Dieselgate: Volkswagen to Spend Up to $14.7 Billion to Settle ...

[fan of fanboys]

I've seen a couple others posting in this thread about the "cluelessness" of VW dealers they've been to, in regard to the whole Dieselgate issue.
I myself encountered this - when I took my car in for it's 10,000 mile servicing in January, I talked with the salesman who sold me my car, and he seemed completely in the dark. When I returned in March to get my $500 gift card and $500 VW credit (which I used to buy window air deflectors and roof rails), he was still at a loss.
Has anyone here encountered a dealer who seemed better informed?
My wife has also told me, that as a part of the settlement, VW is forbidden to offer any special deals contingent on you taking either settlement - although I haven't seen that anywhere else, but she's more of a read a 40+ page settlement type of person than I am. Has anyone else heard/read that anywhere?

my experience is limited but the dealership in Columbia, SC I went to I spoked to the manager and he knew about the dates and such. We chatted for just a few minutes about what he would do, etc. He did not push or say anything to me about buying another VW. Just asked if I liked the car (I purchased new from them) and that if it made financial sense he would do the buyback too

I was in there to have the value of my car adjusted for my annual state taxes have to pay so I did not speak to any salesmen

 

[fan of fanboys]

For the first sine since last year though I have had a few people ask me about my car and the settlement

This past weekend I had 2 diff people I know ask me if my car was apart of the settlement and what I planned to do.

 

[Lobo56]

It's been brought up by others, but just as a reminder, if your car is totaled before you do a buyback or fix, they won't reimburse you for the NADA value, but they will still give you the compensation. Insurance companies will likely pay very close to the NADA value, so you won't lose everything.

Example - if september 2015 NADA 18,000 and current NADA 14,500.

Ins pays 14,500 and VW pays 20% of 18,000 plus ~$3k or $6,600, so you'd get $21,100.

Not as good as the $24, 600 you'd have gotten, but better than it would otherwise have been. You always lose if your car is totaled, whether you're going to get a buyback or not.

If you can afford it, buy a different new car, park the VW, and then when the other car gets totaled you'll get screwed over by insurance company on that car instead of the VW.

:-(

Parked the Jetta In May put it on storage insurance and bit the bullet and bought a 328d.

 

[PaulN]

Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?

You have three choices.

1.) Take part in the Class Action Settlement and sell your car back to VW. Get NADA clean trade + restitution.
2.) Take part in the Class Action Settlement and have VW fix your car. Get restitution.
3.) Opt out of the Class Action. Get nothing, unless you sue on your own.

That is the accepted wisdom, but even if strictly true, you must see that those three choices DO NOT logically address my question, the absolute first question that should be on everyone's mind - Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?

Every instance where the settlement is the topic should be clarifying right up front whether we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution. I have yet to see this done.

I know that the news stories and people here are making assumptions based on reading other news stories and other people, etc. that owner restitution must be tied to accepting an option... but I have NOT FOUND that stipulation in the settlement documents.

I have yet to find where:

- it is stated clearly that the restitution is dependent on accepting the options

- that the restitution is not forthcoming unless an option is accepted

- whether the claim process requires choosing an option

- whether declining the options in the claim process forces the opt out

These are the very kind of questions that most need to be clarified, and the documents and related exhibits seem purposely avoiding these questions or perhaps have hidden the answers somewhere. The documents are very carefully crafted things, every word is critical... a lot of effort went into creating them and it appears quite a bit of effort went into making sure the questions I'm asking would be difficult to answer.

Now why would the clear answer to the single most important simple question (Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?) be avoided within the hundreds of comprehensive pages of these documents?

Restating the common assumptions is not useful; I need to see confirming references to the documents in order to know.

If anyone has found the document texts that address this, please let me know. I am kind of shocked that no one else is asking this question...

 

[kjclow]

From how I read it you have three options, depending on where you live.
Option 1 - take the buyback with resitution included
Option 2- get the fix and restitution
Option 3 - Do nothing and get nothing

I guess an option 4 would be to sue VW on your own.

As for the current proposal, we will probably turn the wife's Golf in and use the money to pay off school loans. Keep the JSW until at least 2018 and revisit the money on the table at that time. The only possible difference would be if VW offers some craz incentive to turn in the JSW towards a new diesel GSW.

 

[DanB36]

Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?

