Difficulty with timing belt/water pump change

[Farmboy]

I think I've done my due diligence, reading the Bentley manual, reading the A4 TB change guide listed, researched the forums, etc. I waded into the 60k TB change on my wife's 2000 New Beetle TDi.

Still - even after solidly establishing my position as the person who will perform the longest timing belt change ever - I find myself facing a problem and an issue:

Problem: I can't remove water pump. I have the TB, cam sprocket, tensioner, idler, and 3 water pump bolts out. Can anyone tell me WHAT AM I MISSING?

Issue: I can't possibly see the timing marks on the flywheel. If you have a manual transmission do you just go ahead and remove the waterline (below the vacuum pump and containing 3 glow plugs) that's in the way (I did see that Mickey's TB change post from a couple of years ago indicated that he did just that), do you somehow bend light, or are you just able to take care of business without actually referencing the marks . . . Again, can someone tell me WHAT AM I MISSING?

Now to go back to beating my head against the garage floor.

Humble thanks in advance
Tom

 

[oldpoopie]

Did you take the airbox out so you can see more clearly to the flywheel mark? You should be able to see into the opening with a little trickery with a flashlight.

 

[MOGolf]

Maybe Deafbug, or others in your area, may be able to drop in and help you out. In the mean time...

If you've got the large idler out of the way and all three bolts for the pump out, then it is just a very strong pull to get the pump out. I suggest wearing face protection too since any coolant still in the block will come splashing out. There is an o-ring on it that seals the pump in there and makes a pretty good grip on it too.

As for the timing mark, no you shouldn't have to remove the water lines. You just have to get at the right angle and have good lighting. At this point, I assume you've locked the cam and removed the timing belt. It is possible that the crank moved during disassembly and the mark has moved outside the window. Use a long blade screwdriver and push the teeth of the flywheel to get the mark to TDC. Usually I have seen the mark rotate towards the front of the car at this point. So you'd be pushing the flywheel teeth towards the back of the car. Not much mind you. Certainly no more than the amount of the flywheel you can see in the opening. If you don't see it then, try going the other direction. Do this slowly. If you feel resistance (like a piston hitting a valve), stop and go back the other way.

 

[Farmboy]

oldpoopie - I must have missed the removal of the airbox in the directions. It doesn't seem to have the right angle to me, but I'll have to take another good look.

MOGolf - Thanks, you were right. Just needed to use force (oops, but not on the boss for the timing belt cover bolt. *sigh* my ability to apply force in the wrong place is what makes me shy of using it) Your assumptions are correct. I couldn't see the marks before I tore everything apart, so I don't think it's related to having moved the crank(not that I won't try rotating the crank as you suggest). Do you look down in 'front' of the 3 glowplug fitting?

Thanks for the responses.
Tom

 

[Frank M]

Issue: I can't possibly see the timing marks on the flywheel. If you have a manual transmission do you just go ahead and remove the waterline (below the vacuum pump and containing 3 glow plugs) that's in the way (I did see that Mickey's TB change post from a couple of years ago indicated that he did just that), do you somehow bend light, or are you just able to take care of business without actually referencing the marks . . . Again, can someone tell me WHAT AM I MISSING?Tom

You need to check the flywheel marks no matter what.
Use a mirror..If you don't have one used for this purpose, go to a parts store and buy one. The crank can easily move when installing a new belt. Its needs to be checked before and after rotating the crank 2 revolutiions .

 

[cage]

When ever I want to turn my engine in any direction I put it in 5th gear and push the car back and forth. It is really easy.

 

[Farmboy]

So, to recap, my water pump issue is covered.

That leaves me with the timing mark. That issue is also covered. Finally found the timing mark on flywheel. Just one dash that I could see (no zero with 2 dashes, unless I just didn't have a good enough angle - also no confusing second mark that I could find - although I'd love to know how many degrees per tooth and/or how many teeth on flywheel, so I have a better idea of how far I spin when I am looking), looked back and forth on flywheel with the mark on the harmonic dampener in the range of the mark on the TB cover, and that was all I could find for marks.

Cam was off a tooth. Removed sprocket and adjusted.

Fuel pump was pinned properly. I spun back and forth to make sure, looking at the wrong places and the right place. Then sticking pin in with right place lined up.

For whatever reason, I had enough room to leave the fuel filter connected. Just moved it around a little.

Manually spun clockwise a couple of revolutions to chcek piston/valve clearance.

Put things most of the way back together (no bolts in valve cover, no pipe b/w air filter and turbo, no top TB cover on) to try it.

Will not fire. I cranked it for up to 30 seconds. Smelled like diesel, but wouldn't hit. Clearly my reading comprehension and/or my mechanical skills are lacking. Once again, any ideas WHAT AM I MISSING?

