DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

[darrenf]

If it turns out that B100 will definitively destroy the DPF within, say 50K, I might have pause.

The risk from running greater than B5 is not to the DPF -- pure biodiesel exhaust should have no particulate to filter -- but to the engine. According to VW, if you run greater than B5 and keep a 10K oil service interval, the oil sump will contain >50% diesel by the time you do change your oil and that will hurt the engine itself.

Risks to the DPF include improper engine oil (ie non 507.00) and non-ULSD diesel, I belive.

-darren

 

[GoFaster]

You think using biodiesel automatically means no particulates in the exhaust?

Not so; you can make black smoke using biodiesel, too.

LESS particulates (under certain operating conditions), perhaps. But don't say "none" because it isn't.

 

[darrenf]

You think using biodiesel automatically means no particulates in the exhaust?

Not so; you can make black smoke using biodiesel, too.

LESS particulates (under certain operating conditions), perhaps. But don't say "none" because it isn't.

I stand corrected -- thanks. I'm no biodiesel expert -- just repeating what I had read elsewhere.

-darren

 

[tdisky]

Jeez, guys. Are we that paranoid? I could see if it was say acetone, but it's biodiesel, which last time I checked was pretty much the same as that nasty petro diesel.

In the words of another member here, "have some freaking' balls and do what you know is right." And don't give me that about "I hope you have $25k+ for a new car if you burn bio". My wife has been quietly lobbying for a new TDI, and now I'm tempted to do it, except I love my 2004 so much.

Oh yeah, I forget, in 2004 there were dire warnings about the viscosity, etc. Are there things we don't know about the new CRs and biodiesel? You bet. But we're not supposed to do it, out of paralysis, waiting for somebody else to deliver Hydrogen Helper to our doorstep?

It's not that big of a deal, kids.

 

[darrenf]

tdisky,

The differece between the '04 and '09 is that the '09 does post-injection of unburned fuel to activate the DPF. When it does, biodiesel bonds to the walls of the cylinder in much higher proportion than diesel and some gets past the rings and into the engine oil.

If you are willing to test bio in your '09, by all means test it and get back with us, but it seems reckless to encourage othes to do something that Volkswagen says will be damaging to the enigine.

-darren

 

[tdisky]

tdisky,

The differece between the '04 and '09 is that the '09 does post-injection of unburned fuel to activate the DPF. When it does, biodiesel bonds to the walls of the cylinder in much higher proportion than diesel and some gets past the rings and into the engine oil.

If you are willing to test bio in your '09, by all means test it and get back with us, but it seems reckless to encourage othes to do something that Volkswagen says will be damaging to the enigine.

-darren

Correct. My point is that there always seems to be some danger (real or perceived) in doing what makes sense. I can't believe that B20 would be that different than B0 or B5.

Again, in 2004 the naysayers were in a tizzy about biodiesel viscosity, etc. Boy, my PD is just barely chugging along (not). OK, how about regular UOA and the usual fuel quality vigilance? VW is just covering their heinies against bathtub batches of biodiesel. Most people here are intelligent, mature adults ("Isn't that right, Mr. Poopie-Pants?") that are aware of the possible pitfalls.

That 2009 is sounding better and better.

 

[Tarbe]

I can't believe that B20 would be that different than B0 or B5.

You stated earlier that BD and DD are not much different...

That would explain why you think B20 would behave like DD.

There are some significant differences, especially in flash point (>62C vs >130C for DD and BD respectively).

 

[BeetleGo]

^ But that's a different thread. Please stay on topic on this one. Not slamming, just keeping this one focused on the topic at hand.

~BeetleGo

 

[Tarbe]

^ But that's a different thread. Please stay on topic on this one. Not slamming, just keeping this one focused on the topic at hand.

~BeetleGo

I think a direct refutation of mis-information is always on-topic.

 

[BeetleGo]

I wasn't referring to your remark. I was referring to the one that cause you to respond to it. And now we are talking about this, rather than the topic of this thread....

 

[IN-TDI]

The risk from running greater than B5 is not to the DPF -- pure biodiesel exhaust should have no particulate to filter -- but to the engine. According to VW, if you run greater than B5 and keep a 10K oil service interval, the oil sump will contain >50% diesel by the time you do change your oil and that will hurt the engine itself.
-darren

Would someone please explain how oil in the sump would end up being >50% diesel. Is this only with biodiesel?