Yes, we do. Or, more precisely, VW is only required to pay us if we choose one of the two options. To prove that from the court documents, look at it this way: VW is required to buy back the car, if you choose to have them do that, at a specified amount. They are required to fix the car, if there's an approved fix and you choose to have them do that, and pay you a specified amount. That's it. Nothing in the documents as they currently exist requires them to pay anything to an individual customer otherwise. I guess they still could pay something, but there's no requirement that they do so.

To confirm (or disprove) this, you'd want to find in one of the consent decrees, or the class action settlement agreement, a requirement that VW pay something to an Eligible Owner who does not elect either the buyback or the fix. I've been through the two consent decrees, and I don't see any such thing, but it's certainly possible I've missed something. I haven't been through the entire settlement agreement, but what I have read through is consistent with the two consent decrees. If you find such a requirement, you will have disproved my analysis above. If you don't (and I don't think you will), that will confirm it.

Now why would the clear answer to the single most important simple question (Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?) be avoided within the hundreds of comprehensive pages of these documents?

I don't see that anything is hidden. In fact, I don't see how it could be much clearer. If you sell the car back, you get money. If you get it fixed, you get money (unless you opt out of the class, in which case you can still get the fix, but won't get any money). If you sold the car between 9/18 and 6/28, you get some money. There are provisions related to leases that I haven't paid much attention to since my cars aren't leased. The circumstances under which a customer gets money are pretty clearly defined; if you don't fall into one of them, you don't get money. I guess the documents could describe the situations where a customer would not get money, but that would make them much longer ("Owning a black cat with six toes does not make a customer eligible for compensation.")

 

[CraziFuzzy]

That is the accepted wisdom, but even if strictly true, you must see that those three choices DO NOT logically address my question, the absolute first question that should be on everyone's mind - Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?
Every instance where the settlement is the topic should be clarifying right up front whether we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution. I have yet to see this done.
I know that the news stories and people here are making assumptions based on reading other news stories and other people, etc. that owner restitution must be tied to accepting an option... but I have NOT FOUND that stipulation in the settlement documents.
I have yet to find where:
- it is stated clearly that the restitution is dependent on accepting the options
- that the restitution is not forthcoming unless an option is accepted
- whether the claim process requires choosing an option
- whether declining the options in the claim process forces the opt out
These are the very kind of questions that most need to be clarified, and the documents and related exhibits seem purposely avoiding these questions or perhaps have hidden the answers somewhere. The documents are very carefully crafted things, every word is critical... a lot of effort went into creating them and it appears quite a bit of effort went into making sure the questions I'm asking would be difficult to answer.
Now why would the clear answer to the single most important simple question (Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?) be avoided within the hundreds of comprehensive pages of these documents?
Restating the common assumptions is not useful; I need to see confirming references to the documents in order to know.
If anyone has found the document texts that address this, please let me know. I am kind of shocked that no one else is asking this question...

Have you even read the documents? It clearly states that Owner Restitution is given when you sell back the car, or when you get the car fixed. If you decide to opt to wait for the fix, and no fix is approved by the settlement deadline, you will have to choose the buyback, or opt out of the class action (meaning no monies for you).

"If you exclude yourself from the Class, you may still obtain an Approved Emissions Modification if available for your car, but you cannot receive a Buyback or Lease Termination, and you will not receive any cash payment."

 

[fredthe]

That is the accepted wisdom, but even if strictly true, you must see that those three choices DO NOT logically address my question, the absolute first question that should be on everyone's mind - Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?

If you are a current owner, the simple answer is Yes, and it's not an assumption. The documents (looking at the FTC one in particular) spells out who is paid restitution and how. There are two ways to receive restitution: participate in the buy-back, or receive an approved modification, and the restitution is paid a the time of the modification or buy-back. There are no other ways provided to receive the compensation, except: if you sold your car since the scandal broke, but before June 28, you are due 50% of the compensation. If it's not addressed in the documents, other ways to get compensation don't exist under the settlement. If you feel you are due it anyway, you need to opt out and sue them on your own.

 

[fredthe]

Have you even read the documents? It clearly states that Owner Restitution is given when you sell back the car, or when you get the car fixed. If you decide to opt to wait for the fix, and no fix is approved by the settlement deadline, you will have to choose the buyback, or opt out of the class action (meaning no monies for you).

"If you exclude yourself from the Class, you may still obtain an Approved Emissions Modification if available for your car, but you cannot receive a Buyback or Lease Termination, and you will not receive any cash payment."

