DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

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jvance

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bluesmoker said:
as far as the dpf and biodiesel; most recent studies indicate the biodiesel actually will benefit the filters

less particulate in = less filter plugging

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/39606.pdf

good luck, my prediction is that you will be successful
Good paper - even B20 lowers the temperature at which the particulate oxidation equals particulate accumulation B100 drops it 200 degrees F. Running B100 and not babying it may result in no active regeneration events at all.

However, the DPF used in the test is a different design from the VW DPF. The test DPF is entirely passive - it relies on exhaust heat to oxidize the particulate. The 09 VW DPF "cracks" fuel on a diesel oxidation catalyst, releasing heat into the exhaust stream during a regen event. The question remains whether the post-injected biodiesel will react with the catalyst the same way that diesel does, or will it pass uncracked right onto the filter material?
 

Honeydew

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rodneyh1 said:
I plan on posting my oil analysis results and my mpg results somewhere accessible. Any thoughts on where I can do that?
You can load them into your tdiclub member album in the photos section and link them in your signature so they are accessible from any of your posts. Like this, for example.
 

jvance

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rodneyh1 said:
If my oil level creeps up any more, I'll do the analysis early. If it looks steady, I'll hold off to 5K.

I plan on posting my oil analysis results and my mpg results somewhere accessible. Any thoughts on where I can do that? I'll also have the dealer get me the DPF regen interval if it's available at 10K service intervals. Any other info people would find useful???

Rod
Google Docs as a spreadsheet?
 

Ted Hurst

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rodneyh1 said:
I've got my 1st concern with my biodiesel experiment. My engine oil level is quite high. It's still within VW's range, but not by much. For those of you that know the 2009 dipstick, I'm 1/2 way thru the A range (which is above the normal range). I gotta say, I'm a bit worried.

The car has 1,300 miles and I just checked it this morning for (very shamefully) the 1st time. I re-checked it many times and it always read the same. Car was cold after sitting overnight. Oil still looked good and has no noticeable fuel odor yet.

Needless to say, I'll check it at very frequent (at most, 100 mile) intervals from here on. If it really is rising fast, it's probably the end of my experiment. It's possible that the car was delivered with a high oil level, but that may be just wishful thinking.

Could some other '09 owners PLEASE let me know what your oil levels are doing?

Rod
I'm not sure how the 06 compares to the 09 but it was my experience durring the first 10K miles for the engine to burn a half a quart or so. After I got over 20k miles it stopped.
 

barshnik

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Good - my oil level is identical to when I took delivery
Bad - the level is slightly above the 'A' range. I never read the manual on how to read the dipstick till you mentioned this. I'm on the way to Autozone to find a dipstick pump to get a little oil back out, maybe 1/4 quart. Thanks for pointing this out and making me read the manual.

John F
'09 TDI, 1600 miles
 

shizzler

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rodneyh1 said:
If my oil level creeps up any more, I'll do the analysis early. If it looks steady, I'll hold off to 5K.
Rod
Hold on everybody! Step back a minute and chill.

The premise I am reading out of your statements here is that you are concerned about a rising level of oil indicating increasing oil dilution, with biodiesel as the culprit.

But think about it: Why would biodiesel sneak past the piston rings into the crankcase where regular ULSD would not....? The only valid concern I have heard about using biodiesel thus far has been that small amounts, or even any amount, of biodiesel in engine oil will eventually damage internal reciprocating / rotating engine components by displacing proper lubrication (due to polarity of methyl ester molecules vs polarity of engine oil and specific high pressure additives). This concern could well be valid (though I consider it prematurely paranoid, as I don't think any OEM would consider an amount of measured oil dilution harmfull enough to seriously displace lubrication as acceptable during initial engine testing. They would not approve an engine for production if it had such a flaw - though major mistakes like this can occur, even on this level).

