DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

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rotarykid

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p_ferlow said:
Just ordered my 09' Jetta TDI. VERY interested in data from your experiment. Thanks for doing this for the rest of the community.

I'll be processing my own biodiesel in less than 2 months. Most will go into my F250 7.3L powerstroke. I usually run about B40-B50 in it no problems.

VW dealer joked "you'll be fine running up to B20 in the new TDI, if you have any sort of warranty problem say nothing, fill up with reg diesel and get it fixed". LOL
In early 2000 I was at a dealer in Colorado that was complaining about a run of injection pump failures that were covered under warranty . A few weeks later a person from VW of America showed up and asked for fuel samples on all that came in with injection systems issues .

It turned out just by chance a dealer in CA that had a car in for a pump failure decided on their own to take a fuel sample and test it . It came back with a % of BD above what VW was willing to accept . VW lost a lot of money before they figured this one out . I have a friend that lost a pump on a Passat TDI wagon and yes he had been using homemade BD . He pumped all the BD out then pumped a quantity of Dino diesel in before he had the car towed in for repair . VW heed & hawed over paying for the pump but in the end they did . But they also canceled his warranty after this .

My point is VW is well aware of what we run our VW TDIs on in the US so don't expect to get away with much if an experiment in fueling goes badly .
 

kwantam

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barshnik said:
The only difference I see is one doing oil checks, the other saying 'to heck with it' and going for it. Why is it any less of a valid data point?
I'd say it's not less valid so much as just less data. Without any kind of analysis, the only information we'll have from rodneyh1's B100 use is consumption and gross failure mechanisms.

It's unlikely, in my opinion, that we'll see catastrophic failures in the first 5k or even 50k miles running B100; even if rodneyh1 experiences all the failure mechanisms described in the article linked in the previous thread, worst case seems to be that they will cause fuel dilution and additional wear, and maybe a plugged DPF. Other than the latter, these are subtle problems that won't show up except as factors contributing to early engine failure; given all the other contributors to engine failure, it will even be hard to discern which are attributable to B100 without additional analysis, e.g., UOA (and difficult even with it!).

Put another way, the interesting data from this experiment will probably be rather subtle, and Neurot is really looking for clues about the effect of B100 on his engine. Without this analysis we won't have enough data to make informed choices about running bio in the CR-TDIs.

rodneyh1, I don't mean this as an attack on your methodology so much as a contrast of the two; I obviously wish you both the best with your efforts, and would love to see how your consumption, etc., compare. Are you planning on doing UOA at your OCIs? That surely would be a huge boon in terms of corroborating Neurot's data. Maybe a few people on the board would even kick in a buck or two to offset the cost. I sure would.
 

kwantam

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rotarykid said:
VW heed & hawed over paying for the pump but in the end they did . But they also canceled his warranty after this .
They probably can't legally cancel the warranty without proof that the user voided it (and I doubt that "it broke, so you were doing something wrong" counts as proof). Practically, of course, they can do anything they want, since their pockets are deep and their lawyers legion.
 

CentralFloridaTDIguy

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what about inspections of pistons, heads, etc?

kwantam said:
I'm in the area and willing to help out if it's desired. I've got just about 800 miles on my car now and will be running 100% petroleum diesel for the forseeable future. Full disclosure, I added Power Service to my current tank, which has 100 miles on it. I'm willing to cut that out for future tanks if necessary.

Seconding Blackstone labs; in my experience they are excellent.
Are you going to have a TDI guru do inspections periodically of the heads, pistons, DPF, etc?

if so, for comparison, someone in that are should have the same done that is running purely ULSD for comparison....

my $.02

Jonathan
 

Harvieux

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CentralFloridaTDIguy said:
Are you going to have a TDI guru do inspections periodically of the heads, pistons, DPF, etc?

if so, for comparison, someone in that are should have the same done that is running purely ULSD for comparison....

my $.02

Jonathan
If I'm not mistaken, the OP specified he will not be tearing down the engine for this test. We will have to go by UOA's. Later!
 

Neurot

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Harvieux - could you please post a little less frequently? you seem to reply to almost every post in this thread. The devil's advocate position is appreciated, to some degree, but take a breather and let it go for a bit, please.
 

jvance

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Neurot said:
Harvieux - could you please post a little less frequently? you seem to reply to almost every post in this thread. The devil's advocate position is appreciated, to some degree, but take a breather and let it go for a bit, please.
Actually, I think Harvieux is rooting for you and doing a good job of explaining your intent.

So I'm wondering - would a really good break-in that brings compression up to spec help with this fuel dilution problem? If the rings are worn in nice and tight, should that help keep the fuel dilution to a minimum?
 

rodneyh1

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OK, in the name of science I'll do the oil analysis. I'm planning on 5K intervals thru at least 20K. Probably less frequent after that depending on the data.

