DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

Status
Not open for further replies.

MBoni

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sportwagen
nicklockard said:
I'll take the opposite side of that carefully crafted waffle position :D I predict that what you say will be true if you state it like:
Dang, I think you just center-flanked my maneuver to take the middle-ground.:eek:
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Just a thought here. Doesn't the computer monitor the condition (IE backpressure) of the DPF? If so, and if it's available on VCDS, it may be useful to run some logs now, then compare them down the road. It may also be useful to take a look through VCDS and see if there are any fuel system related performance items that can be logged now then again as the car gets some miles on it.

I don't know what is possible out there right now for this car, so these may just be impossible ideas.
 

rodneyh1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2009 Jetta
Just got off the phone with my VW dealer svc dep't. He said the DPF regen events will be tracked in the computer. He said they can easily get me that info when I go in for my 10K service. He was not positive, but was "pretty sure" that it is triggered based on pressure as opposed to miles or time.
 

sqdude

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Eugene, Oregon
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI
Just a quick note on the fuel side, bigger picture stuff: from my somewhat limited understanding of biodiesel production, the producers can easily adjust the flash point and vapor pressure to get it consistent with ULSD. A tiny (read this: tiny, as in TINY, as in 0.05%, yes that's tiny, so please don't FREAK out) amount of methanol or gasoline :eek: can adjust the fuel to be the same as diesel.

Producers know this because delivery trucks sometimes load biodiesel when there is a bit of gasoline still in the truck from the previous delivery. The fuel gets tested after delivery and hmm... Now, for the love of Plato, please do NOT go crazy on me about how bad methanol and gasoline are for diesel engines. Duh, we all know that. We're talking half a % here. AND it's all theory at this point, I'm not in a position to affect your fuel or anyone else's.

So if this is possible, then bio producers or the gov can adjust the ASTM standard, the bio becomes the same as diesel, and there's no issue of unburned un-vaporized fuel on the cylinder walls, therefore no oil dilution. So I propose we find someone with an 09 TDI to run B100 and add 0.08 gal of gasoline at each fillup (tank size 15 gal?) and see their oil dilution results. :D
 

MBoni

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sportwagen
sqdude said:
Just a quick note on the fuel side, bigger picture stuff: from my somewhat limited understanding of biodiesel production, the producers can easily adjust the flash point and vapor pressure to get it consistent with ULSD. A tiny (read this: tiny, as in TINY, as in 0.05%, yes that's tiny, so please don't FREAK out) amount of methanol or gasoline :eek: can adjust the fuel to be the same as diesel.
An interesting piece of information, sqdude, but I'm not sure it'll work for the oil contamination problem. Based on my reading of the Biodiesel Magazine article, the bio-D contamination of the oil is disproportionate to it's concentration in the fuel tank. When the fuel mix is injected into the hot cylindar, the different fractions of the fuel mix vaporize at different rates, leaving the less volatile stuff last (which is the bio-D). Adding a tiny fraction of methanol or gasoline might reduce the flash point when you try to ignite the whole package, but for post-injection, my first guess is that it'll just vaporize faster and leave the heavier diesel behind.

Of course, that article appears to discuss a test based on B5 and B10, it's a little different environment with B100.
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
Um... I think I missed it.

Q: Does the exhaust still smell like fries when using B99/B100 in a 2009?

I ask because you smell NO sulfur out of their tailpipe, unlike an 06.

I also applaud you. I got about 60k miles on B100 before the $5.25 (comapred to $3.99-$4.29 D2 pricing) forced me back into Arab country in my 2006. The second and third tanks were B20, then B100 until the last few months.

I also got fuel in Austin Texas in early 08, got some of my best economy on that stuff! But I think it was more engine break in than the fuel itself.

Cheers!
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
kcfoxie said:
I also got fuel in Austin Texas in early 08, got some of my best economy on that stuff! But I think it was more engine break in than the fuel itself.

