DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

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Neurot

Vendor
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI
I took delivery of my 2009 Jetta TDI (base model, manual transmission) last week. I bought it with the express purpose of using B100 exclusively. The dealer (Charles Maund VW in Austin, TX) immediately said I would void my warranty. After some verbal back and forth, I wound up emailing them some information about the Magnuson Voss Act, including a letter from the Oregon Auto Dealers Association regarding the use of biodiesel (found here). I don't know if that warmed them up to my plan, or they just wanted to sell another Jetta, but I wound up getting my ordered vehicle just like I wanted it, in the color I wanted, and 2 months ahead of what was quoted initially!

After quite a few thoughtful replies on my plans, today was the day to get started.
I drove 378 miles on the initial tank of diesel (poor average of 28.8MPG), and ran it until it had 5 miles remaining on the tank (according to the display). Then I put in 16.1 gallons of pure biodiesel, made from used cooking oil, produced to conform to the ASTM specification D6751. I have a certificate of analysis from the producer, New Energy Fuels in Houston, did my own quality tests (clear and bright, methanol, water, and phlip), and have sold 5000 gallons from the same batch, from the same tank, even some just before my fillup. So I have every reason to believe that my results will be indicative of an average B100 user in the new TDI platform. There may be some variability based on the feedstock and climate it is used in, but should not be much. Also, October 1st is the day that the new ASTM specifications take effect, which should increase the quality even further (new "cold soak" test, oxidative stability, and other refinements).
After filling up to *completely* full, I ran the engine for awhile, rev'ed it a bit (but not exceeding the 3500 rpm level due to the break-in period). It ran normally, then I drove it the 8 miles home. Not the most comprehensive test, but enough to breathe a little easier. There was no immediate loss in power or fuel economy noticeable, no check engine light, etc.
I will keep this thread open for periodic updates. PLEASE follow these simple rules before replying to this thread:
Do not post about how I'm going to void the warranty, ruin the engine, destroy the DPF, or anything else stupid and inflammatory. Please do post any specific concerns you have, things to look out for, tests you recommend (and vendors to send samples to), etc. If you have specific negative things to say, like "I heard that you may have to change your oil more often", cite references. If you read somewhere that it will do something bad, go research it and come back.
If you don't like biodiesel, don't think it has a place in modern cars, or have any other "feelings" about biofuels in general, take it somewhere else. There are enough forums even on TDIclub to debate the merits of growing crops for fuel or net energy balance.
If someone does start in with nonsense, don't take the bait!
Full Disclosure - I run a business selling biodiesel. I WANT this to work. I am not exactly a neutral scientist recording data and coming to a hypothesis. However, if something doesn't go the way I hope it will, this information could be extremely valuable for the future of biodiesel. I will report my results, and hope that others will find this experiment useful.
Current test plan:
Drive it like an old lady for the remainder of the break-in period (probably 2 tanks).
At 1000 miles, take an oil sample and send it off to Blackstone (unless there's a better place - I could use some help on this one).
After 1500 miles, take it to the dealer for a courtesy check (their suggestion)
At each 1000 mile increment, repeat oil sample.
Depending on results, modify or abandon experiment, or continue as planned.
Hope to get a few suggestions and hints, but not spawn a giant free-for-all conversation. Nobody likes threads that drag out for dozens of pages, so please keep it brief.
Thanks for all the participation in my previous post and I'm looking forward to more discussion!
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Thanks for a great set of clear ground rules. I hope we can all follow them and learn what we can from you, the voluntary guinea pig.

I second the recommendaton that you research posts and threads by member Drivbiwire on how to best properly break in your Tdi. FWIK, it helps to really romp on it after the initial baby'ing period to help seat the compression rings in. Links were provided above by jvance.
 

highender

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Location
Northern California
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI
following a set recommended break in protocol for your new diesel is advisable, in my opinion.

drivbiwire's "how to" is a good one.


FWIW, Only thing I would do different, is the usage of minor amounts of fuel additives....like Stanadyne or startron or power service, to improve combustion.

I use them regularly in minor amounts with the B100, for my 2002 jetta tdi.


take care, and wish you the best. Please keep us updated...:)
 

philngrayce

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
Location
Connecticut
TDI
'02 Jetta, '06 Jetta, Both Gone '13 Leaf, Gone Liberty CRD, Subaru Forrester and MB300SD
Thank you very much for taking the plunge.

Perhaps you could find someone in the area (or on this forum) with a similar new vehicle, running it on petro diesel. If you could also test their oil at 1,000 mile intervals (probably at your expense), it might provide a useful comparison.

I have found Blackstone to be very good, and very easy to talk to. Let them know what you are doing and I think they will monitor it especially closely.
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
Good luck , make sure you get regular oil analysis's to watch out for BD crankcase oil contamination . That is what VW claims is the issue with high $ BD use in this car .

