diesels end in "USA" traced to 1984 's Pres.Vote

[rotarykid]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

[ QUOTE ]
gredi said:
No offense intended AD. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Those debates were a little too heated for my liking at times, but I did learn alot. It can be a good thing to challenge people's assumptions or to have your own challenged.

However, blaming one man for many mistakes made by many people over many years IMHO is no way to help solve the problem.

So rotarykid, how do you suggest that we fix our problem? Fuel taxes, higher CAFE or...?

You have obviously identified every faulty decision that has been made since the 70's concerning our dependance on foreign oil, now, how about turning some of that anger into something productive. Let us hear your ideas about how you would curb our appetite for the black gold.

[/ QUOTE ]


Something like anual increases in CAFE and higher gas taxes on 91 oct. & higher that reflect the real cost of wasting oil . Don't forget that we are going to have live the current crop of very low mpg trucks & SUV's for at least the next 10 years so if we try to make improvements tomorrow results wont really take effect for 5 years or so . Only way this can happen sooner is with a oil crisis like that which happened in 1973 . I don't think any of us want to see that , but with the US wasting oil at current levels and having to import 3/4 of that oil ( less than 1/2 in 1973 ) not too good /images/graemlins/eek.gif /images/graemlins/eek.gif /images/graemlins/eek.gif


I don't know about you but this really scares me , dieselers would be the only people not stranded in fill up lines . Not to mention the crash of our economy for who can guess how long ????

Is anyone here old enough other than me to remember all the 1975 & 1976 gas hogs still being sold as new in 1978 & 1979 ??? I saw this happen and it could happen again .

Good Will to All /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[gredi]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

That's why I tell people I know that are looking for some way to reduce their cost of driving to look at the VW TDI.

It is not a perfect solution as some would claim about other technologies (all electric, gas hybrid, fuel cell etc) but is better than not trying at all. And it is a proven technology with widely available infrastucture that is available today.

There may or may not be an anti diesel conspiracy happening here. What I do know is this: when the oil prices shoot up where do people go to find relief? Their local VW dealership to buy a TDI or elsewhere for a hybrid. Each time that happens, more people find out that they really don't need that 12 MPG SUV to go to the grocery store.

If enough registered voters that are getting ~ 50 mpg with a TDI find out that the government they helped (or didn't help) elect is trying to force them to drive their gas hog again, changes will be made. It will not happen overnight. If we just keep our eye on the prize, stay informed and help others to be informed, it has a good chance of becoming reality.

Rotarykid, you are helping to inform people you probably will never meet by starting these discussions. Please try to focus on how to cure the problem, not who may or may not have caused it. Thanks /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[rotarykid]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[AndyBees]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Gees! I read this entire thread. My blood pressure went up and down several times. I have to amen Gredi! I will never be convenced that one person has put us where we are with respect to "any" of the issues touched on in this thread. Lay off Bush .... he's doing what Clinton didn't do and what Senior was critized for not doing! Yes, Russia went broke trying to keep up with us!

As for SUVs, well that makes my blood boil too! How dare anyone to put me in a "class" just because I drive an SUV. My 1995 Chevy Blazer (V6 Vortex) gets just under 23MPG on the highway and it will pull my boat, my wood trailer, haul my hunting and camping gear, hunting/fishing buddies, etc. Now, another point in case, my wife, who drives the SUV the most refuses to drive any other vehicle. She feels safer in that type of vehicle (debatable). Although the SUV is 9 years old, it only has 46K on it. It is used wisely. Now, my 2000 Jetta TDI has 96K on it, my '83 Vanagon (less than 20MPG average) has over 204K on it. And, my old 1984 Jetta diesel has 466,000 on it. Point is, there are many logical uses of the SUVs and similar vehicles. If its not a SUV, then its going to be something similar .... to do the darn work ... haul people, pull loads, etc. To me, seeing any vehicle racing down the expressway at 85 MPH .... well, there's the waste ....You know that vehicle is "consuming" fuel at a tremendous rate regardless of its make or model!

