really it is a Bosch set up).
 

suprant0010

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wow, quite an ambitious project! what will be the application ?
I imagine you'll have only one rotor, and one injector. you might want to look at single cylinder diesel engines and see what they use (usually simple mechanical stuff). that would be the simplest.
as far as using a VW ECU by itself, it might be near impossible.
The application is up in the air atm, strictly based on how it performs and what it's good at after testing. I expect it will be useful as a high torque, high efficiency truck engine.

The problem I'd run into with that is needing 4 separate fuel systems. It has a 4 chambers, so using a 4 cylinder injection system is ideal.
 

suprant0010

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sorry, I see you say 4 chambers, and 4 injectors.
you could start by using a LUCAS type injection pump, all mechanical with 4 injection ports. It is old school, but should be the easiest to implement.
otherwise, you will have to design your own ECU, or get a tuner (KERMA?) to program one for you. In that case, you could use a VW set up (really it is a Bosch set up).
Having one custom made is the end game, for now I just want to use something readily available before pouring tons of money into engineering something like that.

I've been looking at the Link G4 for gdi as an option. It gives me the option to run spark plugs, which I may or may not need.
 

Mozambiquer

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I'm building it from scratch, rotary engine with 4 chambers, 1 injector each, no cams. Eventually everything will be purpose built for this engine, but I'm using parts from other engines for this first prototype.



I'm familiar with the Pumpe Deuse, I own one and have torn the the head apart on one occasion and studied it. Yes, cam driven unit injectors would be a no go as there are no cams in this application. I intend on running the pump off the output shaft of the engine.



I'm not familiar with "indirect" injection, is that similar to how the older American trucks work with nozzles fed by the pump rather than injectors?



My top priority is simplicity, I want a direct injection system that is layed out like port injection. Constant pressure to all the injectors, and a simple pulse from the ecu to fire the injectors. It seems that all these DI systems are more complex than just that. It looks like the newer piezo injectors are the closest to meeting my goals, aside from needing special standalone ecu to run them.
Indirect injection involves fuel being injected into a "prechamber" which then goes into the main cylinder. It's the old school way of doing it, but it was phased out with the Advent of direct injection. Yes, the old American diesels used that technology, the old Ford and Chevrolet, as well as Volkswagen, Mercedes, Isuzu, Mitsubishi... As far as I know, the last vehicle manufacturer in the USA to use that was the Chevrolet 6.5 Diesel.

Anyway, your project sounds kinda cool! I'd love to see how it turns out! I've always wanted to play around like that.
If you're wanting to start off simple, I'd go with Bosch DI injectors, like what's used in the 1996-2003 Volkswagen TDI, and use some kind of a m-tdi pump, which could be a land Rover pump, or probably even a pump from one of the foreign direct injected engines, like an Isuzu 2.5 or 2.8 since they could be controlled by a manual cable. There's also ways to convert the alh or ahu injector pump to manual.
Then if you go into further production, a common rail with solenoid or piezo injectors and an ecu designed for your application would probably be the best way, since that would give you a lot more fine control over the fuel injection.

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Mozambiquer

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Just thinking, if you were able to set up a Bosch cp3 high pressure fuel pump, and piezo or solenoid injectors, you could maybe build an injector driver module using the idm from something like a Ford 6.0, maybe use pieces from it, like the injector drivers... You can get one of those easily and cheaply.

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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I think a more clearly defined question may be helpful here.

Are you wanting this Wankel-type engine to be spark ignited or compression ignited? And how is the intake air charge being handled?

I believe Rolls-Royce tried some Wankel Diesel engine prototypes decades ago, and concluded there were just not feasible... but that may have been largely limited by the technology of the day. Doesn't mean it could not be done today. However, while the [control side] technology has certainly improved exponentially, the requirements and expectations have also changed dramatically. With today's tech, we perhaps could design and build a compression-ignited Wankel engine that could meet the emissions requirements from 1970. But it would be a painfully filthy dirty engine by today's standards, and would require so much more emissions compliance nonsense piled on top of it that it would not be worth the effort.

