DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

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alnmike

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I'm back to my phone so no fancy pictures of quoting :)
You said 10 amps for some reason stating goo to be the result.
I gaurantee that complete atomization doesn't occur in any injector.
I have priced an injector, they are expensive if they have to withstand 10 billion psi. When we know what psi the return line is, can find something to work. Hell, barely takes any pressure to get a good mist going in a grocery store for lettuce or whatever. That's using a bunch of holes and water. The injector in my system could be as simple as 2-10 pinpricks in the end of a whatever.
The half inch statement was going off your assumption that a solenoid would open a half inch. My point is that if it opens only an 8th inch, there's still plenty of room for pinholes and the spray.
Again, it goes to what is necessry atomization. The droplets have to have a diameter of X microns.

Your right, there's no way some wires could stand the temperature and vibration. VW must have used magic to get power and signals to/from the sensors all over that exhaust system. If you use grommits for instance, you can pass something through a round metal opening. The leak from a sealed hole would be immeasurable, specially since the flap itself creates negative pressure from the sealed box where the extra injector is.

I agree that the costs shouldn't be added to all cars. Let people do this mod after they buy this car and pay the entire cost. I do not think at all that this cost would be 1k.

This is all a moot point tillsomeone figures out what signal is used to demand a regen anyway. Once that is found, i might be the (can't spell guinni) pig and sell it myself.
What just boggles me is the statement of fact that it can't be done.
There is a real business opportunity especially for tuners here. If you buy a tune and the parts for running b100 only cost X more (cost), then you will definately sell more tunes.
 

darkscout

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Your injectors will still gum. They're going to be sitting nice and hot with stagnant fuel sitting there for a few hundred miles.
 

alnmike

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That would be the problem then. Earlier you mentioned a pot and the gunk diesel leaves behind. If in a sealed container, with no air, does diesel still turn to gunk when heated?

If it does, then I don't see a way that doesn't get complicated quick or use more fuel than needed. With no way for diesel to evaporate, don't see why it would gum up. But I do not know.
 

NoSmoke

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darkscout said:
Your injectors will still gum. They're going to be sitting nice and hot with stagnant fuel sitting there for a few hundred miles.
So, if that is an issue, give an extra squirt every one hundred miles or whatever interval is required to prevent gumming. The additional fuel consumption would be negligible.
 

whitedog

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The only thing I want now is for Red Green to test some Biodiesel. Now that jason has finished his testing, the rest of this thread is worth Chrysler stock now.
 

darkscout

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NoSmoke said:
So, if that is an issue, give an extra squirt every one hundred miles or whatever interval is required to prevent gumming. The additional fuel consumption would be negligible.
You should patent that. Because Detroit Diesel and Cummins have been trying to solve that problem for 4-5 years.

alnmike said:
That would be the problem then. Earlier you mentioned a pot and the gunk diesel leaves behind. If in a sealed container, with no air, does diesel still turn to gunk when heated?
Does water boil in a pressure cooker? Does water vaporize in brake lines and make them squishy?
 

Harvieux

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UFO said:
This has been posted already, and says exactly how I summed it up, in layman's terms. It costs more to accommodate biodiesel, so screw it. Not a very progressive attitude.

And alnmike, your idea is absolutely right on that it can work; it is the obvious answer to accommodate biodiesel, but it probably adds another $50 to the cost of the vehicle. Too bad VWAG does not recognize the value of branding their vehicles B100 compatible. It would more than offset the extra regen equipment cost, even if most people can't or don't use it. Look at GM and all that bs about "flexfuel", same thing.
You're right, UFO. My specific bullet point reasons for VW not implementing a bioD compatible system has been posted many times but, apparently not absorbed, eh? Not that much of any other facts I posted have either but *** do I know? :rolleyes:

I'll tell you what. If either you or I ever become a big enough fish for VWAG to where we would be instrumental in a decision of whether to implement or not based on experience or sound business sense and not blind enthusiam, I would digress. Your comment in bold above really says it all, eh? ;) Later!
 

conejo_a_cuatro

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It's funny, this is looking like the conversation I had with my wife several years back:
Me: Yeah, so these people drop a japanese imported diesel engine in, and voila, a diesel 4runner
Wife: "Drop it in", huh?
Me: Well... yeah. I mean I couldn't do it.
Wife: Do you know anyone that could? Have you ever met, in person, anyone that could?
Me: Umm, no.

Hence the TDI Golf outside our apartment.

I do have one question though, at the risk of being shot down and humiliated: Wasn't there a line of Passats that had a 5th injector in the exhaust stream somewhere, or did I make that up? I seem to remember talk about people disabling it for better fuel economy... could something like that work?