Cheers!
There is a lot of LSD-( 100-300 ppm ) still available , marked & not in Texas so I'd be willing to bet that accounts for your mpg serge .
 

dremd

Veteran Member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Location
South Louisiana
TDI
06 sprinter. 03 jetta wagon premium with 6 speed ALH swap, 14 JSW
I sincerely wish you the VERY BEST of LUCK

Subscribed!
Need to see if I can buy on in a few years or not . . .
 

RI_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
May 8, 2001
Location
Providence RI
TDI
'05 B5.5v, '89 DOKA Syncro
Jason (Neurot) - Good to meet you at the Texas Biofuels Conference yesterday. Filled up 17.0 gal of your B100 at Junior's on my way home. I'll come by the shop some Tuesday evening soon.
 

guapo42

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Location
Pittsboro, NC
TDI
1997 Passat Sedan
Obviously for the purposes of this experiment he needs to keep his car stock, but for others who want to run b100 in a 'safer' manner, couldn't they chip the car to turn off post injection and remove the dpf?

I guess that would void the warrenty, but would that be enough to prevent the new problems presented with this engine?
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
More than just warranty ... it's completely illegal. In this day and age, I don't consider catalytic converter (of any sort, DPF or otherwise) removal in order to achieve any sort of other objective to be an acceptable solution.
 

velociT

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 10, 2006
Location
Not Austin, TX
TDI
06 Jetta TDI *sold*
GoFaster said:
I don't consider catalytic converter (of any sort, DPF or otherwise) removal in order to achieve any sort of other objective to be an acceptable solution.
Well, that's your opinion. If I had an 09, as soon as the DPF could be removed, it would be gone.

The federal government has REAL problems to deal with right now.
 

ikendu

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Location
Iowa
TDI
2003 Golf Indigo Blue
bluesmoker said:
as far as the dpf and biodiesel; most recent studies indicate the biodiesel actually will benefit the filters

less particulate in = less filter plugging

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/39606.pdf

good luck, my prediction is that you will be successful
Hmmm... so, fewer post injection episodes (maybe none?).

Maybe it is possible that overall oil dilution would actually be less with B100? ULSD does dilute too, right?
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
I wouldn't count on "no" regen events required with B100. You can make a diesel make smoke on B100, and there are still particulates being made, even if they are less visible under some conditions. That means there will be something for the DPF to do, and that means there will be regen events.

We don't know what the logic is that initiates an active DPF regen. It is possible that an active regen is done every X km no matter what the pressure sensors say. We don't know.
 

jvance

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Location
Private
TDI
Gave it back to VW
GoFaster said:
I wouldn't count on "no" regen events required with B100. You can make a diesel make smoke on B100, and there are still particulates being made, even if they are less visible under some conditions. That means there will be something for the DPF to do, and that means there will be regen events.
There's passive regen and active regen. Passive regen occurs all the time as particulate is oxidized in the filter catalyst, and the point of filter load homeostasis occurs at about 680 degrees F. What biodiesel does apparently is shifts the homeostasis point - the point at which the particulate is being burned off at the same rate as it is being generated - down to about 480 F.

So it's possible that the particulate filter will not build up a significant particulate load under normal operating temperatures.

But like you said, we don't know what the active regen logic is.
 

Neurot

Vendor
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI
At the 1300 mile mark (past the break-in period) with no reports of problems or issues. It's about time I take a sample of oil - what is the best way to do that when I'm not changing the oil?
 

Windjammer

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Location
Cinti, OH
TDI
MK4 & Mk5
Neurot said:
It's about time I take a sample of oil - what is the best way to do that when I'm not changing the oil?
A sample pump & siphon tubing down the dip stick tube. Find a Caterpillar dealer near you. They have the pump, siphon tubing & sample kits at the parts counter. The last 10 pack of kits I bought was $90.
 

Neurot

Vendor
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI
At 1380 miles, the check engine light came on. Car drives like normal. Been using B100 since 400 mile mark.

Used my scangauge and found code P247A - can't find anything online about that code. Any ideas? I plan to take it to the dealer on Monday. I could clear the code, but that wouldn't be keeping with the spirit of what I'm doing.