You know who you are if you drive like that!

/images/graemlins/eek.gif

 

[blitzoid]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Andy, no offense, but I don't think laying off bush is going to solve anything. A president cannot be judged on his foreign policy alone. Even if he was, I'm not sure bush would be worthy.

When it comes to environmental policies, he's not doing so well either. Diesel's demise in this country is in part because people don't care about fuel economy as much as they should. Bush's support for oil companies and the like won't do a thing to change that. That's why SUV's proliferate. That's a factor in why diesel is so popular in europe and abroad, where fuel costs a bloody fortune.

Yes, your blazer is an SUV, but it's small, by today's standards. It's no bigger than a for taurus wagon, right? Does it weigh 3 tons? Can it tow that much? Try saying that about an Excursion or Suburban. Further, every SUV that is driven by someone who can't handle a vehicle that big is a danger to everyone on the road. Not to mention the false sense of security it gives to many drivers. I know you could make the same bad driver calim about ricers driving civics, but I don't like them either.

I see more SUVs go down in inclement weather than normal cars, and I'm pretty sure i'm not alone there. I'm more than willing to admit that you don't fit these generalizations, but there are countless people who do, and they are driving around getting 15mpg, and honestly, many of them don't need cars that big. One person driving a chevy Tahoe to work? Come on. At least buy a AWD/4WD sedan for your commute. Even an Audi A4 would be cheaper, worlds better for the environment, safer, and a LOT more fun to drive. Subaru legacy wagons are mighty utilitarian too, and they don't guzzle gas the same way.

Yes, you may benefit from the utilitarian angle, but i'm not sure that the majority of SUV owners are doing so on a regular basis. Every Lexus RX300 that was sold in this country is not being used on construction sites, if you know what i mean.


[begin semi-political rant]
One more thing - stop waving the party line flag. At least do a little reading before you start throwing around political attacks. Find out what both sides have to say, and take it all into account.

Personally, I'm not against ousting Saddam. I agree, it needed to happen at some point, and I'm glad it's done. However, I think the administration's approach towards the war has been horrible. Issues this weighty deserve public education and debate, not smoke and mirrors. Same goes for the patriot act. The livelihood of our soliders and our citizens, not to mention the incredible fiscal costs, at a time when defecits are climbing (which is a HUGE problem when it comes to economic recovery) are not things to be swept under the rug in the name of one person's design for this nation.

I'll happily admit that I can't stand bush, and will poke fun at him, given the opportunity, but that doesn't mean I'm steadfastly against all of his ideas. I'll still wear the liberal badge, without a doubt, but that doesn't mean I won't call decisions made by liberal politicans into question. Being informed is central to being a good citizen.
[end said rant]

 

[gredi]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Thank you very much /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I also own an SUV (01' Durango 4X4) and use it how it was intended. As a matter of fact, we filled the gas tank last weekend and realized it had been 3 1/2 weeks since we had filled it last!

It just does not get driven very often. We use my Neon during the week and the Durango on the weekends since it is not good for any vehicle to go unused for very long. It will go on a long trip at Christmas to haul my bride, brother in law, his 3 daughters and me. That's what I bought it for.

Since my oldest daughter is kinda mobile now, we are seriously considering a diesel Liberty next year. Too bad there are not more people like me that own SUV's.

There are many reasons that diesels have not done better here. Cheap fuel, government intervention, US manufacturers going on wild goose chases (GM EV1 for example), unwarranted and abused tax breaks among others.

The root cause of the problem has not been addressed yet. The government and auto manufacturers have taken the brunt of the blame for our thirst for oil. The mfgr's sell us what we want to buy and the government helps them to give us what we think we want. We as a nation of auto buyers have bought into the advertising.