But there is no reason that biodiesel, as a fuel, will cause a noticeably larger gross amount of oil dilution. It will burn in the cylinder exactly as regular ULSD will. The only contention, and we only have one that I know of, is a less than substanstial claim of a VW tech. paper stating that the exhaust aftertreatment regeneration strategy of the CR engine involves an injection event after combustion has ended, thereby rendering some amount of oil dilution likely. AND at that, only if a significant amount of oil makes it onto the cylinder walls, unburned, and then past the piston rings and mixed into the engine oil. I personally find this an unlikely scenario. The injection spray pattern will certainly be tight and focused on the piston bowl. Even if the piston was a 1/4 way down the bore, it shouldnt hit the cylinder walls. Anyway, getting off track here.

Theres no reason that Biodiesel will specifically dilute your engine oil MORE than regular diesel. The only concern is that this SAME amount of dilution will be detrimental to engine components. If you do have an observably rising oil level, you'd be screwed no matter what fuel you are using, and you would have a major sealing issue in at least one cylinder. Wait, would you stop using biodiesel only to protect your warranty? That might be worth doing, lol.

BUT, please dont be worried, or spread worry, about a mystery rising oil level as caused by biodiesel. My geuss for the high oil level would be that before the rings break in, some is going to sneak into the cylinder and burn on the cylinder walls during combustion. This is normal (ever had a car that drank oil slowly? If it didnt leak onto the ground, this is where it was going). VW may know this, and perhaps slightly overfill the engine for delivery before proper break-in has occured. Thus by your first scheduled oil change, the level hasnt dropped to the low mark of the dipstick.

Please wait until some time and miles have passed to raise concern. Oh and BTW, every engine dipstick is meant to be checked for a warm, just run engine ,where the oil has been pumped up into the cylinder head, turbo, coating all components, etc. When your engine sits and cools, it all drains back into the oil pan and the level appears higher.

personal note: I want to commend everyone using biodiesel on the 09 engines! You are brave pioneers, yes, but honestly if you live in a warm climate I don't think you're risking much at all. Certainly not 26 thousand dollars. Worst case, a $2-4k engine overhaul. Some amount of increased maintenance is WORTH IT for a vehicle that runs on zero petroleum, IMO. Kudos. btw, I specifically bought an '03 ALH engine VW instead of the PD because internet fear-mongerers cautioned against using biodiesel in the PD. Shame on them, as we all know better now. How many of those same people jumped on the fear bandwagon this go-around.....?
 

nicklockard

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His oil readings were using the incorrect methods. Whatever differences he thought he was seeing were most likely due to measurement error, not actual discrepancies.
 

barshnik

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I was not concerned that oil level was rising (I'm not using bio now anyway) but rather that it was slightly overfilled from the factory / dealer. The level has not changed in the last 1600 miles, it was just a little high to begin with.

John F
 

shizzler

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bars, right. thats why i didnt quote you in my reply, but rather someone else.

Glad your level is steady though - did you pump some out? I wouldn't worry about this much... it'll probably burn off.

Were you ever using bio, or did you recently stop for some reason?

Do we have a total # of bio users in '09 TDI's yet? Only 3 or 4, or am I not paying enough attention?
 

NarfBLAST

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I wish we had some way to turn off the regens and monitor the DPF... then we could just italian tune up when when the DPF got clogged or something? Dare I suggest a DPF delete?

But there may be nothing to get excited about: so we wait for the UOA (and I hope my TDI lasts a few more years). Good Luck!
 

RI_TDI

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Cheers Jason for putting your money where your mouth is. You, too, Rodney.

Will data points and UOAs from a PD be of use in this thread? I just purchased my 05 B5.5v @ 57k mi and began using DieselGreen B100 as soon as I got the car to Austin. I recently changed the oil and intend to do regular UOAs to dial in a reasonable OCI. Let me know.

Perhaps we ought to agree a testing schedule in advance to facilitate comparison from vehicle to vehicle.

