difference between manual and auto alh?

Kevin62

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Location
Maine
TDI
03 Golf
Hello all, I'm new to your site and suffering from my o3 Golf having gone through a midlife crisis(runaway) and shopping for a used engine. I am reading that the injectors and pump are one of the differences between the standard and auto engines. Is this the only difference? Thanks.
 

dogdots

Vendor
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
Kansas City
TDI
None
Yup, and the auto's have a flex plate instead of a flywheel ;)

Are you sure your engine is not repairable?

Is yours an auto or manual? Why did you have a runaway? If you had turbo failure, you should also be looking at a new intercooler or a thorough cleaning of the one you have, and a new turbo. You will also need new stretch bolts for the engine mounts and flywheel/flexplate.

I would also recommend replacing the timing belt system including water pump, both idler rollers, tensioner, and IP stretch bolts on the replacement engine before it goes into the car.

Will you be doing the work yourself?

Only get your parts from a trusted vendor here. There are knock off parts on ebay and other websites that will cause catastrophic failure again.
 
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Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Different tuning too. There are auto and manual maps.
 

dogdots

Vendor
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
Kansas City
TDI
None
Yeah Bob, but the hardware is the same as it would relate to an engine swap minus the flywheel/flexplate, IP, and injectors.
 

Corsair

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Location
Weedsport, New York
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5M
agree with the above. The engine mechanicals are same between auto and manual, so if you're (as seems logical) intending to keep all your ancillary things such as injection pump and ECU, and just change out the engine, then the engine itself is swappable between auto and manual. The auto trans cars got an injection pump with bigger head. I believe it's visually same but slighly different internally, detectable by part number. (but again, that's a non issue if you're keeping your existing injection pump). I'm not sure about the injectors and tips, so that would be something you definitely want to confirm- if you happen to end up using a head from a different trans than was your original, make sure you've got the proper injectors / tips to avoid any discrepancy with the fuel map setup.
=
But..... perhaps the overlying response above is most appropriate- often the engine is rebuildable in-car, without needing to actually swap the engine. And there's benefit to doing that- you end up with internal components of known condition and often mostly fresh. You don't have that if you get a used engine. And I also agree with the above- if you do end up going with a used engine, all of the timing belt associated items should be replaced (and the list is fairly long) so you know without question what is the origin and condition. And stepping back once again- if there was a runaway, that's typically caused by turbo failure, need to address that and remove the entire intake tract- tubes and intercooler- and clean everything out, make sure there's no liquid oil nor debris in there (that could trash your next engine...)

One benfit you might find is look for a trusted TDI guru in your area and consult them. You might find that they can guide you through what seems like an awful disaster, and come out much better than you might imagine.

Sorry for your experience. Wish you the best of luck.
 

Kevin62

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Location
Maine
TDI
03 Golf
Thanks guys for the helpful info. I could write a post that would take four hours to read about my tdi adventures but the short story is one burnt piston, three bent rods, one scored cylinder, and probably a bad head but it might be ok, not sure at this point. My turbo was a new Garrett a year ago and I believe the runaway was caused by my ignorance more so than a turbo seal. I think my best option is a used engine. I am considering purchasing a running vehicle that I can test drive and get some history on, pulling the engine and parting out the vehicle to offset the costs of the engine. It seems that vehicles with automatic transmissions are going for less money. My Golf is a standard. I have purchased the vag-com and enough tools to get myself in trouble. I've had enough mishaps so that I am getting good at changing heads and for whatever reason enjoy doing so. I have worked on gas engines for many years and think that once I get my head wrapped around the tdi theme I'll be ok. It seems that lessons learned the hard way are the best remembered. Thanks again for the input, looking forward to more chat with you all.
 

Corsair

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Location
Weedsport, New York
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5M
It's unusual to have mechanical failure issues with these engines if they are kept stock or close to it. (even well modded, they tend to be pretty reliable, from what I read...) Burned piston and your honest sense of self evaluation suggests to me that you're operating outside the envelope....
 

Kevin62

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Location
Maine
TDI
03 Golf
Hi Corsair, In my younger days I would have been outside the envelope but now days I'm more of a "in the dog house" kind of guy. I am home on lunch break so short on time but later today I will explain the history of my engine. Thanks.
 