Note that you can't wait for the settlement deadline to opt-out of the class, you would need to do that soon after the settlement is approved. I expect that there will be an approved fix, but since there isn't one right now, that language needs to be in the agreement.

 

[FloridaJohn]

Note that you can't wait for the settlement deadline to opt-out of the class, you would need to do that soon after the settlement is approved. I expect that there will be an approved fix, but since there isn't one right now, that language needs to be in the agreement.

There are two opportunities to opt out. The first is right away, once the settlement is finalized.

The second is after the fix is approved for your car. This allows you to wait and see what the fix entails before making your decision. You do have to opt out no later than May 2018. Letting the settlement time expire does not automatically opt you out. You have to take action to opt out.

 

[JohnNS]

I've seen a couple others posting in this thread about the "cluelessness" of VW dealers they've been to, in regard to the whole Dieselgate issue.
I myself encountered this - when I took my car in for it's 10,000 mile servicing in January, I talked with the salesman who sold me my car, and he seemed completely in the dark. When I returned in March to get my $500 gift card and $500 VW credit (which I used to buy window air deflectors and roof rails), he was still at a loss.
Has anyone here encountered a dealer who seemed better informed?
My wife has also told me, that as a part of the settlement, VW is forbidden to offer any special deals contingent on you taking either settlement - although I haven't seen that anywhere else, but she's more of a read a 40+ page settlement type of person than I am. Has anyone else heard/read that anywhere?

I've been generally surprised at the lack of knowledge at any dealership (around here) - not just VW. Go in looking at cars and they know next to nothing about the product on hand and zero about what's been announced and coming out soon. It's like they expect you to walk on to the lot and say "oooh, shiny red! Me buy!" Not talking obscure questions, but some of the basics - oh well, not like it's their job or anything.

On the VW front the local dealer's service and sales manager has been good - forthcoming with what they know and customer reaction. Sales guy had no clue when we came in shortly after it broke and a month or so in didn't seem to have much interest in talking to anyone. We wandered the show room for a good 10 mins and no one came over.

As for them not offering deals with either offer - I assume that's not something that matters to the actual settlement. The settlement is just to deal with the cheating/emissions - how VW retains customers after is up to them and that's where the deals will come in to play.

 

[tobianogreg]

I've been generally surprised at the lack of knowledge at any dealership (around here) - not just VW. Go in looking at cars and they know next to nothing about the product on hand and zero about what's been announced and coming out soon. It's like they expect you to walk on to the lot and say "oooh, shiny red! Me buy!" Not talking obscure questions, but some of the basics - oh well, not like it's their job or anything.

It's in their best interest to not engage on this subject. The only outcome it points to is an angry customer and more uncomfortable questions.

The "cream" of the crop have moved on. Why stick with a brand saddled with declining sales during a car/suv buying frenzy?

 

[ATR]

It's in their best interest to not engage on this subject. The only outcome it points to is an angry customer and more uncomfortable questions.
The "cream" of the crop have moved on. Why stick with a brand saddled with declining sales during a car/suv buying frenzy?

Because...
http://blog.caranddriver.com/vw-gti...ast-expensive-way-to-get-performance-package/

It's calling my name pushing all the right buttons

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Have you even read the documents? It clearly states that Owner Restitution is given when you sell back the car, or when you get the car fixed. If you decide to opt to wait for the fix, and no fix is approved by the settlement deadline, you will have to choose the buyback, or opt out of the class action (meaning no monies for you).

"If you exclude yourself from the Class, you may still obtain an Approved Emissions Modification if available for your car, but you cannot receive a Buyback or Lease Termination, and you will not receive any cash payment."

FROM line 31 long form ~~~~ If no emissions modification is approved for your Eligible Vehicle by May 1, 2018, then you will have an opportunity to choose a Buyback or you may withdraw from the Class Action Settlement.

IMO

No where is there a sure bet there will EVER be a fix

gov wants 'em off the road

Believe the GEN 1 units are doomed IMO ~~ there will no fix by May 01, 2018

Not sure about GEN 2

Believe GEN 3 will be approved.

 

[fan of fanboys]

IMO

No where is there a sure bet there will EVER be a fix

gov wants 'em off the road

Believe the GEN 1 units are doomed IMO ~~ there will no fix by May 01, 2018

Not sure about GEN 2

Believe GEN 3 will be approved.

Isn't Gen 1 the vast majority? that covers everything except all 2015 models and 2013(or 2014, I forget) and new passats


that has to be vast majority of cars impacted, right?

also I thought I read that they were lowering the threshold to make the cars legal?