Until there is a real reason to change, it won't happen. A war overseas won't do it. Newspaper articles and TV shows won't do it. Finger pointing and name calling definitely won't do it.

The ONLY thing IMHO, that will effect change in this area is the spreading of knowledge. Most of the auto buyers today know little if anything about what they are buying. It is our job to inform the ignorant masses one person at a time. Once enough people realize how easy it is to reduce our dependance on foreign oil (and all that it entails), change will happen.

Whew!! Sorry for the minor rant folks.

 

[rotarykid]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Just one thing to add , We as a country will go where our leaders lead if they lead through informing us of the truth of our actions either indangering us or making us safe . And our current lack of a Energy Policy is indangering us all .

 

[gredi]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Amen brother /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[danski0224]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Anyone that thinks an SUV is safer in an accident than a car needs to spend some time investigating the crash tests. /images/graemlins/eek.gif

crash tests

 

[trae]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Disgraceful that the CAFE standards that were being increased during the 70's have gone to hell in a handbasket, I don't care who's to blame. IMO there's so much at stake with our greedy oil consumption the standards need to go way up AND we need an incremental but greatly increased fuel tax to stop all this madness before any more permanent damage is done. Diesels are as close to the perfect solution you can get and hell, you can even run 'em on straight vegetable oil; helps the farmers, no greenhouse gases, and not a drop of the Ayatolla's/Mullah's/Saudi Prince's/Colombian thug's/Iraqui quagmire's oil need be burned.

 

[BRUSSELS BELGIAN]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH: Well, I hate to report that G.M.'s BOB LUTZ was interviewed a few months ago. He pointed out that if the U.S. had a gas tax similar to Europe's we could probably END property taxes in the United States. This would be a tremendous benefit to struggling seniors, would actually be tax RELIEF for farmers, property owning businesses etc. But Lutz observed that the American people would rather tax a whole bunch of other important, economically valuable activity besides fuel. This is why we are well on the way to being a "white trash nation," with nothing but fast-food emporiums, convenience stores, and yes, waddling SUV's (motorized phalluses). By the way, in Lutz's automobile collection, he does not have a single SUV. He insinuated that he did not consider them real cars, but merely a money making commodity. Well, Lutz may be a crass merchandiser, but at least he is upfront about America's obsession with being willing to tax everything in the country to death, except, of course, our obscene vehicles. Hope this brightened everyone's day!

 

[gredi]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Yeah, that was a very helpful use of bandwidth. I kinda hated reading that Bob Lutz as interviewed as well.

I have not heard of an SUV referred to that way. I asked my wife if she thinks that her Durango in any way reminds her of a motorized phallus. She responded no, of course. She views it as a means to efficiently move up to six people and nothing more.

What would you do to correct the problem that we have in this country? More fuel taxes?

Please try to be constructive with your postings as well. There has been enough finger pointing to last us all a lifetime. Try focusing on the cure, not just the cause and who is to blame for it.

 

[AndyBees]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Taxes will be debated forever! I personally believe that autos and related items are taxed enough (your wages are taxed by local, state and federal governments..Then you take the change and purchase a vehicle paying sales and other taxes.... then you pay taxes on the fuel, the maintenance, repairs, etc.). Sounds like enough to me. Those who can afford to drive the Expeditions, etc., will just pay the tax and keep driving. The lower income people of this country will be the ones to suffer from higher fuel taxes. I predict if and when (more like when) the fuel taxes are increased here in the USA.... Congress will spend it faster than it comes in.

As for raising standards, well, I believe we are getting close to the limit with the conventional internal combustion engine. Just think about this. A TDI cruising at 65 MPH should get about 55 MPG. That translates to a consumption rate of 2.3272727 fluid ounces per mile. Which if divided by 4 equals 0.5818181 fluid ounces consumption rate per cylinder per mile. Now, that is mighty lean sipping. Someone can take it further to determine the volume of consumption per stroke. Yes ..... that's mighty lean! Now, just think what a task it will be to tweek the TDI to be much leaner and have the necessary power to carry a logical load. Sure technology will carry it a bit further, but demand due to growth will overwhelm any reductions in fuel consumption by and through new technology (standards ....LOL). /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Erik Lupo 3L]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

I read somewhere that 10 cents tax on each gallon of fuel sold in USA could finance the whole Healthcare sector.

