Diesels not worth the time and money now.

[FXDL]

Diesels now are getting too costly do to the fact of all the electronics etc on them. The diesels of old I have had, I thought at the time we're complicated but compared to diesels of now we're so simple. Diesels of now have more pollution control along with electronics then gasses. Diesels of now are a nightmare. Save your money. Buy a gasser. You may not get the fuel mileage from a gasser that you will get from a diesel but the money save on repairs and maintenance will most likely bring you out ahead of the diesel. Big diesels such as transports a whole different ball game

 

[Abacus]

If you think the diesels of today are more complicated than the gassers then you haven't really looked at the gassers. They're both horrible and expensive.

I am not sorry I kept my B4's and will gladly spend money on them to keep them going, as well as helping others do the same.

 

[FXDL]

I am sure gassers are complicated but do they have I believe a $4500.00 diesel DPF and need diesel exhaust fluid. And oh yes how about their cat's on the VW's, the cost of them I have heard some where around the same as DPF

 

[South Coast Guy]

I see the beginning of a 500-post response.

 

[Zmanzz]

really a 4500 DPF?
DEF cost is so miniscule I can afford the tank and a half a year.
I agree that gad and diesels are way more complicated then years ago. Just wait a few more years

 

[MichaelB]

I am sure gassers are complicated but do they have a $4500.00 diesel DPF and need diesel exhaust fluid.

I have no idea where you get your numbers from.
Replacement DPF unit with CAT: $1372 - 200 core. - $1172
EGR Filter: $245.
Parts: $1417
Labor to replace, the same as any other exhaust system gasser or diesel.

diesel exhaust fluid= 2 bucks a gallon approximate usage 2.5 gal every 10k miles.........big deal
How much windshield washer fluid do you use...my god lets go back to cars without windshield washers.

 

[TDIpilot4u]

I see the next Prius is rumored to get close to 60mpg...but not sure I want to be seen driving that. I've had my moments with 2 cracked EGR pipes, new intake, EGT probe replaced, and now possible cracked DPF...but its hard for me let go for some reason.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

I have no idea where you get your numbers from.
Replacement DPF unit with CAT: $1372 - 200 core. - $1172
EGR Filter: $245.
Parts: $1417
Labor to replace, the same as any other exhaust system gasser or diesel.

diesel exhaust fluid= 2 bucks a gallon approximate usage 2.5 gal every 10k miles.........big deal
How much windshield washer fluid do you use...my god lets go back to cars without windshield washers.

I hear though, that the DPF is a beast to replace, and is a 10 hour job. With shop labour rates running over $100/hr in my area, it's a legitimate concern. So $1400 in parts and about $1000 in labour. That eats up a lot of diesel savings.

I beginning to feel along the same lines as the OP. My Golf has 137k km on it and has been a garage queen:

HPFP: check and not covered by powertrain warranty
IC icing: check, and the TSB kit didn't fix the problem
DPF: time will tell.
Exhaust flap: check

Plus a whole bunch of non-TDI stuff: subframe bushings, two seized rear calipers, broken coil spring, bad wheel bearing.

Cut a deal for a 2016 Golf Trendline TSI, manual, should get it in 2-3 weeks. Good price, nice equipment for a base model, and only 1 L/100 km difference plus runs on RUG. No way I can justify the $3k price premium for a TDI on only 18k km a year (bought the TDI when I still had a heavy commute).

So far though my wife's '13 has been flawless except for the exhaust flap, fixed under warranty. So we'll still have a TDI in the family for many more years to come (we also still have our '05 Passat TDI now used by my oldest son; 280k km).

 

[Hyde7278]

With the gassers now being direct injected and chain driven have fun paying to have the valves and intake ports cleaned regularly (worked for Audi as a tech and saw it a lot- drivability issues up the a$$) yes timing chains don't have replacement schedule but they do stretch and cause issues and are a lot more expensive to replace especially because there's not just 1 chain. Also Audi/vw has had a lot of issues with oil consumption and need to be reringed ( there not the only ones either) so the grass is not always greener on the other side.

Also wait until they mandate ultra low sulfer gasoline

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Diesels now are getting too costly do to the fact of all the electronics etc on them. The diesels of old I have had, I thought at the time we're complicated but compared to diesels of now we're so simple. Diesels of now have more pollution control along with electronics then gasses. Diesels of now are a nightmare. Save your money. Buy a gasser. You may not get the fuel mileage from a gasser that you will get from a diesel but the money save on repairs and maintenance will most likely bring you out ahead of the diesel. Big diesels such as transports a whole different ball game

I understand your argument, but I disagree. In fact you state an argument and no facts.