In any case this could turn out to be a very useful thread. Thanks again forgetting the ball rolling.
 

MBoni

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shizzler said:
But there is no reason that biodiesel, as a fuel, will cause a noticeably larger gross amount of oil dilution. It will burn in the cylinder exactly as regular ULSD will. The only contention, and we only have one that I know of, is a less than substanstial claim of a VW tech. paper stating that the exhaust aftertreatment regeneration strategy of the CR engine involves an injection event after combustion has ended, thereby rendering some amount of oil dilution likely.
Shizzler, maybe you read a different article than the rest of us, but this is the document that most clearly describes our primary concern:
Biodiesel Magazine - Understanding the Post-Injection Problem

Because the bio-d has a slightly different boiling point than regular diesel, it does appear that the post-injection will leave more liquid on the cylinder walls, so the contamination problem is accelerated. Howard Fang, from Cummins, seems to have done some serious research investigating this problem, and I think he qualifies as a credible source. He makes a strong argument (emphasis added):
article said:
Cummins has done extensive work to characterize biodiesel’s effects on engines, performance and exhaust. “Biodiesel definitely promotes fuel dilution,” Fang says.

Post-injection of fuel into the cylinders is intended to vaporize in the cylinder but not combust, exiting then through the exhaust valves and traveling downstream where the introduction of the unburned fuel to the catalyst creates an exothermic reaction incinerating the collected soot. Inevitably the heavier fractions of fuel will not vaporize during post-injection and in liquid form can adhere to the cylinder walls. Through the slapping motion of the pistons and oil rings, the unburned fuel from post-injection can make its way through the tight, hot quarters between the piston, rings and cylinder walls. The fuel accumulates in the crankcase and dilutes the oil, which is a major concern regarding engine wear and longevity.

“Using post-injection you will generally see elevated levels of fuel dilution regardless of what fuel you’re using,” Sappok says. Because biodiesel has a higher distillation temperature and boiling point, when it’s present in the post-injected fuel it tends to dilute the oil on a level disproportionate to its blend ratio in the fuel. Fang says this is just now becoming understood.
It's a concern, but it's not an insurmountable problem. Doing the oil testing will allow us to get a feel for how big an issue it'll be, and provide direction for mitigating the issue.
 

jvance

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MBoni said:
[ RE: biodiesel oil dilution due to post injection ]
It's a concern, but it's not an insurmountable problem. Doing the oil testing will allow us to get a feel for how big an issue it'll be, and provide direction for mitigating the issue.
Okay, since other people are putting their money where their mouths are, I'll do the same.

I'll bet a brand new, crisp five dollar bill that a 2009 TDI running B100 and driven briskly will have ZERO oil dilution, due to ZERO post injection regeneration events.

This is big money here. I'll understand it if nobody wants to cover this bet.
 

TDIMeister

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jvance said:
Okay, since other people are putting their money where their mouths are, I'll do the same.

I'll bet a brand new, crisp five dollar bill that a 2009 TDI running B100 and driven briskly will have ZERO oil dilution, due to ZERO post injection regeneration events.

This is big money here. I'll understand it if nobody wants to cover this bet.
When a proper protocol is determined to detect a post-injection regeneration (or not) on a car with untempered, unaltered emission controls, I'm down for the bet.
 

jvance

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TDIMeister said:
When a proper protocol is determined to detect a post-injection regeneration (or not) on a car with untempered, unaltered emission controls, I'm down for the bet.
None of your funny Euro money here. Lincoln's smiling face or no deal. Transfer by fax is acceptable.

Essentially I'm betting that with a 112 degree C lower "break even" temperature for filter loading, combined with lower particulate production from biodiesel, a briskly (but not insanely) driven 09 TDI will continuously burn off enough particulate to keep the filter from reaching threshold loading.
 
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TDIMeister

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barshnik

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jvance said:
Okay, since other people are putting their money where their mouths are, I'll do the same.