Again Goood Luck
 

maktas

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Location
Windsor, ON Canada
TDI
2005 Passat TDI
Jason,

Best of Luck... all of us using bio-d or want to in the future will follow this thread closely and again, thanks for your willingness to do this. I guess you will make history! (good or bad...hopefully good)
 

rodneyh1

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2009 Jetta
I picked up my 2009 Jetta a couple weeks ago. I am also running B99 that is mfg'd by SeQuential and sold at a local gas station. I'll have to swith to approx. B75 for the winter pretty soon. No plans for any kind of testing what-so-ever. 1st tank from the dealer was petrol diesel, and I got 38.7 mpg with about 75% highway / 25% city. Ran great on that. Switched over about 300 miles ago and have seen no difference. Will keep posting periodically.

Rod
 

Windjammer

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Location
Cinti, OH
TDI
MK4 & Mk5
When will we call this experiment a success? It's easy to spot a failure, but what does success look like? 300k miles & no fuel or exhaust problems?
 

Neurot

Vendor
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI
Thanks Rod! Glad to know someone else out there is already ahead of the curve.
As for success, it's more about how MUCH success will it take for an individual reader of these posts to decide they will be comfortable using B100 in their 09 TDI. I suspect some will jump in already, having heard 300 miles on a tank with no CEL or adverse affect. Others may wait 5k miles, or wait to hear UOA results. Some will never be satisfied...but that crowd is not really the audience I'm going for :)
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Aug 15, 1998
Location
Whittier,CA-USA
TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
Is it just me, or do I see a big difference in the approach of this experiment between Neurot and Rod? :rolleyes: Later!
 

Zero10

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Location
Calgary, AB
TDI
05 Golf TDI PD, Tiptronic
*subscribes to thread* Should make for an interesting read. Please keep us all posted.

I entirely agree that the B5 limit implemented by dealerships is total BS (funny how B5 looks like BS...) but I don't really know where the safe upper limit is. It is very useful to see people like you pushing the limits. Adding UOA's to the experiment helps to keep all of the relevant data monitored and I'm very interested to see how this goes! :)
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
obviously Neurot is doing more instrumented testing because he has an interest in the outcome. Still, two data points are better than one, and I'm sure there will be more.
 

p_ferlow

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Location
W. Vancouver, BC Canada
TDI
09' Jetta TDI Revo tune 6spd, 01' F250 7.3L "tuned"
Just ordered my 09' Jetta TDI. VERY interested in data from your experiment. Thanks for doing this for the rest of the community.

I'll be processing my own biodiesel in less than 2 months. Most will go into my F250 7.3L powerstroke. I usually run about B40-B50 in it no problems.

VW dealer joked "you'll be fine running up to B20 in the new TDI, if you have any sort of warranty problem say nothing, fill up with reg diesel and get it fixed". LOL
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2006 VW Jetta TDI
That dealers joke ought to be considered gospel for anyone running B100.

What the mechanic can't smell can gouge you. Make it stink and you'll be treated fairly.
 

The Trouts

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2001
Location
Pittsboro, NC
TDI
was Bio-Pod <sniff>
TNG Pioneer...

Well done Jason.

I remember back in 2000 when my buddy Shaun and I plunked down about $20k each to run our TDI's on B100 even though VW said anything over 0% would void our warranty, and many on this forum decided we were nuts.

Our cars both have over 100k miles on them now...

Then when the PD platform came out, Shaun bought one immediately and filled it up with B100. Again, naysayers came out in droves to pronounce him crazy to run B100 in the 2004 Beetle since the injection pressures were so much higher.

His 2004 Beetle and about 10 more PD's in his rental fleet have thousands of B100 (now B99.9) miles on them.

So I am cheering you on, for putting your money where your heart (and brain) is, and bet you'll be just fine. The DPF data I saw as part of the National Biofuels Energy Lab I was associated with last year indicated that biodiesel use actually made a positive impact on the function of the DPF.

We'll see...

Nicely done.

Bob in Moncure
 
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Zlartibartfast

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Location
Deep in the Heart of Texas
TDI
SOLD 2009 Jetta Sportwagen
Jason, Go Dog Go!

This is the most interesting thread (for me) running in the forum right now.

I have a question, a little off topic - how did you get a TDI from Maund so quickly!? (was it quick? I don't remember you saying how long ago you ordered, just that your intial thread began 08/01).

I was in there about 08/15 and got myself on their waiting list - #16 in line for a sportwagon.

At that time they told me VOA would not warranty using any percentage of bio, but clearly they didn't know all that much about it....

Junior's is just down the street from my house - I noticed their price on B100 went down to $4.49/gallon.

Cool, Daddy O....
 

Tarbe

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
USA
TDI
Touareg and Sportwagon Sold to VW
UOA every 1000 miles is gonna really cost some coin.

I have to believe you could cut that frequency in half without really sacrificing anything. You will get bored when subsequent UOAs look essentially like the previous!

Just my $0.02


Tim
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The purpose of the original poster is to find out whether there are any issues with running biodiesel in this engine. For that purpose ... frequent oil samples are part of the deal if you want to do it properly. The frequency can be adjusted later if patterns (or lack of) become apparent. Cost of doing business.
 

SBAtdijetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Houston, TX
TDI
'10 Jetta Cup 6spd, '02 Jetta Auto
GoFaster said:
The purpose of the original poster is to find out whether there are any issues with running biodiesel in this engine. For that purpose ... frequent oil samples are part of the deal if you want to do it properly. The frequency can be adjusted later if patterns (or lack of) become apparent. Cost of doing business.
My only thought there is with such frequent UOA's you will be draining quite a bit of oil over time or the total normal OCI (first 5k then 10k), and always replacing it with new oil. Thus the testing method if only slightly still helps its own results by constantly adding fresh oil. Have you considered that?

Thoughts? How large will your samples be, how much/what does it take to get a good sample? 8oz +/-? Hopefully you will take the samples very diligently according to the instructions and get an accurate sample each time. I also think that a UOA every 2k would be fine, and skew your results 1/2 as much...

Anyway thanks for doing this! Very interesting :cool:
 
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kwantam

Active member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2009 Jetta soon!
philngrayce said:
Perhaps you could find someone in the area (or on this forum) with a similar new vehicle, running it on petro diesel. If you could also test their oil at 1,000 mile intervals (probably at your expense), it might provide a useful comparison.

I have found Blackstone to be very good, and very easy to talk to. Let them know what you are doing and I think they will monitor it especially closely.
I'm in the area and willing to help out if it's desired. I've got just about 800 miles on my car now and will be running 100% petroleum diesel for the forseeable future. Full disclosure, I added Power Service to my current tank, which has 100 miles on it. I'm willing to cut that out for future tanks if necessary.

Seconding Blackstone labs; in my experience they are excellent.
 

kwantam

Active member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Location
Austin, TX
TDI
2009 Jetta soon!
Sorry for the double reply, but would you be able to do compression tests when you take oil samples? It would be interesting to compare compression numbers for break-in on B100 vs. petroleum.
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Aug 15, 1998
Location
Whittier,CA-USA
TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
GoFaster said:
obviously Neurot is doing more instrumented testing because he has an interest in the outcome. Still, two data points are better than one, and I'm sure there will be more.
Brian, With all due respect, Neurot is performing this test/experiment in a very responsible manner. Rod, on the other hand, IMO, reminds me of one of those tunnel visioned persons who you recently referred to as ones who would do it anyway, regardless, eh? (Not meant in any way as a personal attack but, more as a reality check). HTF can we consider Rod's escapade a data point? :rolleyes: Later!
 
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Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Aug 15, 1998
Location
Whittier,CA-USA
TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
SBAtdijetta said:
My only thought there is with such frequent UOA's you will be draining quite a bit of oil over time or the total normal OCI (first 5k then 10k), and always replacing it with new oil. Thus the testing method if only slightly still helps its own results by constantly adding fresh oil. Have you considered that?

Thoughts? How large will your samples be, how much/what does it take to get a good sample? 8oz +/-? Hopefully you will take the samples very diligently according to the instructions and get an accurate sample each time. I also think that a UOA every 2k would be fine, and skew your results 1/2 as much...

Anyway thanks for doing this! Very interesting :cool:
Couldn't the sample be drawn with one of those dip stick tube hand vacuum pumps with the sample jar attached? Later!
 

barshnik

Veteran Member
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Jul 14, 2008
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2013 Passat SE w/roof, nav
Harvieux said:
Brian, With all due respect, Neurot is performing this test/experiment in a very responsible manner. Rod, on the other hand, IMO, reminds me of one of those tunnel visioned persons who you recently referred to as ones who would do it anyway, regardless, eh? (Not meant in any way as a personal attack but, more as a reality check). HTF can we consider Rod's escapade a data point? :rolleyes: Later!
The only difference I see is one doing oil checks, the other saying 'to heck with it' and going for it. Why is it any less of a valid data point? I'm hoping for the best for both of them, and thank them both equally. I'll be watching this closely, like many others.

John F
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
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Location
Whittier,CA-USA
TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
Tarbe said:
UOA every 1000 miles is gonna really cost some coin.

I have to believe you could cut that frequency in half without really sacrificing anything. You will get bored when subsequent UOAs look essentially like the previous!

Just my $0.02

Tim
Your suggestion may be correct however, we must also consider taking the biodieselmagazine's post-injection fuel dilution writings as a possible no no until we can accumulate enough data to assure that a $25K+ investment isn't wasted due only to blind ambition. Later!
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
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Location
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TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
barshnik said:
The only difference I see is one doing oil checks, the other saying 'to heck with it' and going for it. Why is it any less of a valid data point? I'm hoping for the best for both of them, and thank them both equally. I'll be watching this closely, like many others.

John F
Hi John, Could you please explain to me how Rod's plan is going to provide us with any true insight? Do you think that just because the car starts and runs after 10K, 20K, 50K, 75K or even 100K that everything will be honky dory? Will you base your decision on such possible blind enthusiam? I realize that some will go ahead and jump right in head first and I truly do not wish the worst however, I will play devil's advocate until I am convinced otherwise because way too many credible technical writings suggest otherwise. Later!
 
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