I'm not coming into this blind. I have a PhD in Mechanical Engineering, and have at least looked thru a lot of studies on the subject. The data shows B100 is actually better for the DPF (much lower PM). Engine wear is no different for B100 or ULSD for similar fuel dilution levels. A big question is if the B100 causes the dilution to happen at a higher rate (it happens with either fuel). This determines the necessary oil change interval. I was planning on every 5K, but with the oil analysis, I'll maybe be able to go out to the 10K to recoup my analysis costs. I'll keep posting data.

Rod

2009 VW Jetta 6sp manual 1,200 miles - B100 from 700 miles
1986 VW Jetta 5 sp manual 265K miles - B100 from 220K miles
1985 Volvo MD11D (25 hp 2 cyl in sailboat) 3K hours - approx B50 from 2K hours
 

MBoni

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kwantam said:
It's unlikely, in my opinion, that we'll see catastrophic failures in the first 5k or even 50k miles running B100;
...
Put another way, the interesting data from this experiment will probably be rather subtle....
I think this is an excellent point. As of this moment, we already know that the worst case speculation is false: the engine won't fail in the first few miles on B100, or even in the first full tank of B100.

But it's going to be very hard to tell the difference between increased wear causing a failure at 100k miles and normal wear causing failures at the design lifetime of the engine (2-300k?)

Ideally, in addition to oil tests, we pull selected parts of the engine out at every 25k miles, and compare the level of wear against a similar vehicle driven on normal diesel. Of course, to do that right, you really need a sample space of several dozen vehicles at a minimum. That's probably something VW would have to undertake (and probably are already working on).

However, every mile that Neurot and rodneyh1 puts on their cars without a failure raises the bar, and gives us a better estimate of how subtle the eventual problems (if any) will be. This is going to be very valuable information even if it's not the last word.
 
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Naimanator

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MBoni said:
I think this is an excellent point. As of this moment, we already know that the worst case speculation is false: the engine won't fail in the first few miles on B100, or even in the first full tank of B100.

But it's going to be very hard to tell the difference between increased wear causing a failure at 100k miles and normal wear causing failures at the design lifetime of the engine (2-300k?)

Ideally, in addition to oil tests, we pull selected parts of the engine out at every 25k miles, and compare the level of wear against a similar vehicle driven on normal diesel. Of course, to do that right, you really need a sample space of several dozen vehicles at a minimum. That's probably something VW would have to undertake (and probably are already working on).

However, every mile that Neurot and rodneyh1 puts on their cars without a failure raises the bar, and gives us a better estimate of how subtle the eventual problems (if any) will be. This is going to be very valuable information even if it's not the last word.
Well said, and I completely agree.
 

jvance

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MBoni said:
I think this is an excellent point. As of this moment, we already know that the worst case speculation is false: the engine won't fail in the first few miles on B100, or even in the first full tank of B100.

But it's going to be very hard to tell the difference between increased wear causing a failure at 100k miles and normal wear causing failures at the design lifetime of the engine (2-300k?)

Ideally, in addition to oil tests, we pull selected parts of the engine out at every 25k miles, and compare the level of wear against a similar vehicle driven on normal diesel. Of course, to do that right, you really need a sample space of several dozen vehicles at a minimum. That's probably something VW would have to undertake (and probably are already working on).

However, every mile that Neurot and rodneyh1 puts on their cars without a failure raises the bar, and gives us a better estimate of how subtle the eventual problems (if any) will be. This is going to be very valuable information even if it's not the last word.
There are other variables too. What about someone who does mostly city driving versus someone who does high speed highway driving? If exhaust temps are such that the DPF is constantly passively regenerated, there may be few if any post-injection events. Maybe the solution to the fuel dilution issue is an Italian Tuneup at the start of every tank. Hey, if I'm running B100 and my carbon footprint is miniscule, I'll be happy to drive the hell out of the car :D

Once again though I'm talking out of my hat. If TDIMeister or GoFaster could weigh in on this and tell me how wrong I am I'd appreciate it.

EDIT: one more point. If the difference is engine failure at say 200K versus 300K, the arguments against biodiesel start to get less compelling.
 
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kwantam

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jvance said:
If exhaust temps are such that the soot is constantly passively regenerated, there may be few if any post-injection events.
"You can use B100 as long as you don't hypermile."

Yeah, that sounds strange. But awesome.

jvance said:
EDIT: one more point. If the difference is engine failure at say 200K versus 300K, the arguments against biodiesel start to get less compelling.
There's probably a "dust to dust" breakeven point, i.e., (making up numbers) 30% less life out of the engine in exchange for a 5x reduction in net emissions during that time means that the carbon footprint associated with producing a new engine is negated.