I'll bet a brand new, crisp five dollar bill that a 2009 TDI running B100 and driven briskly will have ZERO oil dilution, due to ZERO post injection regeneration events.

This is big money here. I'll understand it if nobody wants to cover this bet.
I live in LV, so just out of habbit I'll take your bet. You can scan and email the $5 if you like to save mailing cost.

Do we even know if post injection events are only triggered by need, and not scheduled?

John F
LV, NV
 

shizzler

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MBoni said:
Shizzler, maybe you read a different article than the rest of us, but this is the document that most clearly describes our primary concern:
Biodiesel Magazine - Understanding the Post-Injection Problem
No, that was it. I was referring to the second portion of the article in which the author references biodiesel competing with ZDDP for area on the cylinder walls, thereby displacing full lubrication.

Sorry to be vaugue, I was a little out of sorts when I typed all that. I skipped over discussing the first portion of the article as I really don't buy it as a concern. 45 percent oil dilution and NO engine damage! Thats after 10,000 miles or dyno equivalent of engine testing using continuous post injection! (need more info here). Anyone with 40% more "oil" in their crankcase after 5k miles of driving can come pick me up and we'll drive over to the VW dealer so I can buy you a new car. (I'll take yours since it will still be perfectly fine). Like others have said, with biodiesel possibly lowering the amount and/or frequency of regeneration events called for, assuming they are triggered by exhaust backpressure and not a set interval of time/operation, there could be nearly no cause for concern.

This one sentence troubles me: "Fang has developed a method to more precisely measure this and found that post-injected B20 can lead to as much as 40 percent methyl ester accumulation on the cylinder walls."
40% of what? Total fuel injected? Or just post injected? Or just 40% greater than regular ULSD?

The other problem is that we dont know the distillation temperature and boiling point of the special additive he uses for his tracer method of measuring oil dilution. If the pentaerythritol ester is higher for either property, it would give falsely high readings for dilution levels. Hopefully he took that into account.

I need to look up some SAE papers on this tomorrow at work.

Someone hack into the ECU allready and find a harness pin to track post injection with..... Joe Hafner has a tuning box availible allready - what else does he know?
 

jvance

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shizzler said:
No, that was it. I was referring to the second portion of the article in which the author references biodiesel competing with ZDDP for area on the cylinder walls, thereby displacing full lubrication.

Sorry to be vaugue, I was a little out of sorts when I typed all that. I skipped over discussing the first portion of the article as I really don't buy it as a concern. 45 percent oil dilution and NO engine damage! Thats after 10,000 miles or dyno equivalent of engine testing using continuous post injection! (need more info here). Anyone with 40% more "oil" in their crankcase after 5k miles of driving can come pick me up and we'll drive over to the VW dealer so I can buy you a new car. (I'll take yours since it will still be perfectly fine). Like others have said, with biodiesel possibly lowering the amount and/or frequency of regeneration events called for, assuming they are triggered by exhaust backpressure and not a set interval of time/operation, there could be nearly no cause for concern.

This one sentence troubles me: "Fang has developed a method to more precisely measure this and found that post-injected B20 can lead to as much as 40 percent methyl ester accumulation on the cylinder walls."
40% of what? Total fuel injected? Or just post injected? Or just 40% greater than regular ULSD?

The other problem is that we dont know the distillation temperature and boiling point of the special additive he uses for his tracer method of measuring oil dilution. If the pentaerythritol ester is higher for either property, it would give falsely high readings for dilution levels. Hopefully he took that into account.

I need to look up some SAE papers on this tomorrow at work.