 

[MHC48]

Now why would the clear answer to the single most important simple question (Do we need to accept an option to receive owner restitution?) be avoided within the hundreds of comprehensive pages of these documents?

It's not avoided. You are currently automatically included within the plaintiff class of this particular law suit. If you wish to receive restitution (or whatever you want to call it) from this particular law suit, then you must choose and accept one of the options offered to plaintiffs in this particular law suit.

So the answer is Yes. You need to accept an option to receive restitution under the terms of this particular law suit. (Assuming of course that the settlement is accepted by the Court).

If you don't like the options offered to you in this law suit for restitution, then opt out of the law suit and start or join another one.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

<snip>
also I thought I read that they were lowering the threshold to make the cars legal?

Having no knowledge of that.

gov really wants 'em off the road

From the long form:

If no emissions modification is approved for your Eligible Vehicle by May 1, 2018, then you will have an opportunity to choose a Buyback or you may withdraw from the Class Action Settlement.

IMO ~~ the GEN 3 will have a fix

don't know about GEN 2

IMO ~~ the GEN 1 is doomed

 

[MHC48]

I've been generally surprised at the lack of knowledge at any dealership

The dealers certainly don't want to commit to anything they have no control over. They are scheduled to be briefed next week and the week after, along with being given hand outs, videos and brochures.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/06/volkswagen-usa-saying-dealers-today/

 

[fan of fanboys]

Having no knowledge of that.

gov really wants 'em off the road

From the long form:



IMO ~~ the GEN 3 will have a fix

don't know about GEN 2

IMO ~~ the GEN 1 is doomed

you might be right but I hope not ha

The fix money is couple grand higher for me so I wanted to take fix and drive car for another couple years

 

[PaulN]

Everyone keeps says that restitution requires selecting an option... show me where it states that class members do not get restitution if they decline both options.

Some of the details of the documents demonstrate cases where restitution IS provided without buyback or fix (where the car is unavailable to the class member).

There are at least two places where the settlement is not described as two choices, but three components: restitution, buyback, and fix. One of those has them characterized as steps labeled a, b, and c... "a" is restitution to all class members.

There are a couple of places that refer to the class members stating that ALL class members will receive restitution (with no additional language about it conditional on accepting options).

Why is this not clear? Does VW really want people with unanswered questions to go seek legal council just to get straight answers? The judge should be in front of this... any FAQ should have this issue untangled right at the top.

Please don't keep repeating the assumed answer. I want to know exactly what happens if one declines both options, the role of the claim, and both with respect to the class membership, based on the settlement language, not rumors.

There must be someone here who knows how to parse this language and has noticed that this important question is missing its answer.

If it helps, think of it this way - what if the restitution was due to every class member independent of their option choice or of having even made a choice... if you got the restitution unqualified and the options were truly optional, would that not be an important thing to know in your planning? Maybe the first thing you would want to be sure about in your planning?

 

[RollingCoal]

It would be hugely important to me as it would be the only option where I keep the car and never let VW see it again. As I've stated numerous times the restitution is for the victims of the fraud. It's not my problem if I or a subsequent purchaser of the vehicle fails to receive the emissions modifications to help VW achieve its 85% compliance.

 

[FVWVWF]

IMO ~~ the GEN 3 will have a fix

don't know about GEN 2

IMO ~~ the GEN 1 is doomed

Can someone enlighten me on this?

Has this been confirmed by VW or is this just speculation and opinion?
I keep hearing about it but cant find anything to confirm that, this is actually the case.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Everyone keeps says that restitution requires selecting an option... show me where it states that class members do not get restitution if they decline both options.

Some of the details of the documents demonstrate cases where restitution IS provided without buyback or fix (where the car is unavailable to the class member).

There are at least two places where the settlement is not described as two choices, but three components: restitution, buyback, and fix. One of those has them characterized as steps labeled a, b, and c... "a" is restitution to all class members.

There are a couple of places that refer to the class members stating that ALL class members will receive restitution (with no additional language about it conditional on accepting options).

Why is this not clear? Does VW really want people with unanswered questions to go seek legal council just to get straight answers? The judge should be in front of this... any FAQ should have this issue untangled right at the top.

Please don't keep repeating the assumed answer. I want to know exactly what happens if one declines both options, the role of the claim, and both with respect to the class membership, based on the settlement language, not rumors.