Of course, the "all other things being equal" assumption is impossible to enforce over 10 years of a car's lifetime, so the variability on the lifetime figures could easily swamp the difference between them.
 
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jvance

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kwantam said:
"You can use B100 as long as you don't hypermile."

Yeah, that sounds strange. But awesome.
Factor in the lower particulate matter from biodiesel, and there will be fewer post-injection events. Hmmm. This is starting to get very interesting.

Also, the dust to dust numbers would be very favorable. Most cars cost less in carbon emissions to produce than one year of driving. This includes the Prius. Also factor in that a worn out engine isn't thrown out - it's rebuilt usually.
 
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MBoni

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jvance said:
There are other variables too. What about someone who does mostly city driving versus someone who does high speed highway driving?
Ok, we need an experimental setup to control for all of these complicated variables. Here's my plan: take a 4 cylinder engine and cut it in half (virtually). Use 2 fuel systems, 2 oil systems, 2 exhaust systems. Run half the engine on D2, the other half on B100. Now drive however you like. :)
 

TDIMANtobe

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This is a very interesting thread and I am subscribing to it pronto! Congrats and a thousand thanks to both of you for embarking on this odyssey that stands to benefit all of us. I still don't have my TDI, but I already have the list of stations selling Biodiesel. I drive by them for comfort. Jance, congrats on VIN, folks at VWVORTEX no longer responding to request for checking commission numbers. Bummer. I only want to know if I moved to production stock.
 

MBoni

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Another thought: oil testing should give us a clue about what appears to be the most credible problem so far, fuel dilution in the oil. But how can we keep an eye out for possible problems in other areas?

For example, some speculation indicated that the DPF would get clogged up on B100. Independent of the likelihood of that claim being accurate, can we test for this problem? Since the post-injection event is triggered by a back-pressure measurement on the DPF, perhaps monitoring the post-injection frequency under controlled conditions would be informative? Would it show up in a VAG-COM device? Suppose it does, perhaps we could count the number of events over a long distance highway drive, and compare to the number of events on a similar vehicle running standard diesel? More frequent regens would probably tell us something, but less frequent regens would also be an interesting result.

Thoughts?

Are there other easily monitored engine conditions that would be useful to keep track of? The engine computer is already pretty smart, how can we exploit that?
 

DoctorDawg

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I am by no means expert, having never even seen VAG-COM running, but if it can monitor and record as much info as I suspect it can, I think that extensive VAG-COM monitoring would add really useful data to this experiment. As I mentioned in the OP's previous thread, I'd be happy to volunteer as the 'control'...I plan on running nothing but ULSD in my '09 at least until the warranty expires (dang it), and I need a good excuse to spend the money to buy me a VAG-COM.
 

weedeater

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It would be good to know if the ECU keeps track of the DPF events. If so, then you should try to keep a count of these events.
 

sqdude

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A little off-topic from the oil dilution and DPF stuff...but does anyone know the injection pressures of the 2009 VW versus the 2006+ Cummins?

I know of several people who bought 2006+ Dodge's for running bio, only to find their filters clogged after ~1k miles due to polymerization via the return line. No issues with B20, just B99.

I'm sure the VW pressures are much less, just curious if anyone has the numbers. Did VW increase the injection pressure from 2006 to 2009?

I'm really glad you guys are doing this. I too am concerned about the future of bio in these newer, fancier diesels. My dream is an all-wheel drive, plug-in, carbon-fiber, biodiesel hybrid. Maybe someday...
 

pugman

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jvance said:
So I'm wondering - would a really good break-in that brings compression up to spec help with this fuel dilution problem? If the rings are worn in nice and tight, should that help keep the fuel dilution to a minimum?
With that being said, would it be prudent to break in the engine on ULSD for say the first 50-60K miles and then switch over to Biodiesel? :confused:

BTW: I am following this thread closely as I want to start making my own Biodiesel and also want to run it in the 09-up diesels. :cool:
 

Lightflyer1

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If people are going to buy a 2009 with the expectation that they can use biodiesel, using it from new I think would be prefered. Who wants to buy a car with bio in mind and then wait a couple of years or so to use it.
 

Neurot

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pugman - in my opinion, that's not necessary at all. Even if there is oil dilution, change oil more frequently should eliminate any chance of it getting to the point where it affects engine life. Used Oil Analysis on one (or better yet, a few) vehicles should lead to a basic recommendation for oil change frequency.

These are not times to be prudent - if we want to break our country's addiction to oil, we have to take bold steps. Everyone's comfort level is different, so let your conscience and pocketbook be your guide. I'm willing to take what I feel is a very small risk for a very big reward. The chances of something being irreparably damaged by using B100 is so slim, I'm not worried about it. However, the point of my testing is to give others a measure of comfort that I already have.
 

rodneyh1

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I've got my 1st concern with my biodiesel experiment. My engine oil level is quite high. It's still within VW's range, but not by much. For those of you that know the 2009 dipstick, I'm 1/2 way thru the A range (which is above the normal range). I gotta say, I'm a bit worried.