A gasoline DI system is not all that different from a port injected EFI system, the only main difference is the operating pressure is higher, which requires (on all the applications I know of) a second fuel pump, a mechanically-driven electronic-controlled one, mounted directly on the engine somewhere. These are typically driven off of the same drive that turns the camshaft(s). Since the Wankel has no camshafts, it would just be run off the engine's main shaft directly (well, it would be gear reduced down for proper RPM). Or, you could simply use a "camshaft" that is more akin to an aircraft type radial engine that spins, in which the cams are just a bunch of bumps on a giant ring. I still think the RPM would be wrong, even if you had one bump on a ring around the engine shaft, it would still maybe be too much, but I suppose a really short stroke pump could be utilized.
 

turbobrick240

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Cool idea, but sounds like a nightmare to develope and produce. Mazda, NSU, Rolls Royce, GM, John Deere and many others have spent millions and had large teams of brilliant engineers try to develope reliable Paschke/Wankel rotaries without great success- well mazda had moderate success. Good luck though.
 

suprant0010

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I think a more clearly defined question may be helpful here.
Are you wanting this Wankel-type engine to be spark ignited or compression ignited? And how is the intake air charge being handled?
I believe Rolls-Royce tried some Wankel Diesel engine prototypes decades ago, and concluded there were just not feasible... but that may have been largely limited by the technology of the day. Doesn't mean it could not be done today. However, while the [control side] technology has certainly improved exponentially, the requirements and expectations have also changed dramatically. With today's tech, we perhaps could design and build a compression-ignited Wankel engine that could meet the emissions requirements from 1970. But it would be a painfully filthy dirty engine by today's standards, and would require so much more emissions compliance nonsense piled on top of it that it would not be worth the effort.
A gasoline DI system is not all that different from a port injected EFI system, the only main difference is the operating pressure is higher, which requires (on all the applications I know of) a second fuel pump, a mechanically-driven electronic-controlled one, mounted directly on the engine somewhere. These are typically driven off of the same drive that turns the camshaft(s). Since the Wankel has no camshafts, it would just be run off the engine's main shaft directly (well, it would be gear reduced down for proper RPM). Or, you could simply use a "camshaft" that is more akin to an aircraft type radial engine that spins, in which the cams are just a bunch of bumps on a giant ring. I still think the RPM would be wrong, even if you had one bump on a ring around the engine shaft, it would still maybe be too much, but I suppose a really short stroke pump could be utilized.
The answer to that question, it's likely both spark and compression ignition. On another prototype I built years ago, one issue I ran into when attempting cold startup. I was using port injection with poor atomization, even with glow plugs, I had to preheat the engine to get it to fire. For the crude purpose of this initial prototype, having a spark at startup would make things easier.

Every Wankel engine is a rotary, but not every rotary engine is a Wankel ;). What I'm building is nothing like a Wankel.

I was under the impression that the gasoline DI engines had the secondary pump as well.

Just thinking, if you were able to set up a Bosch cp3 high pressure fuel pump, and piezo or solenoid injectors, you could maybe build an injector driver module using the idm from something like a Ford 6.0, maybe use pieces from it, like the injector drivers... You can get one of those easily and cheaply.
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This is what was thinking, if I could somehow get a driver to open the piezo injectors, then I could run it with any standalone, like Megasquirt. Similar to some old school ecus requiring resister packs on peak and hold port injectors.

Cool idea, but sounds like a nightmare to develope and produce. Mazda, NSU, Rolls Royce, GM, John Deere and many others have spent millions and had large teams of brilliant engineers try to develope reliable Paschke/Wankel rotaries without great success- well mazda had moderate success. Good luck though.
I have reason to believe what I'm building has distinct advantages over what has been done already, and is worth pursuing.

I'm a machinist, and I have experience as a tuner. It's kind of the perfect project for someone like me. Steve Jobs started in his garage, so why not?
 
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ticaf

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So you are looking at a gasoline engine then, right?
Diesel injectors and pumps may need an additional lubricant in the gasoline, maybe 2stroke oil. Just saying...
 

GoFaster

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Gasoline direct injection systems and diesel direct injection systems may have conceptual similarities and may have similar block diagrams and schematics, but they have very different operational characteristics and the parts are very different. Do you need the gasoline version of a direct injection system, or do you need the diesel version?

The gasoline version has an injection pressure that is normally around 150 - 200 bar. The diesel version is 1800 - 2000 bar, so 10 times higher. These fuel injection systems have their internal mechanical parts lubricated by the fuel. Gasoline is a terrible lubricant, whereas diesel fuel is merely not very good.

The diesel injection systems have to be capable of atomising the relatively non-volatile diesel fuel against combustion pressure inside the cylinder ... hence the very high operating pressure. The gasoline systems normally complete the fuel injection during the compression stroke before ignition, and the compression ratio is lower, and the fuel has a lower viscosity and atomises easier. Hence ... doesn't need nearly as much pressure.

I have no knowledge of the voltage/current characteristics of any of these injectors. It stands to reason that the diesel versions require much more actuation force, since they are dealing with 10 times higher fuel pressure, but even the gasoline direct injectors have to deal with much higher fuel pressure than normal port injectors.
 

turbobrick240

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Every Wankel engine is a rotary, but not every rotary engine is a Wankel ;). What I'm building is nothing like a Wankel.
That's a great point. Most of today's pistonless rotary engines would more accurately be called Paschke type rotary designs. Does your idea generate compression with rotors or pistons?
 