Like this:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/a3b4/5thinj.htm
 

nicklockard

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conejo_a_cuatro said:
It's funny, this is looking like the conversation I had with my wife several years back:
Me: Yeah, so these people drop a japanese imported diesel engine in, and voila, a diesel 4runner
Wife: "Drop it in", huh?
Me: Well... yeah. I mean I couldn't do it.
Wife: Do you know anyone that could? Have you ever met, in person, anyone that could?
Me: Umm, no.

Hence the TDI Golf outside our apartment.

I do have one question though, at the risk of being shot down and humiliated: Wasn't there a line of Passats that had a 5th injector in the exhaust stream somewhere, or did I make that up? I seem to remember talk about people disabling it for better fuel economy... could something like that work?

Like this:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/a3b4/5thinj.htm
Yes, but IIRC, that 5th injector was notorious for leaking, developing pinhole leaks, bursting, rusting, rotting, etcetera. It was a real PITA and a lot of owners disabled them for safety.
 

DPM

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alnmike, any thoughts on what pressure you'll need for whatever injectors you think you'll use? Return line pressure? Exhaust pressure? Pressure differential needed to achieve flow/ atomisation?
Remember that normal diesel injectors are cooled by the coolant in the cylinder head as well as leakage flow of diesel through them. EGTs (and exhaust temps, if sustained) are 1300f, not 200f.

Aint going to work.
 

alnmike

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darkscout said:
You should patent that. Because Detroit Diesel and Cummins have been trying to solve that problem for 4-5 years.
Does water boil in a pressure cooker? Does water vaporize in brake lines and make them squishy?
For a pressure cooker, id have to see the TvP diagrams. For brake lines, do the lines get flushed every once and a while?
Back to my original question because I honestly do not know, does diesel fuel evaporate when theres no place for the vapors to go? Maybe not evaporate, gum up when heated.


DPM said:
alnmike, any thoughts on what pressure you'll need for whatever injectors you think you'll use? Return line pressure? Exhaust pressure? Pressure differential needed to achieve flow/ atomisation?
Remember that normal diesel injectors are cooled by the coolant in the cylinder head as well as leakage flow of diesel through them. EGTs (and exhaust temps, if sustained) are 1300f, not 200f.
Aint going to work.
I dont know what the pressures are in either instance. I know that theres alot of pressure coming out of the cylinders, the dpf and turbo dont help that, but its also high flow, and things flowing faster are lower pressures than things flowing slower, but thats mass rate of flow, and were talking about two different substances. So, I dont know.
I was thinking maybe a max sustained temp of 400 degrees F or so, since nothings actually inside the exhaust until the injector starts its spraying (cooling).
The injectors arent always spraying, and they have to deal with higher temps than the EGT shows, or are they in fact sorrounded by water channels? In either case, the tips face much higher temps.
Depending on the space around this section, might have to throw a heat sink on there too, passive of course.



Will my system work as it is now? Of course not, I dont have the knowledge. Im conducting a thought experiment and hopefully someone gets a good idea from this and does make something that works. If it even half works, the manufacturers might get a sniff and play with it themselves.
Id much rather have a diesel vehicle than a battery one at this stage, and to continue, we need more renewable fuels, none of this B5 only crap.
Everything starts somewhere, people build on that, and a few generations of ideas later, you have a finished product.

As complicated as this may seem, its 1 part really, 1 thing to install, 1 thing to buy to put on. Nothing like extra tanks and running wires and coolant and ect. like for a greasecar.
Is the trouble of greasecar worth it? For alot of people, yes. If I had the time/money to get an older diesel and the new CR< id do it in a heartbeat. I like tinkering.
 

LurkerMike

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OMG! This is giving me a headache!

It would be far easier and more reliable to install a second fuel tank, even a gallon would do, with a lift pump.

Then install a fuel line "Y" fuel selector solenoid that switches between the fuel tanks prior to the main rails pump.

Fuel D2 only in the small added tank.

Have Jeff program the ECU to switch the fuel selector solenoid over to the small D2 tank in enough time prior to commencing with the DPF to purge the bio from the fuel rails. Allow the normal DPF cycle to complete on D2 and then have the ECU switch the fuel selector solenoid back to the main bio tank. You will purge some D2 back to the main tank, but with no fuel return lines on the small tank, it should never get contaminated with bio.

For added safety, tie a low fuel sensor into the small tank and have it disable the engine should the D2 run low to prevent sucking air when you forget to fill the D2 tank.

Now I fully realize what a PITA this would be to construct. But in my defense, it could be done without having to develop some NASA grade components or having to steal some retired exotic SR71 parts to make it work.
 

Mike_M

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Neurot said:
So, the conclusion: VW has built a system that is simply not compatible with high-blend biodiesel.
And that's the money shot. I will not be purchasing a new TDI, or any other vehicle based on this technology. I hope that other manufacturers will be using different technology, even if that means swapping urea canisters every so often.