ALL CARS HAVE GOTTEN MORE COMPLEX and EXPENSIVE TO REPAIR. However they are
much better than a typical 1970's, 1980's, 1990's cars... even 2000's cars. May be the
MK4 TDI was the right mix, but it was not as clean. I see cars like Tesla S being a game
changer. No direct emissions and crazy race car performance. Of course cross country
range is an issue and time to "refuel" or charge is too long (compaired to liquid fuel).

Back to your argument.... The HPFP has been a real bummer, along with turbo failures,
fouled timing belts and expensive DPF replacement. Let's break it down.:

-The HPFP has got a better it seems, less failures and warranty extended.
-Turbo failure, yep a bummer it takes out DPF.
-DPF is fairly long lived if taken care of, and cheaper alternative. cleaning old DPF has promise.
(Of course DPF delete takes care of the two above in part.)
-Timing belt, fail or foul yep can happen but maintenance will take care of it.

With that said the BOTTOM END and HEAD, the engine part, is pretty heavy duty and reliable.
I agree all the bells and whistles are finicky, delicate, expensive to repair...

Turbo failures always have been around but now it takes out DPF. HPFP failure in it self,
no big deal, it is all the damage it causes. So I agree it is more expensive to repair, but
these cars can go 500,000 miles... in theory but why would you? Cars will be better in
20-30 years, time to drive 500,000 miles. I will not even drive another 300,000 miles
in my life. I really enjoy driving my VW TDI short or long distance. I just don't want
to waste money on repairs. I want reliability. My two Acura Legends were reliable to
almost 250,000 miles and still where reliable. However paint & interior fading, no airbag
or one airbag (safety), timing belt, brakes... I got rid of them. I could have driven them
longer. Of course they got low 20's mpg, but drove great, lots of power.

Now the good news, diesel fuel is same as RUG and I just paid $1.99/Gal for diesel ULSD..... YEA.
I get average tank to tank 43 mpg... BEST PART it is fun to drive with drivable power and low torque
that is fun to use for immediate short bursts of acceleration. That is worth it so far. Now with
my 120/10 HPFP warranty. I am going to keep my car another 5 years. I will only have 120,000K
on it. When I sell it will have good residual value.... so why are you complaining?

 

[GreenLantern_TDI]

Ever heard "REAL MEN WEAR PINK"? Well they drive priuses too. Real men do what is required no matter the cost.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

With the gassers now being direct injected and chain driven have fun paying to have the valves and intake ports cleaned regularly (worked for Audi as a tech and saw it a lot- drivability issues up the a$$) yes timing chains don't have replacement schedule but they do stretch and cause issues and are a lot more expensive to replace especially because there's not just 1 chain. Also Audi/vw has had a lot of issues with oil consumption and need to be reringed ( there not the only ones either) so the grass is not always greener on the other side.

Also wait until they mandate ultra low sulfer gasoline

I had a 2.0T in a 6 sp. manual Passat wagon. It's true I could lay down a soot cloud that would put a non-CR TDI to shame, but I never had to clean the intake ports or valves. Nor did I have any drivability issues in the 100k miles I owned it. A good Italian tuneup from time to time seemed to do the trick

Unlike my TDI it never let me down, though it had its issues. Off the top of my head, coil recall, a few spurious CELs, and chronically high oil consumption. But it was quick, I'd get close to 37 mpg highway/34 avg, and could get 600 mile tanks in summer without too much effort.

I've heard that once ULSG starts, we should get see even better mileage as they will be better able to optimize the stratified charge capabilities of DI engines, but then you'll probably see more complex emission equipment, especially for NOx.

Then those who can afford it will trade when the warranty is done. It's already happening with leasing, with certified used programs with 2-yr warranties for the second tier owners.

 

[FXDL]

No facts one says. Out of pocket money for repairs after repair. Fix some and soon after something else. I first had 2001 then 2006 and last driving now my 2010. So far the 2010 the best I think so far but still VW's TDI'S are are too costly. I may be wrong on the cost of a cat and a DPF but i will check again with the VW dealer i go to. My 2 cents.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Diesels now are getting too costly do to the fact of all the electronics etc on them. The diesels of old I have had, I thought at the time we're complicated but compared to diesels of now we're so simple. Diesels of now have more pollution control along with electronics then gasses. Diesels of now are a nightmare. Save your money. Buy a gasser. You may not get the fuel mileage from a gasser that you will get from a diesel but the money save on repairs and maintenance will most likely bring you out ahead of the diesel. Big diesels such as transports a whole different ball game

Are you presenting this as fact or opinion? Either way, it's a pretty broad generalization.