Mozambiquer

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I did some digging around and found that Wankel has a multi fuel engine, they have an engine oil lubricated fuel pump so they can pump gasoline, Diesel, jet fuel, and whatever else they run on.
https://www.wankelsupertec.de/en_engine.html

I couldn't find any other information on them besides this one website.

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nicklockard

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I'd wager on a VP37 computer controlled pump head and injectors, if high pressure diesel fuel injection is what you're after. You've evaded answering or addressing the gasoline/diesel question directly, but since you're here on a diesel-dorky website, I'm betting your interests lie closer to running mainly compression ignition mode on (probably) ****ty, less distilled fuels(?)


Anywho it's understandable you wan to keep it close. I think the VP 37 is a good candidate becuase:

  • You can mount & drive it by the end of the main shaft--but clearly you'd need to machine custom internal cam profile for it
  • It has the pressure and timing control capability you want for CI
  • You didn't mention 2 stroke or 4 stroke, but with rotary, it's likely you'd need fewer rotations for effectively building power--so hopefully it meets your targets. This pump is roughly power limited around 2800 rpm's (1/2 engine rpm), I think. Would this be enough for your application?
  • It's pretty simple to understand and control (in theory)
  • But I don't know what truly stand-alone controllers you could use....however:
  • I think it's possible to make your own piggy-back controller to fool sensors in order to get the fuel quantity and timing you need(??)

I applaud the project.
 
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suprant0010

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Gasoline direct injection systems and diesel direct injection systems may have conceptual similarities and may have similar block diagrams and schematics, but they have very different operational characteristics and the parts are very different. Do you need the gasoline version of a direct injection system, or do you need the diesel version?

The gasoline version has an injection pressure that is normally around 150 - 200 bar. The diesel version is 1800 - 2000 bar, so 10 times higher. These fuel injection systems have their internal mechanical parts lubricated by the fuel. Gasoline is a terrible lubricant, whereas diesel fuel is merely not very good.

The diesel injection systems have to be capable of atomising the relatively non-volatile diesel fuel against combustion pressure inside the cylinder ... hence the very high operating pressure. The gasoline systems normally complete the fuel injection during the compression stroke before ignition, and the compression ratio is lower, and the fuel has a lower viscosity and atomises easier. Hence ... doesn't need nearly as much pressure.

I have no knowledge of the voltage/current characteristics of any of these injectors. It stands to reason that the diesel versions require much more actuation force, since they are dealing with 10 times higher fuel pressure, but even the gasoline direct injectors have to deal with much higher fuel pressure than normal port injectors.
Ideally the high pressure diesel system would be best, but I imagine it will present more challenges in getting it to work. I just need this thing to run well enough to test the basic theory of it all for now, I'm thinking I can get it to do so regardless of injection pressure.

That's a great point. Most of today's pistonless rotary engines would more accurately be called Paschke type rotary designs. Does your idea generate compression with rotors or pistons?
I call it a rotor for lack of a better word, it's definitely not a piston.


I'd wager on a VP37 computer controlled pump head and injectors, if high pressure diesel fuel injection is what you're after. You've evaded answering or addressing the gasoline/diesel question directly, but since you're here on a diesel-dorky website, I'm betting your interests lie closer to running mainly compression ignition mode on (probably) ****ty, less distilled fuels(?)
Anywho it's understandable you wan to keep it close. I think the VP 37 is a good candidate becuase:
  • You can mount & drive it by the end of the main shaft--but clearly you'd need to machine custom internal cam profile for it
  • It has the pressure and timing control capability you want for CI
  • You didn't mention 2 stroke or 4 stroke, but with rotary, it's likely you'd need fewer rotations for effectively building power--so hopefully it meets your targets. This pump is roughly power limited around 2800 rpm's (1/2 engine rpm), I think. Would this be enough for your application?
  • It's pretty simple to understand and control (in theory)
  • But I don't know what truly stand-alone controllers you could use....however:
  • I think it's possible to make your own piggy-back controller to fool sensors in order to get the fuel quantity and timing you need(??)
Multi-fuel capabilities are the end game, so I intend on experimenting with both at some point. Sorry for my vagueness, I'm hesitant to disclose design details

That pump seems promising, it sounds similar to that of the VP44 from the old Cummins I used to have.

My question is.... is the fuel timing controlled 100% electronically or is the ecu just making adjustments to the timing already in place by the cam drive?

If I have to go through the trouble of building a cam for the pump perfectly synced to the engine position, I may as well avoid the unneeded complexity of making an ecu work with it and just use a fully mechanical pump.
 

nicklockard

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Ideally the high pressure diesel system would be best, but I imagine it will present more challenges in getting it to work. I just need this thing to run well enough to test the basic theory of it all for now, I'm thinking I can get it to do so regardless of injection pressure.