Kevin62

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Location
Maine
TDI
03 Golf
I purchased this car with 260,000 miles on it for a thousand bucks from an older couple that purchased it new, loved it for the most part but had given up on it due to the fact that no one could repair it. They said it smoked and lacked power. They provided me with a binder full of receipts and service records from several vw dealerships that had worked on the car. Receipts were in excess of 5000 dollars for turbo, injectors, timing belt, intake cleaning, n75 valves, injection pump, cam work, and lots of diagnosing . The last shop to work on the car stated that the motor had internal damage and would not run. My assumption was the car would need a new engine. At that time I knew nothing about TDI's but thought the car would be a fun project to tinker on. I found the myturbodeisel site and started reading. I purchased a vag-com cable and a compression guage. To my surprise the compression was fine. The car smoked like a brush fire, misfired and did not have power enough to move itself on flat ground. It took me two weekends to figure out that the injection pump timing was way off and to clean the severely clogged intake manifold. The car ran like a champ and this grease monkey had a new passion. Soon after getting the car on the road the injection pump developed a leak which I removed and resealed. At that time I did not understand the importance of the special tools needed to re-tension the timing belt. I marked the belt and pulleys and retensioned the belt so that the marks lined up. The car ran great with no leaks and impressed me with over 50 mpg on the first tank of fuel. Soon after my daughter took the car away from me and I saw little of it until she came limping home complaining of no power. She drove the car for 30 miles with the remains of a chewed up lifter under the valve cover. I assumed the valve had dropped and done major damage, pulled the car in the garage and started looking for another engine.
As my work schedule eased towards summers end I got curious and removed the head to see the extent of the damage. I was happy to see no piston damage and was encouraged by chatters to repair my engine. I purchased a Franko6 head on ebay along with a head gasket and bolt kit. I did not purchase a belt kit since the existing belt had very few miles on it. The down time had allowed me to study the threads on this topic and get a much better understanding of the task at hand and the importance of doing it with the proper tools and precision.
While waiting for my parts to arrive I cleaned the turbo, checked its operation with my newly purchased mighty vac, cleaned the piston tops, block, turbo hoses and changed all filters. I also cleaned the intake manifold again to be sure that I didn't miss anything the first time. Once the head arrived I intalled it, torqued it and did the timing belt with all the proper tools which I also had just purchased. I have left out a lot of details but you get the idea. I opened a new case of oil and dumped in 4 qts and pulled the stick to see that I was an inch over the full mark. Strange I thought to myself. Why would four quarts over fill this engine. I checked the specs and saw that the engine held much more than that. Having never changed the oil in this car before I assumed that the extra oil on the stick would be used when the turbo line and head passages filled with oil. I would check it again after running the motor for awhile. I purged the new fuel filter with the mighty vac and filled the tank and hoses with new coolant.
By this time I was more excited than a school boy on his first date. It was time to bring my Little Red Golf back to life. She fired up and purred like a kitten. The lack of valve noise was immediatly obvious. That new Franko6 head was all it was cracked up to be. I gave myself a pat on the back when I found the initial timing to be just a tad above the advanced line and got it dialed in with only two adjustments.
Like a proud father with a new baby to show off I drove straight to the local country store and pulled up to the diesel pump where my coffee slurping buddies could watch with envy as I put a months worth of fuel in for 52 bucks.
On the 3 mile return trip I was pushing her a little harder to see how the turbo was working when I had the sudden feeling that I was being fired from a cannon. I have read about runaways and knew what I should have done but my drivers instinct was to turn off the key, throw the clutch and pull over. It was one of the most expensive thrill rides that I have ever been on. I still can't sleep at night without hearing that engine screaming, its like an endless recording in my head that won't stop playing. The car left a trail of smoke for hundreds of feet, I think a few homeowners thought their houses were on fire. One of my coffee slurping buddies was behind me and seemed more rattled than I when he pulled over to check on me.
Oil, I thought to myself, you didn't check that damn oil. A long series of self inflicted name calling ensued for several minutes. I have to say that I thought about laying flat in the road in hopes that a big truck would run over me. I am rating this as the second stupidest thing I have ever done in my life.
Once back to the shop I pulled the head to find the not so good results. The following morning I called Franko6 and had a nice chat with him. He mentioned that it could have been a run away injector which is usually what causes a melted piston accompanied with the oil level being to high. The trauma of destroying a perfectly good running engine is slowly being overcome by the joy of tinkering and one day I will return to the diesel pump. :eek:
 

Corsair

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Location
Weedsport, New York
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5M
Really enjoyed your story- you have talent as a writer. You also have my sincere sympathy for your sequence of events.
=
I'm just a backyard mechanic and not nearly a guru as others on here. I do have on my "resume" 3 successful timing belt changes and various troubleshoots, but I don't know these units with my eyes closed like some of the other guys do. I guess you have to worry about that one piston & cylinder- is it scored badly ? And I suppose now all 4 injectors need to be serviced, and in addition to rebuilding the bottom end, franko6 could tell you whether you'd need to go through the head again. Now I understand better why you're making the tradeoff decision- is it cheaper to just get a used motor?
=
Only thought I can offer is- and I don't know how you'd figure this out for sure... Pretty safe to conclude that oil got into the intake tract. Question is- should we assume that the over-fill of the crankcase was the cause ? Maybe the turbo intake side oil seal failed, and you really have everything correct, but a failed turbo took you out ?
=
Sounds like the car is not your daily driver, and you have the option to fix at your leisure ? At any rate, my opinion is- if the body isn't badly rusted, if the car is reasonably solid... It's a TDI 5-speed and therefore worth fixing ;)

Wish you all the best.
 

