Dieselgate: Volkswagen to Spend Up to $14.7 Billion to Settle ...

What will you with your Dieselgate TDI

  • Turn it in for the cash.

    Votes: 319 67.6%
  • Bring it in for the "fix" and the cash.

    Votes: 81 17.2%
  • Do nothing but keep driving.

    Votes: 72 15.3%

  • Total voters
    472
  • Poll closed .
Status
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RollingCoal

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Attempting to decide to stay in, without knowledge of the fix details, is asking an awful lot. This is one major comment to the judge on this. How do you make an informed choice, when you don't have enough data to pick.
That's part of what splits me so badly on the decision to buy or keep. The buyback + settlement puts me in a situation where to replace my nearly new car with a similar optioned and priced vehicle there's no way to get around the fact that my principle will be higher on my new loan. Were I not already in a new vehicle this wouldn't seem so egregious. Owners of newer cars didn't get the years and many miles of usage many here have so its part of why many 2015 owners think the buy back is garbage.

Even if the approved fix is available this fall along with the buy back option which I definitely think it won't be, I would need some in depth information to exactly what they're doing to the car and what effects it will have on performance and mileage. I already wish my tdi was a bit more powerful but it has such a good mix of power and economy that I've been happy with it. If power or economy suffers which I'm sure it will, I don't think I'll be interested in keeping the car.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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2 options, 1 is unknown. Attempting to decide to stay in, without knowledge of the fix details, is asking an awful lot. This is one major comment to the judge on this. how do you make an informed choice, when you don't have enough data to pick.
darn straight
 

wmichaelis

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Everyone keeps says that restitution requires selecting an option... show me where it states that class members do not get restitution if they decline both options.

Some of the details of the documents demonstrate cases where restitution IS provided without buyback or fix (where the car is unavailable to the class member).

There are at least two places where the settlement is not described as two choices, but three components: restitution, buyback, and fix. One of those has them characterized as steps labeled a, b, and c... "a" is restitution to all class members.

There are a couple of places that refer to the class members stating that ALL class members will receive restitution (with no additional language about it conditional on accepting options).

Just for the record, to be a class member, you need to accept the settlement as it exists once ratified by all appropriate legal parties - if you don't take the buyback, or let them fix it at cost and pay you some money, then you aren't a member of the class. Those are your options as a member of the class. It is unclear what happens if you do not opt out of the class, and exercise either option as of May 2018. I don't think you'll be forced to sell, but your eligibility to be a member of the class action might expire. Ask a lawyer.

Why is this not clear? Does VW really want people with unanswered questions to go seek legal council just to get straight answers? The judge should be in front of this... any FAQ should have this issue untangled right at the top.

Please don't keep repeating the assumed answer. I want to know exactly what happens if one declines both options, the role of the claim, and both with respect to the class membership, based on the settlement language, not rumors.

There must be someone here who knows how to parse this language and has noticed that this important question is missing its answer.

If it helps, think of it this way - what if the restitution was due to every class member independent of their option choice or of having even made a choice... if you got the restitution unqualified and the options were truly optional, would that not be an important thing to know in your planning? Maybe the first thing you would want to be sure about in your planning?
The buyback numbers include a 20% of NADA value as of Sept 2015 + $2983 restitution. The fix numbers include a fix provided by them at no cost, plus monetary restitution.

Do nothing and get money anyway is not an option, because the idea here is to get the cars fixed (preferably), get them off the road (the extreme option), or to leave them as-is, with the idea that stipulating additional fines to VW per offending vehicle will spur them on to fix them or remove them.

The settlement has been quoted many times in this thread, with the specific mention that owners will not be denied registrations due to the presence of a cheat device. No state has said they will take the cars off the road as of yet, and frankly, they aren't likely to, either.

This isn't a lottery winning. If you don't modify your car, there's no damage done to you - you still get the performance, and the mileage, that you've been getting all along. Despite everyone and their brother promising "generous" payouts by VW on their behalf, there is no promise of you getting anything for nothing.

Sell it back, let them fix it and pay you some cash, or opt out of the class. Also, remember that there will be a public commentary period on the proposed settlement - feel free to look into what that involves, and let your voice be heard. But if you're expecting a check to do absolutely nothing, you're probably going to be disappointed.
 

FloridaJohn

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Actually the worst case is not opting out, then not doing the trade in or fix. You don't get any cash, and you can't sue VW because you didn't opt out of the class. If you really want to keep the car, going to have to opt out at some point. What is unclear is if you stay in during the first opt out, and the fix is approved, but renders the car awful, can you still get out in the second opt out. That's the real problem with this settlement, 2 options, 1 is unknown. Attempting to decide to stay in, without knowledge of the fix details, is asking an awful lot. This is one major comment to the judge on this. How do you make an informed choice, when you don't have enough data to pick.
From the settlement:

8. When do I need to decide between a Buyback or an Approved Emissions Modification?

You do not need to decide between a Buyback or an Approved Emissions Modification until you are notified whether an Approved Emissions Modification is available for your car. Until then, you can drive your car. If you do not want to wait until an Approved Emissions Modification becomes available, you can choose the Buyback any time after the Court approves the Class Action Settlement, provided that you submit a complete and valid claim by no later than September 1, 2018.