I bit of tax on your fuel could start a whole new industry boom of energy saving tecniques.
It sure has here in Denmark and in Europe in general.

You people need to cut down on your abuse of the whole worlds reserves of oil.

If USA used oil proportionally like Europes population, we could do without the arab countries' supply for a couple of years. That would give the US time to nuke the [censored] out of them, and let some friendly, non-muslim, people move in there in stead. The Phillipines, and other civilized people actually doing the work there, should of course be evacuated first.

 

[AutoDiesel]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

[ QUOTE ]
You people need to cut down on your abuse of the whole worlds reserves of oil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess you had better look in the mirror before you speak.....

EU losing ground in tries to meet Kyoto targets for greenhouse gas reductions

"BRUSSELS (AP) - The European Union, which has led the fight to save the Kyoto protocol on global warming after Washington pulled out, is getting even further from meeting its own targets under the pact, according to a progress report released Tuesday.

The European Environment Agency said its latest figures were "much more pessimistic" than last year's mainly because Germany - Europe's biggest economy - drastically scaled back its "overly optimistic" forecast for reductions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

But in almost every country "a runaway increase in emissions from transport," especially cars and trucks, was also making things worse, the agency said."


So how do you get a "runaway increase in emissions from transport"?

My guess you are using more energy, i.e. oil.

 

[Erik Lupo 3L]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Europe is really just beginning free trade between the nations, which has caused the truck traffic to increase.

But ordinary Europeans are not commuting 50 miles or more per day in Ford 250 trucks doing less than 5 km per liter.

Furthermore, we insulate our new houses with 10 inches or more of mineral wool. In the US, you just turn up the furnace because the oil is cheap.

Let's compare energy consumption per head in stead of the European percent increase from a much lower level.

 

[gredi]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

[ QUOTE ]
There has been enough finger pointing to last us all a lifetime. Try focusing on the cure, not just the cause and who is to blame for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read this again in case you forgot. Thank you.

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, we insulate our new houses with 10 inches or more of mineral wool. In the US, you just turn up the furnace because the oil is cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

And new houses in America aren't well insulated? Check your facts before you make an assumption please. The 4 year old home I am living in has R30 ceilings and R19 walls. I live in the south where it does not get very cold very often and still have pretty good insulation. Can someone in the chilly north chime in and comment on the "low" cost of heating oil currently?

Back to the thread topic.

[ QUOTE ]
The ONLY thing IMHO, that will effect change in this area is the spreading of knowledge. Most of the auto buyers today know little if anything about what they are buying. It is our job to inform the ignorant masses one person at a time. Once enough people realize how easy it is to reduce our dependance on foreign oil (and all that it entails), change will happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will admit that Europe is ahead of us in education about the benefits of diesel vehicles. That is why we must educate the American masses one person at a time. From what I understand, the fuel prices in Europe are significantly higher than here. Don't you think that may have something to do with the higher dependance on diesels? Higher fuel economy and cheaper fuel, what a combination!

That is the problem here. Cheap fuel does not make the average uninformed American want to reduce their fuel usage. When gas prices suddenly rise, what do we do? ***** and moan about it but, do very little. Education and a desire to reduce our dependance on foreign oil will make it happen. Until those things (among others) happen, nothing will change.

 

[ruking]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Europe is 85% plus dependent on foreign oil. Energy policies are NOT designed to reduce this dependence!

We should also pull out all USA troops and assets out of Europe to let them handle whatever military contingencies that come their way!