Someone hack into the ECU allready and find a harness pin to track post injection with..... Joe Hafner has a tuning box availible allready - what else does he know?
I THINK he means 45% oil dilution vs. anti wear additives, not 40% of the contents of the crank case is biodiesel. And, on the cylinder wall, 40% displacement of ZDDP.
 

capflya

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NarfBLAST said:
I wish we had some way to turn off the regens and monitor the DPF... Dare I suggest a DPF delete?
I'm sure it can be done. It is not legal, but knowing this it can be done. There is a huge diesel truck performance market right now. I am kind of a part of it, I have a 2007.5 chevy duramax that came with some emissions (DPF) garbage. With programming the DPF can be deleted. On the trucks it requires DTC codes to be shut off, and other programming changes.

Some thoughts on the regeneration process...

I read some folks saying maybe it is possible for the car to not go into a regeration with the use of biodiesel because it would continually burn out the particulate, and also burn cleaner that D2. Here our my thoughts based on experience I have with the DPF system that was fitted on my truck that I purchased last November.

One thing to do with the regeneration process that may shine some light for everyone here. I do not know if this is true of the VW TDI, but I do know it is true for the diesel trucks fitted with a DPF. We know the DPF runs off of pressure sensors and when the pressure is low the vehicle will go into "regen" and burn/blow/clean out the filter of the icky soot. What I have not read in here, that is true on the trucks is that even if the pressure is good, the trucks (again not sure on the VW's) will still go into a regeneration mode after a set amount of miles are driven to be sure the DPF stays clean. The trucks, if the filter becomes clogged will display a message that says "clean filter now" and the dealer (or aftermarket tuning) can to a manual non-driving regen so clean it out if it is that bad.

Just wanted to share this knowledge since I have been lurking, and now put my name down on the new TDI so mine is on it's way. Again, I do not know if VW intigrated the "regen after x amount of miles if not already done" into their programming, but it is VERY likely they did this. I could be wrong so if somebody does not then please comment, I would like to be corrected on the VW's so I know for my self. Just wanted to share what I have learned over the past 9 months I have had my duramax (now sans-DPF :D )
 
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jvance

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capflya said:
I'm sure it can be done. It is not legal, but knowing this it can be done. There is a huge diesel truck performance market right now. I am kind of a part of it, I have a 2007.5 chevy duramax that came with some emissions (DPF) garbage. With programming the DPF can be deleted. On the trucks it requires DTC codes to be shut off, and other programming changes.
Um, this kind of goes against the spirit and purpose of this thread. The biodiesel test has to be with a stock, emissions compliant car.

Besides, according to this article adding a DPF to a 2002 Cummins ISB reduced fuel economy by almost 2% (two percent). Not sure it's worth doing a DPF delete.
 

capflya

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jvance said:
Um, this kind of goes against the spirit and purpose of this thread. The biodiesel test has to be with a stock, emissions compliant car.

Besides, according to this article adding a DPF to a 2002 Cummins ISB reduced fuel economy by almost 2% (two percent). Not sure it's worth doing a DPF delete.
Sorry, I did not mean to bird dog the thread. I was mearly adding information to what I have read about people saying that using biodiesel would bring the possibility of NO regeneration processes to clean out the emissions equipment. I will edit my original post so nobody is confused. Wanted to answer a question and post my thoughts in the same one... below is the jist of what I said...

If what I was speaking of is true, the computer will tell the car to regen after "X" amount of miles if a regen was not completed/started. Fuel type does not matter, if the computer says after "X" miles regen, it will.

Again, I do NOT know if this is true with the new VW's. I stated this to make sure everyone was clear that I am new to the TDI. I just wanted to add to the discussion on the regeneration process with B100 vs. other fuel.

I am glued to the screen to watch the progress of your test Neurot. Thank you for contributing to the biofuel community, with your time and your resources.


P.S. I got about 14-18 mpg in my duramax in stock form with a DPF. Now I have seen as high as 24mpg highway with no DPF. Not bad for a 7800 lb. truck. And I think 24mpg is more than 2% of 18. Not trying to be a smart @$$ Just want to provide some information. PM me if you have problems with my posts so we can keep the threads clean...
 