 

[Shawnz]

From Az BioDiesel:

Oil changes. B99 may make its way past the piston rings and into the oil pan. This is due to the slightly higher viscosity and density of biodiesel compared to petroleum diesel. High levels of biodiesel present in the engine oil may polymerize over time and cause some engine oil sludge. This can be remedied with more frequent engine oil changes. Blends of B50 and above might reduce extended drain intervals. Monitor and test engine oil as necessary.

 

[Bear-X]

Just thought I'd toss in my $.02. I got my B100 from the same source as the OP. Even just running B15, the car has difficulty starting. Don't know why, but I'm going to have to stay off BD with my car.

 

[Zlartibartfast]

I've been burning DieselGreen Fuels' B100, at 20% blend, for the last 800 miles. Car runs quieter, smoother, and mileage remains the same. Oil level is right at the A mark, as it has been since I brought it home Oct 31

 

[velociT]

I've been burning DieselGreen Fuels' B100, at 20% blend, for the last 800 miles. Car runs quieter, smoother, and mileage remains the same. Oil level is right at the A mark, as it has been since I brought it home Oct 31

I'm not surprised the 09 runs smoother and quiter on bio.

I get the sinking feeling as a fuel, B20 lubricates better than 505.01, as an oil

 

[MBoni]

Given that B100 seems to be just on the edge of acceptable, and B5 is within VW's warranty range, it sure seems like B20 is going to be the best compromise for now.

 

[Neurot]

quick update: pushing 5000 miles, most of the last 3000 on some blend or another due to cold weather - no issues of late.
taking car back in for 5000 mile oil change, will take a sample before and after, and report back.
Also, for those going to the Sustainable Biodiesel Summit in SF next weekend (www.sustainable-biodiesel.org), there will be a representative from a major petroleum company presenting on this very issue.

 

[RI_TDI]

Hey Jason, John here - I met you at the SBD thing in Austin last fall and then again at the thing at the Long Center.

Its good that a petro guy is presenting at the SBD in SF, but we aren't going to really get anywhere until vehicle manufacturers are in the conversation.

I can't be there so please, whale on the National Biodiesel Board reps on this: The best use of lobbying resources toward the long-term viability of Biodiesel will be engaging vehicle manufacturers to design for B100 or other high-blend Sustainable Biodiesel as an approved fuel.

Any of the problems you encountered running BD in your 09 could have been addressed during the system design process more readily and certainly than by manipulating the fuel. If BD is to be sustainable it would necessarily accommodate a variety of feedstocks so tightening the fuel spec. is counterproductive.

Without that the majority of US BD output will continue to flow out of our country.

Just my 2¢

p.s. (Now me and my TDI are up in MA and I am still managing to run about a 30% blend with no issues down to -10°F.)

 

[Neurot]

absolutely agree! In fact, there is another style of DPF that injects the fuel right before the DPF instead of in the exhaust stroke of the engine. CAT uses this, and has demonstrated it with high blends with no problems. So the issue is far more the engine dilution than the flash point.

Also, VW was invited but couldn't get a presentation approved in time (they really wanted to participate) and we may also have someone from CAT there as well.

The SBS is sort of a shadow conference to NBB, and we don't toe the line as much as those guys do...

 

[mannytranny]

Jason....I caught your presentation about your TDI....thanks for sharing.

Also was able to attend a lot of other presentations about DPF's and post injection systems and BD and new diesels in general. Very interesting stuff.

Here is a fun question....why can the new Cummins with a DPF and post inj run B20 (in fleets) but a TDI with basically the same system run B5 only?

 

[Neurot]

It's likely that the Cummins will have problems, too, but that since it's a "fleet" vehicle, more likely to have good routine maintenance practice. More frequent oil changes can mitigate the problems, which was not brought up during the presentation.

I'm going to get the presentation from the guy from Chevron and post it here, along with more details to close out this thread.