 

[gredi]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

85%!! /images/graemlins/eek.gif Come to think of it, they don't have as many domestic sources as we do, and they do have ~ 40% new cars sold that are diesels. Interesting correlation if you ask me.

I remember reading a story a few months ago about a pilot that flew his V35 Bonanza from Germany to the US. I can't remember exactly where his last fuel stop was before heading out over the water. He said he paid $12 USD/gallon for 100LL while the guy next to him paid $5 USD/gallon for Jet A /images/graemlins/eek.gif /images/graemlins/eek.gif /images/graemlins/eek.gif.

The prices here favor Jet A as well but, not to that extreme. I believe that the 100LL is taxed very heavily to encourage industry and owner/operators to stop using it and start using more Jet A. For those that don't know, 100LL and Jet A can be roughly compared to gasoline and diesel fuel used in cars and trucks.

Coincidentally, European companies are leading the way towards making Jet A/diesel burning piston engines the standard so they can be rid of Avgas and all the bad things that go with it. Does anyone else see the connection here? The governments have decided to move towards more diesel/Jet A powered vehicles/aircraft and industries and populations are responding.

One of my drill sergeants said during basic training when asked if we could have cheeseburgers, ice cream and pop for dinner "I can't tell you that you can't eat that stuff but, I can make you wish you hadn't". Maybe what we Americans need is a good kick to our reality. Driving your 12 MPG Avalanche to work by yourself may be fun but, it may not be in your best interest to do so.

 

[PackRat]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

[ QUOTE ]
Erik Lupo 3L said:
Furthermore, we insulate our new houses with 10 inches or more of mineral wool. In the US, you just turn up the furnace because the oil is cheap.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ignorant much? My house was built during the energy crisis in the 70's. 6 inch walls stuffed with insulation, same with the cieling. My being in my room is enough to warm it up sometimes.

And my furnace, stove, water heater and dryer run on clean natural gas, not oil.

 

[gredi]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

My house is all electric. Last time I checked, my electricity was generated by burning coal and natural gas that is produced in the USA. No foreign or domestic oil burning here either.

Hey packrat, I'll be in your neck of the woods next week. Heading out to dynamic Deming for Christmas. I'll ask my family there if they burn any oil to heat their houses.

 

[rotarykid]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

A country or region that imports 85 to 100 % of its' energy is made much less dependent to the whims of an unstable region of the world if a policy of responsible consumpton is adopted . And this is what was done in Europe & Japan more than 30 years ago . So a reduction in energy use is a reduction in oil dependance . Freeing their countries from the destructive effects of oil waste and all that comes with that .

As I said earlier , we have 1/5th of the worlds population but waste 3/4 of the worlds energy & are importing 3/4 of that energy that we are wasting . This is a pollicy that indangers us all .

 

[MotorCityTDI]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

[ QUOTE ]
Erik Lupo 3L said:
Europe is really just beginning free trade between the nations, which has caused the truck traffic to increase.

But ordinary Europeans are not commuting 50 miles or more per day in Ford 250 trucks doing less than 5 km per liter.

Furthermore, we insulate our new houses with 10 inches or more of mineral wool. In the US, you just turn up the furnace because the oil is cheap.

Let's compare energy consumption per head in stead of the European percent increase from a much lower level.

[/ QUOTE ]

While what you say may be true with some americans, the people on this board represent the complete opposite. Since we choose to drive thrifty TDIs despite the cheap, abundant gas guzzlers, we also probably are conservative in other areas too.

You are right, there are plenty americans who are wasteful with their gas, oil, electricity, etc..., but lumping TDIers into the fray is only going to piss us off.

You'll also notice that we american TDIers spread the word about diesels to whomever wants to listen. We are all on the same side.

 

[rotarykid]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

I really don't think that was aimed at the responseable people that have chosen not waste energy by driving a TDI . But at our countries lack of a real energy pollicy , other than "use all the oil today for we die tomorrow " /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Truth can hurt sometimes , but I would rather know the truth than be kept in the dark & fed sh-- like a mushroom .