Any code readers out there for the 2009?

On another subject, any Mac users with Safari have suggestions to make line breaks work in this forum?
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
Neurot said:
At 1380 miles, the check engine light came on. Car drives like normal. Been using B100 since 400 mile mark.

Used my scangauge and found code P247A - can't find anything online about that code. Any ideas? I plan to take it to the dealer on Monday. I could clear the code, but that wouldn't be keeping with the spirit of what I'm doing.

Any code readers out there for the 2009?

On another subject, any Mac users with Safari have suggestions to make line breaks work in this forum?
What do you mean by line breaks? I see your posts appearing with spaces (lines between sentences of text) on Safari. Can you post a link to a screen shot to diagnose?
 

Neurot

Vendor
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI
actually, it seems to be different with using "quick reply" as opposed to the normal reply. I don't know why or when, but sometimes my replies come through as a single unformatted paragraph. you're right that the one i commented in came out ok. well nevermind for this thread - thanks
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Neurot said:
actually, it seems to be different with using "quick reply" as opposed to the normal reply. I don't know why or when, but sometimes my replies come through as a single unformatted paragraph. you're right that the one i commented in came out ok. well nevermind for this thread - thanks
Google Chrome does that too :( It seems only IE and firefox work well here.
 

vwrobert51

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
Maui Hawaii
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
check engine light on! :eek: this may be the begining of the damage to the exhaust system, get me the fault code and i can look it up, the new version of the vag-com may have the 2009 tdi fault table, if not you may need dealer to scan system , as my shop 5052 has 2009 tdi in guided fault finding,:cool:
 

Neurot

Vendor
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI
vwrobert51 - the code on the scangauge II is P247A.

From someone on VWvortex:

P247A: EGT Sensor 3 Bank 1: Exhaust Gas Temperature Out of Tolerance
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The mileage that you are at, is consistent with the system attempting to regenerate the DPF. Regenerating the DPF is a situation in which the system wants to achieve a high exhaust temperature. Having said that, we don't know the trigger conditions for that fault code.

rotarykid, it appears that the format for this one is P247x, not Px247.
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
So it's a Px4xx which means additional emission control failure ,

So in P2xxA what does that "2" & the "A" in the code stand for ?? I had not seen a letter used in this scheme before so I figured , I guessed that it was an additional notation not part of the Pxxxx scheme .

Are letters instead of numbers common in the Pxxxx scheme ??

In the Pxxxx scheme what are the numbers used in the Pxxxx position ????

I've seen 1 & 2 used but are 3,4, 5 , ect ........ used ????? Are these just manufacturer numbers or regulatory codes ??

If they are regulatory are these EPA , CARB , Transport Canada codes that failure has a regulatory rule/law that goes with the individual number used ?????
 

vwrobert51

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
Maui Hawaii
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
neurot:yep you just got the first warning:eek: that the exhaust is failing from the egt sensor out of tolerance, this is the very first sign that the system dosent like the biofuel,:mad: as told to us in training class, i would stop now and go back to ULSD, and you might save it, or its $3500.00 in exhaust replacement. no waranty.
 

shizzler

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Location
Ann Arbor MI
TDI
05 BEW Wagon
vwrobert, would you care to elaborate?

Can you confirm the code as being egt sensor "out of tolerance"?
How would this point to the exhaust system "failing"?

I would think "out of tolerance" means either that the sensor itself is outside of a particular electrical tolerance, or that the exhaust gas temperatures expected during regeneration were out of range. This is a big difference.
I think we've all seen brand new model VW's with a plethora of electrical problems... this may not have anything to do with the fuel is use whatsoever. Unfortunately your warranty is now void for fuel and exhaust components Nuerot.

If its an unexpected EGT during the regen, that could be due to the fuel, but still may not pose a problem. Does anyone have info on comparative exhaust gas temperatures of ULSD vs. Bio?

Does anyone really know yet whether the regen will be triggered solely by exhaust back-pressure, or according to an engine run-time / mileage interval?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top