As it's already Sunday night and I'm looking at giving up a day of vacation tomorrow, if I don't have things cleared up by tomorrow afternoon, I may have to give up and have the dealer tow it in and tell me what I've done wrong. I hope you can save me that fun activity.

Thanks again
Tom

 

[Frank M]

your timing is definitely off.
You may have to remove the #1 glow plug or injector to get top dead center.
You should see the flywheel mark them. Get an inspection mirror if you don't already have one.
Once you get TDC on #1 you can check the pump and cam timing.
Try it tomorrow. Sometimes getting away from it for awhile is all that's needed.

 

[MOGolf]

Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner, but I've been travelling.

The timing marks you described above read like the timing marks for the automatic tranny. I thought we were dealing with a manual tranny. On the manual tranny there is just 1 slash on the flywheel that is to be lined up with the "pointer" on the middle of the inside edge of the hole you're looking through.

I've never removed an airbox to see the mark. Just look through the maze of coolant tubing with a good light shining down there too.

Now that you've got a belt on it and know the pistons are not hitting the valves, turn it by hand and line up the flywheel mark for TDC. Remove the valve cover and see if you can put the locking tool in the cam. You should be able to, or very nearly close to it.

Next check to see if you can pin the pump in locked position. If not, then if you're not far off (e.g. you can see the hole for the pin with an inspection mirror but it is partially blocked) loosen the three pump bolts, use a 22 mm (or cresent) wrench to turn the pump CLOCKWISE (as viewed when standing on the US passenger side of the car) until the pin can be inserted. I betting that is the direction to turn the pump. If you can do that, then tighten the three bolts.

If you would have to turn the pump clockwise all the way around to get the pin hole lined up, then you need to lock the cam, release belt tension, pull off the cam sprocket and remove the belt. Adjust the pump to pin lock position and lock it.

Verify the crank is at TDC. If not, use the method I described above to adjust it back to TDC.

Then reinstall the belt, making sure that there is no slack in the belt between the crank and fuel pump. Slip the belt on the pump. Then install the cam sprocket with belt. Install the bolt on the cam sprocket, but leave loose by a turn. Loosen the three pump bolts. Set the tension on the belt. Tighten the cam sprocket bolt and three pump bolts.

Remove locking tools for cam and pump.

Retest clearance and reseat the belt by hand turning the engine.

Then try a test start up.

 

[Farmboy]

Thanks, guys, you were right.

Timing was problem.

Not quite as much as a problem as it might have been, however. Had to ignore my baseline for the injector pump pulley. Once I adjusted it in the right direction, voila, working Beetle with timing on VAG-COM running in the 66-72 range, maximimum advance yet still in recommended tolerance.

Tom

 

[car54]

and they will only get easier.

You definently learned the hard way, my first one took me three days of gathering up tools and figuring problems out (there was no metalnerd, or a source for all the right tools to make the job easy at that time)

I can knock them out in two hours now, and learned how to do an Audi 2.8 V6 engine today.

FYI, Ive never had to remove any coolant hoses, or even thew airbox to see the timing marks.

Its pretty e3asy when you know where to look.

 

[Farmboy]

Hey, Thanks, car54, but I just don't see how I'm ever gonna hit two hours if I do this once every 5 years, but maybe.

Although my whole sob story is probably already longer than it's worth, I skipped over one fun part. When I put the new water pump in I shredded the o-ring.

Now before you think to yourself, ouch, he put it all back together, finally got it running, and had a gusher on his hands, it wasn't like that at all.

You see, as I was taking my sweet time getting the thing fixed the motor mount kept sliding down the side of the engine. Each time it slid I'd say to myslef "self, gotta remember to put that back, otherwise you'll probably end up back tracking".

You see, I've let things like that slip before, and put something else back in place, and then ended up having to go back a step or three in order get things right again becase there's just one way to skin that particular cat.

Well, of course I forgot to put the motor mount back in place. I end up with a water pump and and idler pulley on, and a mount that can't be put back where it belongs.

So, I think to myself, no big deal. Maybe if I just pull the idler? Nope, not enough room. I guess I'll just have to pull the water pump, sure hate doing that with a seal, but shouldn't be any big deal.

Egads! What happened to the o-ring?! Shredded! On a Sunday. Where will I get a replacement? After cleaning up the sealing surface in the engine with sandpaper, taking a couple of futile trips to the local Checker and Napa, I pulled the o-ring off of the old pump, used a piece of paper turned into a cone to slide it on the new pump, gunked it up thick with petroleum jelly, and (after practicing without an o-ring a couple of times to get the feel) slid it gently into place.

Seems to be working, and with liquid at only 15PSI(?) or so, I expect it to hold just fine. If anyone would care to tell me I have reason to worry, I'm all ears.