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MBoni

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jvance said:
Okay, since other people are putting their money where their mouths are, I'll do the same.

I'll bet a brand new, crisp five dollar bill that a 2009 TDI running B100 and driven briskly will have ZERO oil dilution, due to ZERO post injection regeneration events.

This is big money here. I'll understand it if nobody wants to cover this bet.
I think you're half right, so I'll put up a $2 bill on the following speculation: there will be post injection events, but the frequency will be noticeably lower (30% reduction?). There will be oil dilution, but the reduced post injection events will keep it at a similar level to regular diesel. The bio-D will interfere with the oil additive package, but not enough to cause a significant shortening of overall engine life. Most everyone will eventually settle on the idea that B100 is ok in the '09 models, but recommend a 5k oil change interval to be safe.

How's that for an optimistic waffle position? :D
 

wesk1954

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TDIMeister said:
When a proper protocol is determined to detect a post-injection regeneration (or not) on a car with untempered, unaltered emission controls, I'm down for the bet.
I agree with you. The issue that I face in my own mind is whether or not the car will regenerate based on miles driven with or without the assumed sensors requesting the burn off.

The second assumption is that a burn off regeneration WILL cause oil delution, and that is again an 'unknown' factor on this engine, is it not?

Wes
 

jvance

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MBoni said:
I think you're half right, so I'll put up a $2 bill on the following speculation: there will be post injection events, but the frequency will be noticeably lower (30% reduction?). There will be oil dilution, but the reduced post injection events will keep it at a similar level to regular diesel. The bio-D will interfere with the oil additive package, but not enough to cause a significant shortening of overall engine life. Most everyone will eventually settle on the idea that B100 is ok in the '09 models, but recommend a 5k oil change interval to be safe.

How's that for an optimistic waffle position? :D
How dare you waffle towards a reasonable and thought out position. You must take one extreme stand or another, and never waver!

Oops - I'm sorry - we're not supposed to talk about politics here, right?
 

jvance

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capflya said:
If what I was speaking of is true, the computer will tell the car to regen after "X" amount of miles if a regen was not completed/started. Fuel type does not matter, if the computer says after "X" miles regen, it will.
Looks like I may lose my bet. Time to go buy some more copy paper.
 

shizzler

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MBoni said:
I think you're half right, so I'll put up a $2 bill on the following speculation: there will be post injection events, but the frequency will be noticeably lower (30% reduction?). There will be oil dilution, but the reduced post injection events will keep it at a similar level to regular diesel. The bio-D will interfere with the oil additive package, but not enough to cause a significant shortening of overall engine life. Most everyone will eventually settle on the idea that B100 is ok in the '09 models, but recommend a 5k oil change interval to be safe.

How's that for an optimistic waffle position? :D
Seconded! I'll even throw down a $3 bill.
 

nicklockard

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MBoni said:
I think you're half right, so I'll put up a $2 bill on the following speculation: there will be post injection events, but the frequency will be noticeably lower (30% reduction?). There will be oil dilution, but the reduced post injection events will keep it at a similar level to regular diesel. The bio-D will interfere with the oil additive package, but not enough to cause a significant shortening of overall engine life. Most everyone will eventually settle on the idea that B100 is ok in the '09 models, but recommend a 5k oil change interval to be safe.

How's that for an optimistic waffle position? :D

I'll take the opposite side of that carefully crafted waffle position :D I predict that what you say will be true if you state it like:

shamefully stolen said:
I think you're half right, so I'll put up a $2 bill on the following speculation: there will be post injection events, but the frequency will be noticeably lower (30% reduction?). There will be oil dilution, but the reduced post injection events will keep it at a similar level to regular diesel. The bio-D will interfere with the oil additive package, but not enough to cause a significant shortening of overall engine life. Most everyone will eventually settle on the idea that B35-B75 is ok in the '09 models, but recommend a 5k oil change interval to be safe.
 
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