The car has 1,300 miles and I just checked it this morning for (very shamefully) the 1st time. I re-checked it many times and it always read the same. Car was cold after sitting overnight. Oil still looked good and has no noticeable fuel odor yet.

Needless to say, I'll check it at very frequent (at most, 100 mile) intervals from here on. If it really is rising fast, it's probably the end of my experiment. It's possible that the car was delivered with a high oil level, but that may be just wishful thinking.

Could some other '09 owners PLEASE let me know what your oil levels are doing?

Rod
 

rodneyh1

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A bit less concerned

I just rechecked my oil exactly as specified in my owners manual. The manual assumes that the car has been running. I started it up, ran it for about 2 minutes and shut it down. The manual says to wait a few minutes to let the oil drain... I waited 3 minutes and checked it. It is now just above the B range.

So: After sitting overnight and checking cold it was 3/8" above the B range and checking according to the manual it was 1/8" above the B range. I'm probably not as near a disaster as I thought, but still a real concern. My watch shall be vigilent.

I ordered oil analysis kits from Blackstone yesterday and spoke to one of their technical guys for a bit. We decided to do an oil change and analysis at 5K. We'll discuss the results to determine the next interval. If everything looks good, the analysis interval will likely be held at 5K so that it will coincide with my 1st dealer service.

Rod
 

konspence

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rodneyh1 said:
I just rechecked my oil exactly as specified in my owners manual. The manual assumes that the car has been running. I started it up, ran it for about 2 minutes and shut it down. The manual says to wait a few minutes to let the oil drain... I waited 3 minutes and checked it. It is now just above the B range.

So: After sitting overnight and checking cold it was 3/8" above the B range and checking according to the manual it was 1/8" above the B range. I'm probably not as near a disaster as I thought, but still a real concern. My watch shall be vigilent.

I ordered oil analysis kits from Blackstone yesterday and spoke to one of their technical guys for a bit. We decided to do an oil change and analysis at 5K. We'll discuss the results to determine the next interval. If everything looks good, the analysis interval will likely be held at 5K so that it will coincide with my 1st dealer service.

Rod
I admire the fact that you're running biodiesel in a 2009 TDI. It's going to be people like you that gain acceptance for biodiesel on the new TDIs, so your efforts are essential.

HOWEVER, I would like to point out that the cause of your worries is mostly unfounded. You mention a high oil level the first time you've checked it. Therefore, there is no point of reference by which to compare it to (i.e., if you had checked it when you bought the car, and then checked it after 1,000 miles of B99). So, the car may have come already high on oil, which I'm sure is not unheard of.

If you plan on doing oil analyses, you may also not want to use the results to jump to conclusions. Say for example, the first analysis comes back saying there's fuel in the oil. Obviously a red flag, but again, since these engines are new, we have nothing to use as comparison. The DPF may also dilute the engine oil with regular diesel as well as biodiesel. Who knows.

On another note, let's all cross our fingers for Neurot, the one who started this thread. It looks like the hurricane is near Austin, which would mean bad news for him, or at least anyone he knows nearby.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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rodneyh1 said:
I've got my 1st concern with my biodiesel experiment. My engine oil level is quite high. It's still within VW's range, but not by much. For those of you that know the 2009 dipstick, I'm 1/2 way thru the A range (which is above the normal range). I gotta say, I'm a bit worried.

The car has 1,300 miles and I just checked it this morning for (very shamefully) the 1st time. I re-checked it many times and it always read the same. Car was cold after sitting overnight. Oil still looked good and has no noticeable fuel odor yet.

Needless to say, I'll check it at very frequent (at most, 100 mile) intervals from here on. If it really is rising fast, it's probably the end of my experiment. It's possible that the car was delivered with a high oil level, but that may be just wishful thinking.

Could some other '09 owners PLEASE let me know what your oil levels are doing?

Rod
Rod, why don't you get a sampling kit (I use Blackstone, but there are others), and sample the oil, say, at 2000 miles? You can do that without changing it. If there's biodiesel migration they'll see it and you can do an early change. If not you can go ahead to the 5K service and check it again then.
 

rodneyh1

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If my oil level creeps up any more, I'll do the analysis early. If it looks steady, I'll hold off to 5K.

I plan on posting my oil analysis results and my mpg results somewhere accessible. Any thoughts on where I can do that? I'll also have the dealer get me the DPF regen interval if it's available at 10K service intervals. Any other info people would find useful???

Rod
 
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