David

 

[PackRat]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

[ QUOTE ]
gredi said:
My house is all electric. Last time I checked, my electricity was generated by burning coal and natural gas that is produced in the USA. No foreign or domestic oil burning here either.

Hey packrat, I'll be in your neck of the woods next week. Heading out to dynamic Deming for Christmas. I'll ask my family there if they burn any oil to heat their houses.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they're using oil, they're paying dearly for it considering nobody in this state uses heating oil. Very few use electricity either. It's almost all gas or propane. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm heading north towards Farmington, NM for Christmas --over the river and through the woods to Grandmother's house we go! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Fuego]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Erik is right. Fuel is cheap in the USA, and there is little encouragement to conserve fuel.

The money that we send to our enemies in the middle east strengthens them and weakens us.

It is time for America to consider alternatives to the big V-8 mentality.

The TDI is a great ambassador of new technology. Give a friend a ride.

 

[trae]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

[ QUOTE ]
AndyBees said:To me, seeing any vehicle racing down the expressway at 85 MPH .... well, there's the waste ....You know that vehicle is "consuming" fuel at a tremendous rate regardless of its make or model!

You know who you are if you drive like that!

/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be me...the 96 wagon fully laden & occupied (4 passengers, full cargo, occasional roof rack) at 85+ mph averages upper 30's mpg...

How many cars in the U.S. get that kind of mileage, ever, period? Really is quite pathetic.

So shoot me, I use a radar detector & only get 8 or 900 miles per tank instead of 1100.

 

[ruking]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Europe has unlimited autobahn speeds!

What gives our TDI's part of its character is that is was designed and manufactured to survive in environments as described.

I would be for unlimited freeway speeds in the states!

 

[AndyBees]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Gees! We can't let this thread die. Great comments on numerous issues (related and unrelated to the topic) ..lol.

Well, I just think excessive speed (over 70mph on any road) is a waste of resources and for the most part is very dangerous to all on the road.

About TDIers being conserative on other matters ... well, about 90% of the lights in and outside of my house are florscent (is that how its spelled?). My 14 year old house has better than R-18 walls and has R-38+ ceiling insulation, thermo pane windows, heavy curtains on the west, north and east, landscaped prevailing wind break, high efficient natural gas furnace, super insulated hot water tank (and insulated hot water lines all the way to the point of use throughout the house) with lower temp setting, ultra super energy effiecent gas dryer, solar powered accent outdoor night lighting, oil bath super efficient air cleaning system, temp controlled attic hot air flush-out using waste air from the air conditioning units......... need I say more? Oh! I how could I forget to say the electricity that powers this PC and the lights in this house is generated by Kentucky coal fired steam turbines at East Kentucky Power using Kentucky natural gas boosters for the daily peak demands? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yep .... I do own a SUV .... not only does it haul the family, it does work, such as, pull my boat, my trailer (hauling ATV, fire wood (oh, did I forget to mention my highly efficient wood burning stove? ... uses re-newable resources and cuts on the use of natural gas) .. oh, and my SUV will haul all my camping and hunting gear, etc. Yes, I agree it is wasteful to commute to work alone in a gas hog. But, pickups and SUVs do have a place in our society! For how long, well ... that's a debateable point!

Taxes to pay for health care? Hum ..... I worked for it... Why should I pay someone elses health care? Sounds a little socialist to me?

My 2 cents worth! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[rotarykid]

diesels end in \"USA\" traced to 1984 \'s Pres.Vote

Quote;
AndyBees said
Taxes to pay for health care? Hum ..... I worked for it... Why should I pay someone elses health care? Sounds a little socialist to me?

One good reason is we are already paying for the uninsured indirectly every time we go to a hospital or Drs' office . In higher medical costs to pay for the uninsured . I would rather pay once , not every time I go in .