 

[Willis81]

Hey, just jumping in here with a strange idea, not sure if it would be of any benefit or even if it would be practical to implement. Most of the issue with using biodiesel has to do with the post injection process. Many wvo/svo users in the older diesels have a 2 tank set up for purging with diesel before shutdown and during cold startup. Would it be possible to add a second, albeit small tank for D2, and with some programming tweaks and such draw fuel from the ULSD during the post injection? I haven't read too much into how long the DPF regen cycles last, would they be long enough to purge the biodiesel from the rail and even use the D2? Maybe those with more knowledge can chime in on whether or not this would be possible. Just an idea.

 

[Neurot]

Willis - the amount of fuel used at the regen is so small that you'd have to purge all the regular fuel out of the system before jumping to the D2 tank, do the little squirt, then go back to the other fuel. a better system is to use an injector right before the DPF, which doesn't cause the oil dilution problem, and have a second tank set up with D2 to squirt in there, instead of using the main tank. That is exactly how Catepillar does it (although they use the main diesel tank), and there is no problem with biodiesel. Unfortunately, the cost is $7000 - $10,000 for that kind of system, so it would be cost prohibitive to install in a passenger vehicle.

Stay tuned for a letter writing campaign to the OEMs regarding their use of a DPF that is not fuel neutral.

 

[Neurot]

Oh and the guy from Chevron said that Blackstone and other labs would not be able to tell how much biodiesel is in the crankcase, since the biodiesel falls in a "different place" in the analysis than diesel does. So our testing to find oil dilution was probably not accurate at all.

Furthermore, the test labs have found a very interesting consequence of using biodiesel in a blend. The diesel fuel that gets into motor oil escapes as fumes through the PCV system. However, biodiesel has a higher evaporative point and therefore does not. So when you use B20 (for example), the amount of biodiesel relative to diesel in the motor oil goes up and up. They did tests where they found "B40" in the crankcase oil, but only B5 had been used. More frequent oil changes is probably the easiest answer, but how often needs to be determined using test methods not currently employed by Blackstone and Polaris (according to Chevron). Someone needs to reach out to them and get them up to speed on this new technology.

 

[UFO]

A fellow on the biodiesel infopop forum reported an oil analysis on his '08 Jeep CRD. After 5k miles, the Blackstone report stated he had 1% fuel dilution that was of no concern. It sounds like the CRD, with a similar DPF regeneration design, may not have this biodiesel concentration issue.

I agree, I would like a better option for UOA than just "dilution". It would be nice to get a report on more than just metals and viscosity.

 

[mannytranny]

Neurot....I was in that same conference and I thought the Chevron guy claimed that the oil labs may be unable to see other small things (he was not very definitive) but fuel dilution was clearly visible.....it would also be visible through viscosity loss...no?

I thought the info at that meeting was excellent...I had the chance to chat with the Cummins engineer for quite a while the night before. There seem to be many potential problems caused by the use of BD, but maybe these problems are identifiable in the lab, but not so much in the real world...?

UFO...what % bd was that CRD infopop guy running? Duty cycle info?

 

[Neurot]

fuel dilution due to diesel is visible, but they can't tell the % FAME to know if it's biodiesel or diesel.

Also, I heard today that Randall Von Wedell's lab CAN test for % FAME in engine oil, so there is at least one known source to send an oil sample to for that test.

 

[Harvieux]

As I specified in earlier posts, I seriously doubt VW, BMW, MBZ, etc. will adopt any sort of expensive DPF post injection system. The main reason is cost. Take VW as an example. VW had to weigh out the fact that they would of had to drastically change their current market position if they did not decontent the new Jetta to overcome the increased cost of implementing their current emissions devices and their sensors. We all know that such an attempt to change their market position may of been disasterous possibly due to their current percieved overall dismal reliability record as well as an utterly incompetent national service network. There are other reasons as well with one being the fact that overall NA bioD's annual production is trivial as compared to demand. Later!

 

[mannytranny]

I really think the best option for people who want to run Biodiesel will be to remove the DPF and retune the engine. The choice is down to DPF removal or B5...take your pick! The evidence is pretty clear that if you run even B20, you will likely cause engine damage.

Lots of Duramax guys have taken their DPF's off, and they typically report a mileage gain...after all, post injection does nothing for efficiency. Maybe you guys could pick up a few mpg too.

 

[UFO]

UFO...what % bd was that CRD infopop guy running? Duty cycle info?

B100 for 5600 miles.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/2721003282?r=32010971#32010971