Kevin62

Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Location
Maine
TDI
03 Golf
Hi Corsair, Glad you enjoyed my story, it is one of many. An old timer once told me that education is not cheap. The end result was three bent rods, one burnt piston, a damaged cylinder wall and we suspect head damage, it is definitely burnt in the area between the injector and the valve of the number two hole which is the one that burnt. That is what made Franko6 feel that a runaway injector was involved. He also mentioned that the injector pump is probably ruined since they don't handle redline rpm's very well. That being said I don't see where I have much to work with. The damaged cylinder looks like it had a welding rod driven into the side of it, not a very big spot but it feels like it is a good .010 deep and it is near the top of the hole. A galled crank could also be possible. I agree with you and in the back of my mind wonder if the turbo seal was the culprit. It would be ironic that the only piece of the engine that I didn't think got ruined was the cause of the damage. I have not researched the testing procedure for a turbo yet but will do so before using it again.
The car is in excellent condition with not a spot of rust to be found on it so even though it is just a hobby project I think my little red runaway is worth reviving. I have got leeds on a few engines but waiting to hear back from the owners and hopefully can find something to work on in the near future. I'm not ruling out purchasing a complete car and parting it out.
 

Diesel Fumes

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Location
Creston, bc
TDI
2003 alh tdi 5 speed
Is there a difference in timing settings between auto and manual? I have an auto car that's been swapped to a manual. Still has the 11mm pump. I just had timing set. Seems to stutter a little upon start up and settles down after 10-15 seconds.

Also are the manual (10mm) injectors interchangeable with the injectors in my 11mm system?
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
No timing is the same. Yes injectors can be swapped back and forth. You may need to adjust your IQ though to match the injectors better.
 

Diesel Fumes

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Location
Creston, bc
TDI
2003 alh tdi 5 speed
No timing is the same. Yes injectors can be swapped back and forth. You may need to adjust your IQ though to match the injectors better.
I couldn't really find answers as to why the auto has a larger pump but smaller injectors. I have a manual car for spares and my daily which used to be the auto. Thought about switching swapping the injectors because they're showing symptoms of being leaky. Is that as simple as switching them around? I don't really want to tune the car, but wouldn't the combo of bigger pump and higher flow injectors mess with the operation a little? And vice versa if you put automatic injectors into a manual car, wouldn't it make even less power? But somehow the autos and manuals both have the same factory power output?
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
Manual cars have larger nozzles but the 10mm, autos have the smaller nozzles but the 11mm. Something to do with emissions and smoke for factory rigs, but it won't hurt to mix them up at all so long as you have the same size nozzle in all four holes.
Adjusting the IQ (Injection quantity) isn't tuning the car, it's more of adjusting the fueling to reduce slow down shudder and smoke control.
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
Diesel Fumes,
With manual injectors and the 11mm pump you'll get a nice nudge on power, adjusting the IQ to a higher setting, less fuelling, will give more fuel for a shorter duration I believe. Like Nero said, it's do with emissions on the original auto setup. Should you ever want to go down the rabbit hole of upgrades, the 11mm pump is nice to have. Think of adjusting the IQ is like tweaking the jets on a carbereuter, lol, if you're old enough to remember them.
 

mittzlepick

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Location
union maine
TDI
2004 jetta wagon (365k)2001 wagon tire burner 6spd 2003 wagon(417k)
Manual have coolant heaters auto no and the hard coolant pipe is different so a swap of those bits if you get a manny motor
 

Diesel Fumes

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Location
Creston, bc
TDI
2003 alh tdi 5 speed
Manual have coolant heaters auto no and the hard coolant pipe is different so a swap of those bits if you get a manny motor
Coolant heater? Do you mean a frost heater type plug in system? I dont think I've seen a Canadian tdi without one of those installed 😃. Unless you mean something else?
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
Coolant heater? Do you mean a frost heater type plug in system? I don't think I've seen a Canadian tdi without one of those installed 😃. Unless you mean something else?
Manual cars have 3 glow plugs that are used to warm up the coolant faster on start up. It's not needed but VW made it that way. Manual cars have a higher amp alternator apparently for this reason.
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
"Manual cars have 3 glow plugs that are used to warm up the coolant faster on start up. It's not needed but VW made it that way. Manual cars have a higher amp alternator apparently for this reason. "

Aaaah, no wonder I could never understand what people were talking about, lol. I just don't have them. And that also explains the different amperage alternators, LSED!
 
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