Thank you so much, Neurot. Especially so for risking your own investment on this experiment and following through on the study necessary to enlighten us on where this technology is at, and where it needs to be (discarded) for us to run B99/100.

I guess maybe it's time to investigate electric cars. Since I'm having solar put on the house anyway, it will be a much cleaner fill.

I'll still be around, though, until my Jetta finally gives up the ghost (God knows when that'll be) and until I figure that getting another pre-PD isn't worth the effort anymore.

-Mike
 

Mike_M

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vwrobert51 said:
just like we perdicted, no one wanted to listen when we in the know stated that bio is not to be used in 2009 TDIS. well now its been proven! thanks harvieux, for your support. and others on this side of the issue. now on with the show.
That's because all you stated, and all you've ever stated at any time biodiesel is brought up, is "OMG it'll ruin your engine". I highly respect your VW knowledge, Robert, but you've been rabidly anti-biodiesel since long before the common rails came out, and the common rails are the first time you've been right that it's just incompatible.

Keep pronouncing doom long enough, and you'll eventually be right.
 

Drivbiwire

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GTL and Bio-GTL work perfectly in the 2009 TDI, Whats the fuss about? Just because you can't brew your own fuel and avoid road taxes isn't a reason to say the 2009 isn't for you. The 2009 IS designed to run on the perfect renewable fuel that doesn't compete with food crops!

DB
 

Neurot

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DBW - how does my used fryer oil biodiesel compete with food crops?

And where do I get Bio-GTL fuel today? Perhaps the fuss is about these fuels being unavailable...? It sounds like you're proposing people buy a 2009 Jetta TDI in order to run a fuel that barely exists today. To quote someone mocking me for using B100 in the Jetta - "I wish I had $25,000 to throw away" while waiting for commercial availability of Bio-GTL fuel.

I'd gladly support the use of these fuels, and expect that "renewable diesel" as it's called, will eventually play an important role. However, the use of co-processed renewable diesel does not increase our nation's refining capacity, while biodiesel does. So I would only support the creation of NEW production facilities to create these types of products. Please share any links you have about where those products are in their development lifecycle and when we may be able to take advantage of them.

Promoting the use of future biomass based fuels is a fantastic concept - but provide more context when making such statements so that we can all benefit.
 

UFO

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Drivbiwire said:
GTL and Bio-GTL work perfectly in the 2009 TDI, Whats the fuss about? Just because you can't brew your own fuel and avoid road taxes isn't a reason to say the 2009 isn't for you. The 2009 IS designed to run on the perfect renewable fuel that doesn't compete with food crops!

DB
How convenient, diesel fuel from coal performs like petroleum diesel, and only dumps twice the pollution into the atmosphere. And they make it in Qatar.

BTW, Jatropha and algae biodiesels don't "compete with food crops" at all. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, eh? Want energy independence? Let's keep all our options open.
 

tdisky

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Neurot said:
DBW - how does my used fryer oil biodiesel compete with food crops?

And where do I get Bio-GTL fuel today? Perhaps the fuss is about these fuels being unavailable...? It sounds like you're proposing people buy a 2009 Jetta TDI in order to run a fuel that barely exists today. To quote someone mocking me for using B100 in the Jetta - "I wish I had $25,000 to throw away" while waiting for commercial availability of Bio-GTL fuel.

I'd gladly support the use of these fuels, and expect that "renewable diesel" as it's called, will eventually play an important role. However, the use of co-processed renewable diesel does not increase our nation's refining capacity, while biodiesel does. So I would only support the creation of NEW production facilities to create these types of products. Please share any links you have about where those products are in their development lifecycle and when we may be able to take advantage of them.

Promoting the use of future biomass based fuels is a fantastic concept - but provide more context when making such statements so that we can all benefit.
Neurot,

We (well, most of us) really appreciate your effort and risk-taking.

If I can get what I want for my PD, I'm getting an 09 and plan on gradually increasing the biodiesel blend up to B20. I'm thinking a Blackstone test every 5,000 miles, more if warranted.

DBW, you can bet I'm going to take your break-in procedures to heart again (running B5), but not your views regarding biodiesel in general. However, thanks for your great experience and advice.

Neurot, thanks again. Your experiment was admirable.
 

conejo_a_cuatro

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Gotta agree with Neurot on this one. Waste Vegetable Oil bio does not compete with food crops. Its ability to provide a large-scale solution to fuel needs is highly dubious, but on a small level, it seems the best option right now. I agree that virgin oil bio is extremely problematic, in Seattle, much of the feedstock comes from Asia on petrodiesel barges. But in Oregon, Syquential claims that the majority of their feedstock is from local food manufacturers.