Yes, modern diesels are complicated. Yes, there are components that can cost a lot of money to replace.

In general, diesel drivers will save money if they drive enough miles and maintain the vehicle properly - even more savings if they maintain the vehicle at somewhere other than the dealer.

Modern gas cars are very complicated at the moment, and many of them are turbocharged. Gassers get more complicated every year and that trend looks like it will continue... just wait for gasoline particulate filters, and the playing field will be level again, with diesel having a decade advantage over gassers on particulate filter growing pains.

 

[FXDL]

With how many km's I have driven in last 26 years or so, yes a diesel great for fuel savings but only if the maintenence is minimal. I have driven some where around 1.4 million km's and that is for to work and back home only, not counting visiting families etc.

 

[993er]

That eats up a lot of diesel savings.

No question about it. If the TDI is not as reliable as an Asian car for example that gets nearly the same mileage, you're not ahead.

But I did not buy my TDI to save a bit of money in fuel per year.

I can buy a lot of gas for the $350 I have to dish out for brakes in under 2 years.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

With diesel prices dropping like they are, it's worth it... For me, putting 2000 miles
a week on it, for work, definitely worth it. I change the oil every 4-5 weeks dude..
I know the timing belt is due, I am at 114156 miles as of today, and I got it with 23K
miles on it in 2014, like 9 months ago... Yeah, it's worth it for me. If you're only
using it a few miles a day, then no. It will also have a higher resale value than
a same year gasser. Still, though you did pay more for the diesel in the beginning.

In my area, all winter diesel ran 20 cents per liter more than RUG. That's nearly 80 cents per US gallon. This summer so far it's been running about 5-6 cents cheaper. So on average, diesel costs more than rug year round. As the fuel efficiency of gassers increases, the economics of a diesel requires more and more mileage to justify.

I'm trading for a new Golf Trendline TSI soon, a TDI is $3k more. That's a fair chunk of change, and the TSI consumes only about 1 L/100 km more than a TDI, and it runs on RUG. Since semi-retiring (I do a bit of free-lance translating work), I only drive 18k per year. Since June, I've only put 2k km on my car. It's pretty hard to justify the economics of a TDI on that. When I was commuting and driving 800 km per week it made sense to get a TDI especially if the multiple problems I had were covered under warranty.

I could have picked up a 2015 Trendline TDI; VW were offering a $1500 incentive, but I wanted the new MIB II radio with Apple CarPlay and that was only on the 2016s, and the 2016 TDIs don't have an incentive at the moment. Plus they didn't have a colour I like in the 2015s. I hesitated though, on getting another TDI. My plan is to trade every 5-7 years to minimize time off warranty (i.e. 5 years if I've had a problem car, 7 if it's been good).

The TSI makes 170 hp and 185 lb-ft with the manual gearbox. That's plenty, it feels quicker than my TDI. Torque is available at a similar low RPM to a TDI, across a broader range (1600-4200 RPM).

I've heard of some TSI issues, namely camshafts, but that sort of stuff will be covered by the warranty until Sept. 2020. I will be buying the second model year so hopefully most of the teething trouble will be worked out (though my 2011 TDI was also the second model year and the teething trouble were most certainly NOT worked out!!!).

We'll still have a TDI for a LONG time though, my wife's wagon (she doesn't trade often). Since it's our long distance car, the TDI is nice for the range. Plus so far it's been as much at the flawless end of the spectrum as my 2011 has been at the troublesome end.

 

[deeslman]

I guess to each his own, I do not like auto payments.
A car is a tool not an investment.
Pick your poison. gas or diesel.
If you cannot perform repairs then you write checks.

Il ike my diesels

 

[PlaneCrazy]

I guess to each his own, I do not like auto payments.
A car is a tool not an investment.

Agreed, I vowed I would never again have car payments, which is why I'm getting a Trendline instead of a Highline like I have now, and will pay CASH + trade-in of a car that I own outright (no payments). Base model has everything I need, and I can afford to pay cash for it. Banks not involved, VW finance not involved. My wife's car was paid cash as well, back in 2012.