There must be someone here who knows how to parse this language and has noticed that this important question is missing its answer.

If it helps, think of it this way - what if the restitution was due to every class member independent of their option choice or of having even made a choice... if you got the restitution unqualified and the options were truly optional, would that not be an important thing to know in your planning? Maybe the first thing you would want to be sure about in your planning?

FROM long form: # 31

If no emissions modification is approved for your Eligible Vehicle by May 1, 2018, then you will have an opportunity to choose a Buyback or you may withdraw from the Class Action Settlement.

gov wants them off the road.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Can someone enlighten me on this?

Has this been confirmed by VW or is this just speculation and opinion?
I keep hearing about it but cant find anything to confirm that, this is actually the case.

was only my opinion

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

you might be right but I hope not ha

The fix money is couple grand higher for me so I wanted to take fix and drive car for another couple years

As of this day, I plan on the fix. Wanted more $$$$s , but is fair. ~~ I guess.

Have low miles and 25 months on the original bumper to bumper, have 57,xxx miles on original drive train ...

and with the fix I have 10 years and 150,000 miles (on the TDI) ~~ I guess.

If I ever want to sell it, being low miles, and maybe not too many (OTHER) used TDI(s) out there, should get a nice resale.

 

[fredthe]

Having no knowledge of that.

gov really wants 'em off the road

Educate yourself:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vw_faq.htm

If the government wanted them off the road, they wouldn't have lowered the limits. And the proposed limits are based on what VW has modeled so far.

 

[DanB36]

There must be someone here who knows how to parse this language and has noticed that this important question is missing its answer.

I am "someone here who knows how to parse this language"--I'm an attorney (though it should be clear that I'm not your lawyer and am not giving legal advice--if you want legal advice, hire your own lawyer and pay him). I don't believe this "important question" is an open question at all, and I've provided my analysis above. It isn't the result of "assumptions"; it's an interpretation of the documents. They detail the circumstances under which VW is required to pay compensation, and "I bought the car before 9/15 and still have the car, but refuse to sell it back or have it fixed" isn't one of them. Heck, even @Diesl gets this--he thinks it makes the settlement "fraudulent", but he understands that this is the case.

 

[fredthe]

Everyone keeps says that restitution requires selecting an option... show me where it states that class members do not get restitution if they decline both options.

OK, show me in the ducuments (what is all that matters) how you get restitution without selecting one of the two options. You can dream all you want, but if it's not spelled out it doesn't exist. This is a legal document... there is no requirement to say "if you don't do a or b, you get nothing", it's implied by there only being two options.

And, from CARB:

Under the consent decree, if you no longer want your car, you may sell it back to VW and receive substantial compensation. If you want to keep your car, you may have your car modified if VW proposes a modification and proves their proposed modification meets stringent criteria established by the governments. Both buyback and modification will substantially reduce future emissions. If the modification is offered, you may be compensated. Compensation varies based on your vehicle's age, mileage, and other factors

Again, no mention of compensation other than tied to emissions reductions. If you figure you were personally wronged by your car not meeting government emission regulations, opt out and find yourself a lawyer. You are free to continue to pollute, but don't expect to get paid from this settlement.

 

[fan of fanboys]

As of this day, I plan on the fix. Wanted more $$$$s , but is fair. ~~ I guess.

Have low miles and 25 months on the original bumper to bumper, have 57,xxx miles on original drive train ...

and with the fix I have 10 years and 150,000 miles (on the TDI) ~~ I guess.

If I ever want to sell it, being low miles, and maybe not too many (OTHER) used TDI(s) out there, should get a nice resale.

exactly what I am hoping for

 

[autdi]

OK, show me in the ducuments (what is all that matters) how you get restitution without selecting one of the two options. You can dream all you want, but if it's not spelled out it doesn't exist. This is a legal document... there is no requirement to say "if you don't do a or b, you get nothing", it's implied by there only being two options.

Actually the worst case is not opting out, then not doing the trade in or fix. You don't get any cash, and you can't sue VW because you didn't opt out of the class. If you really want to keep the car, going to have to opt out at some point. What is unclear is if you stay in during the first opt out, and the fix is approved, but renders the car awful, can you still get out in the second opt out. That's the real problem with this settlement, 2 options, 1 is unknown. Attempting to decide to stay in, without knowledge of the fix details, is asking an awful lot. This is one major comment to the judge on this. How do you make an informed choice, when you don't have enough data to pick.