Sure, there are other options in the future, Algae is one that I personally look forward to, but today, if you want to run a fuel that is not petro-based, what are your options? I can get a US gas-guzzler that I can run on inefficient Ethanol that only comes from food crops, or I can keep my TDI, which is fun to drive, gets great fuel economy, and runs on readily available, used veggie oil- based biodiesel, made to ASTM standards. Now, option 2 is gone for the foreseeable future. I think, at least in the Northwest, ALH VW's are going to maintain their unreasonable pricing for the near future. Especially once people start to get burned by things like this:

2009 Salsa Red Jetta TDI - $28500 (Olympia)
Reply to: xxx@craigslist.org [?]
Date: 2009-02-16, 11:09PM PST
2009 Salsa Red VW Jetta TDI. 11,000 miles, perfect condition, black leather interior, automatic/tiptronic transmission, 6 disk cd-changer, custom moonroof. GREEN AND FUEL EFFICIENT CAR. Can run on biodiesel. E-mail for more info or for pictures.
 

rodneyh1

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MethylEster said:
Does anyone know if a ASTM lubricating wear test has been done with various amounts of biodiesel dilution ?

At what level of dilution does an increase in wear become a concern ?

Knowing the above you could intelligently adjust your oil change interval to avoid any lubrication problems.

I believe this would apply the KISS principle to this whole matter.

Also a valid testing procedure would be needed to determine exactly what the % of biodiesel is truly in the engine oil.
The research I have seen shows no difference in wear between BD and ULSD for the same level of dilution. Here's one paper that mentions this. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2007/session5/deer07_sappok.pdf

Essentially, the wear is a function of viscosity, and viscosity is a function of fuel dilution. For every percent of fuel in the oil, the viscosity of the oil goes down by about 3%. So it only takes a small amount of fuel in the oil to drive the viscosity out of spec (presumably leading to increased wear). The problem is that for BD, there will be a higher fuel dilution.
 

MethylEster

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Ok, finally found some published 4 ball wear rates on a 5% dilution of the lube oil comparing ULSD and B100. Conclusion at this dilution is there is no difference in the wear rate.

www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2007/session5/deer07_sappok.pdf


Anyone have any wear data for higher fuel dilution %'s ?????

Being an Engineer I hate speculation. Show me the data to support your argument.
 

MethylEster

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rodneyh1,

For some reason your post wasn't up yet when I sited the same paper.

Thanks for following up to my earlier post.
 

mannytranny

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I attended a biodiesel + engine oil seminar at the NBB conference this year. Learned a lot about BD, oil and emissions systems.

From what I gathered, two problem occur with biodiesel and engines.

1. Post injection systems dilute the oil with fuel. Increased wear may or may not occur. It depends on the engine, oil, duty cycle and dilution levels.

2. Motor oils have additive packages in their formulas intended to neutralize harmful compounds in the oil. The compounds created by biodiesel are somewhat different than those created by dino diesel. Problems can occur, but as stated above, it depends. Best bet is to change the oil at a shorter drain interval...Tests at the seminar showed increased wear starting at about 200 hours of oil use. Of course that could mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Tests were done on B20....( eek )
 

Neurot

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As a postscript to this thread, a friend of mine took over the payments for the Jetta. I am now back to my 2004 Golf TDI, happily sipping B100 made from used fryer oil, and an occasional tank of veggie oil with my customized Greasecar system.
Happy trails...
 

ronbros

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I was just thinkin! if we modifiy the fuel system, why not modify the exhaust system also!! do away with the DPF,,EGR,, the tricky thing would be modding the computor.
when a lot of us modify our vehicles ,they are at the end of warrenty anyway.
some one who knows computor interfacing,, and diesel engine requirments, could go into car computor and use just the engine running maps, and render all the save-the-world stuff, or delete, so as it would just start the engine and run it properly.
yrs back gas car guys had these same probs. with electronic fuel injection,, well today them guys can make them computors do everything but talk(some actually can,,like(fuel consumption rate is now at 20%,at 65mph) floor the pedal,(fuel consumption rate is now at 80% at 95mph)

a girls voice,yeah! i would like that.HEY! might as well make the driving fun.

if big brother makes EVERYTHING illegal, i have no idea what you can do.

THX Ron
 

ronbros

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I see that Texas would like to become a free state, maybe loosen up some of the regulations that SLOWLY STRANGLES IT SELF.

Ron
 

darkscout

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ronbros said:
some one who knows computor interfacing,, and diesel engine requirments, could go into car computor and use just the engine running maps, and render all the save-the-world stuff, or delete, so as it would just start the engine and run it properly.
I haz TDI but I does not know what computor is? Can u helpz?
 

UFO

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ronbros said:
I see that Texas would like to become a free state, maybe loosen up some of the regulations that SLOWLY STRANGLES IT SELF.

Ron
Or maybe 5 states???? ;) :rolleyes:
 
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