I just budget a certain amount for "transportation" and put the money aside in my tax-free savings account until I need to buy a car.

 

[FXDL]

Yes diesel costing too much is my opinion. When we travel so far to work and back a car is a necessity. If it don't work, is in the repair shop then it is very costly. Repair and loss of a day pay for most.

 

[FXDL]

Add up the cost you all have put into your TDI's, all the repairs only. There are cars out there that the cost of repairs is far less then our not so cheap to run diesels

 

[FXDL]

Honda the first choice.

 

[993er]

Add up the cost you all have put into your TDI's, all the repairs only.

I remember asking people, usually at work, what they got in their cars dollar-wise after they bragged about how little they spent in repairs over the years.

None of them had a good enough memory when asked and none of them had a spreadsheet of expenses. Basically they were full of BS.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

None of them had a good enough memory when asked and none of them had a spreadsheet of expenses.

Same with this thread. People mention what they recall they paid for repairs they remember, or what they've heard repairs cost. I'm just as bad, and it's complicated by working with a guru that takes care of my cars as well as my son's cars, so getting bills for specific repairs is somewhat spotty.

Since we moved IDParts my round trip commute is now about 34 miles, not enough to justify TDI ownership for many. However, I seem to be filling my wagon every 10 days or so, after getting 750 miles per tank average. So I'm driving somewhere. And I also put about 200 miles a week on the Passat. My point? Even when commutes go away we often find we drive more than we expect, and diesels do help make that less expensive. I just filled my wagon this afternoon, got an even 50 MPG on this tank. Tough to beat, even if repair costs are higher.

We have a couple of colleagues with newer diesels and they've been trouble-free, so far. I didn't have one problem with my '12 Golf in the 28K miles I owned it. And the FE wasn't far off what my wagon gets.

I'm sticking with diesels.

 

[993er]

My point? Even when commutes go away we often find we drive more than we expect, and diesels do help make that less expensive.

Price-wise taking fuel into account, maybe or at best, yes. Taking the overall picture into account, we'll see.

VW has never had great or even good consumer ratings. Toyota and Honda have. Despite that, I am giving VW a try.
As for the real VW Beetles I grew up with, those were solid, simple and reliable.

I didn't have one problem with my '12 Golf in the 28K miles I owned it.

Well I would hope not. That is hardly broken in mileage-wise.

I didn't have a single problem with my '99 Honda in over 5 years and 60K miles and all that was needed were a set of brake pads. I sold it with 163K miles and the engine still runs/sounds like the first day. My friend snapped it up.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

As for the real VW Beetles I grew up with, those were solid, simple and reliable.

You must have grown up with different Beetles than me. The ones I remember (I owned 3, and we had 3 busses when I was a kit) ran OK, but never made heat, rusted immediately, and engines were lucky to last 100K miles, much less in the bus. Our '71 bus never ran well until my dad finally yanked the emissions stuff off it in frustration. The brake pedals broke off in my '67 because the rusted heater ducts funneled water into the footwells and the pedals were hinged on the floor. The rear shocks froze in the winter and wouldn't operate. By modern standards I don't think anyone would find the performance, comfort, or durability of the original air-cooled VWs acceptable. Our standards have changed a lot.

 

[993er]

You must have grown up with different Beetles than me. The ones I remember (I owned 3, and we had 3 busses when I was a kit) ran OK, but never made heat, rusted immediately, and engines were lucky to last 100K miles, much less in the bus.

Up here where we see real winters, I had to take my jacket off in the car. It had the small booster heater.

Rusted immediately? None of the ones we had which were bought new, not used, didn't see rust for 7 or 8 years. Everything else produced back then rusted compared to today.

What other four-cylinder lasted longer? Then for $350 you got four new barrels, pistons and rings. V8s back then did not last all that long compared to today.

Back on topic. As much as I like it, my TDI has yet to prove itself. I'll let you know in 13 years. Hopefully by then we will have more diesel options like they have in Europe.

 

[minilooker]

In my idea diesel powered vehicle are still cheaper compared to gas. You can run biodiesel for a cheaper fuel. What is expensive is when a diesel engine needs repair.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

In my idea diesel powered vehicle are still cheaper compared to gas. You can run biodiesel for a cheaper fuel. What is expensive is when a diesel engine needs repair.

Anything greater than B5 will void the warranty on the current CR TDIs.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Except in Illinois.