I call it a rotor for lack of a better word, it's definitely not a piston.




Multi-fuel capabilities are the end game, so I intend on experimenting with both at some point. Sorry for my vagueness, I'm hesitant to disclose design details

That pump seems promising, it sounds similar to that of the VP44 from the old Cummins I used to have.

My question is.... is the fuel timing controlled 100% electronically or is the ecu just making adjustments to the timing already in place by the cam drive?

If I have to go through the trouble of building a cam for the pump perfectly synced to the engine position, I may as well avoid the unneeded complexity of making an ecu work with it and just use a fully mechanical pump.
Pump's cam profile & starting position (how you index it relative to the cylinders) sets the 'gross' timing and sequence of course. It build high pressure by imposing a stroke motion on the tops of the cam (base pressure). The ECU controlled QA collar either dumps pressure to relief side (low side) or doesn't let it dump pressure which creates the fine timing control and @ what pressure. The 'what pressure at what rpm' question is controlled by the base cam profile and what you choose as the nominal QA base value, I think; but honestly I'm out of my depth at this point.

It should also be mentioned that the individual high pressure lines out to injectors act like ram-pulse pressure rails (i.e. they're not just dump pipes, but you could consider tweaking their lengths/diameters for YOUR specific application)--is how I understand it. I'll stop because that's about all I *think* I understand, lol.

As regards your mechanical-vs-electric questions, I'd be in favor of pure mechanical if the expected useful operational range (RPM band) is fairly small, say less than 1800-ish rpm span), but if you value really dynamic torque response at a wide range, go for electric. If it were my first prototype, I'd start with mechanical until I could rope in a partner for the tuning wizardry.

ADDED: there's no 'direct fit' HPFP that gives you the flexibility and delivery & precise timing you want that is NOT common rail. But common rail is going to involve a LOT of sensor integration along with smart tuning (I think...outa my depth again). VP has the advantage of being easy to understand & control.

PS: I have no idea how I intuitively knew you were going for multi-fuel, but I'm pretty sure I know the applications, marketing plan, SKU segmentation plans you're dreaming of too, so I'll shut the he|| up :D
 
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turbobrick240

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I'm thinking a small rotary could be good as an APU or range extender for a hybrid electric truck. I believe Mazda is looking into resurrecting the rotary for range extension in EV's. An interesting sidenote- Frank Obrist, an Austrian engineer who worked on rotary development with Wankel chose to go with a piston design in his recent range extension powerplant.
 

suprant0010

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Pump's cam profile & starting position (how you index it relative to the cylinders) sets the 'gross' timing and sequence of course. It build high pressure by imposing a stroke motion on the tops of the cam (base pressure). The ECU controlled QA collar either dumps pressure to relief side (low side) or doesn't let it dump pressure which creates the fine timing control and @ what pressure. The 'what pressure at what rpm' question is controlled by the base cam profile and what you choose as the nominal QA base value, I think; but honestly I'm out of my depth at this point.

It should also be mentioned that the individual high pressure lines out to injectors act like ram-pulse pressure rails (i.e. they're not just dump pipes, but you could consider tweaking their lengths/diameters for YOUR specific application)--is how I understand it. I'll stop because that's about all I *think* I understand, lol.

As regards your mechanical-vs-electric questions, I'd be in favor of pure mechanical if the expected useful operational range (RPM band) is fairly small, say less than 1800-ish rpm span), but if you value really dynamic torque response at a wide range, go for electric. If it were my first prototype, I'd start with mechanical until I could rope in a partner for the tuning wizardry.

ADDED: there's no 'direct fit' HPFP that gives you the flexibility and delivery & precise timing you want that is NOT common rail. But common rail is going to involve a LOT of sensor integration along with smart tuning (I think...outa my depth again). VP has the advantage of being easy to understand & control.

PS: I have no idea how I intuitively knew you were going for multi-fuel, but I'm pretty sure I know the applications, marketing plan, SKU segmentation plans you're dreaming of too, so I'll shut the he|| up :D
If I can get this thing to just start and idle, maybe throttle up slightly, I would consider this model a success. Things would really take off from that point.

After a bit more research, I think I've found a viable solution. Single cylinder diesel engines have cam driven pumps that might allow for the simplicity I need. I can have 1 for each chamber, each having its own cam lobe. Basically the same thing a 4 cylinder pump would do, but I can now adjust the cam timing of each injector separately.
 

nicklockard

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Well if there's any way you can share progress pics without giving away too much please do.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Interesting to see anyone doing anything with an internal combustion engine, as all the major manufacturers seem to have stopped any further development. Which I think they probably should have stopped a while ago, to be honest. :(
 
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