And from here:

32. What is the Approved Emissions Modification option?

[stuff removed that doesn't pertain to this discussion]

Volkswagen will send a notice (the “VW Class Update”) to vehicle owners and lessees when an emissions modification for their vehicle type is approved or disapproved or if no modification is approved by May 1, 2018.

If no emissions modification is approved for your Eligible Vehicle by May 1, 2018, then you will have an opportunity to choose a Buyback or you may withdraw from the Class Action Settlement.


You do not have to make a decision until you have been notified an approved fix is available. Once the fix is available, you have until 5/1/18 to decide if you want to opt out. You don't have to make any decision until all data is available.
 

wmichaelis

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Owners of newer cars didn't get the years and many miles of usage many here have so its part of why many 2015 owners think the buy back is garbage.

Even if the approved fix is available this fall along with the buy back option which I definitely think it won't be, I would need some in depth information to exactly what they're doing to the car and what effects it will have on performance and mileage. I already wish my tdi was a bit more powerful but it has such a good mix of power and economy that I've been happy with it. If power or economy suffers which I'm sure it will, I don't think I'll be interested in keeping the car.
From what I've been reading/hearing, it looks like the Gen III/EA288 engine fix is to re-write the software, and install additional sensors and setup OBD to ensure that our cars stay where they belong as far as emissions goes. There's a chart kicking around somewhere, that shows the 2015's are much closer to the emissions that they were supposed to be putting out than the other cars.

The software would probably lower our mileage, although it's not likely to be a significant drop - early estimates seem to indicate a 2-3 MPG drop. Performance may suffer a little, too, although that still remains to be seen. No, I don't have any links handy, it's pure (Although reasonable, as we're already treating emissions with Adblue/Urea) speculation.

Now, this is my opinion, and why I don't think the buy back is garbage. There exists a high likelihood of fixing my car, and if they can and do, they will give me almost $7000 for my troubles. If my mileage drops from 45MPG to 40MPG, that is going to mean over 100,000 miles, it will take me 2500 gallons of diesel, as opposed to 2,222 gallons of diesel to cover that same distance. And $7000 would buy those 278 gallons of diesel handily, even if it was over $20 a gallon.

If I want to sell it back (which I do, for a lot of reasons), then that's on me. I'm not being forced to, and they shouldn't be punished heavier just because I will take the opportunity to leave mine behind.

The deal is clearly structured to give newer owners more reason to get fixed than sell back, and from an overall perspective, that makes sense.
 

autdi

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2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2015 Jetta
From the settlement:

8. When do I need to decide between a Buyback or an Approved Emissions Modification?

You do not need to decide between a Buyback or an Approved Emissions Modification until you are notified whether an Approved Emissions Modification is available for your car. Until then, you can drive your car. If you do not want to wait until an Approved Emissions Modification becomes available, you can choose the Buyback any time after the Court approves the Class Action Settlement, provided that you submit a complete and valid claim by no later than September 1, 2018.

And from here:

32. What is the Approved Emissions Modification option?

[stuff removed that doesn't pertain to this discussion]

Volkswagen will send a notice (the “VW Class Update”) to vehicle owners and lessees when an emissions modification for their vehicle type is approved or disapproved or if no modification is approved by May 1, 2018.

If no emissions modification is approved for your Eligible Vehicle by May 1, 2018, then you will have an opportunity to choose a Buyback or you may withdraw from the Class Action Settlement.


You do not have to make a decision until you have been notified an approved fix is available. Once the fix is available, you have until 5/1/18 to decide if you want to opt out. You don't have to make any decision until all data is available.
The FAQ is not the legal settlement, 2.51 says:
Additionally, because the remedies available to Class Members include a contingent option, if there is no Approved Emissions Modification available for a Class Member’s Eligible Vehicle by May 1, 2018, that Eligible Owner or Lessee shall have a second opportunity, from May 1, 2018, until June 1, 2018, to withdraw from the Class Action Settlement.

That appears to imply that the second opt out is only if no fix is approved.

Later in 4.3.1:
If no Approved Emissions Modification becomes available, Eligible Owners and Eligible Lessees who own or lease an Eligible Vehicle at that time will be informed that they remain eligible to participate in a Buyback or Lease Termination, or to opt out of the Class Action Settlement during the period from May 1, 2018, to June 1, 2018.

Again the if no fix is attached to the second opt out date.
 

swampyankee

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Passat SEL
From what I've been reading/hearing, it looks like the Gen III/EA288 engine fix is to re-write the software, and install additional sensors and setup OBD to ensure that our cars stay where they belong as far as emissions goes. There's a chart kicking around somewhere, that shows the 2015's are much closer to the emissions that they were supposed to be putting out than the other cars.
The software would probably lower our mileage, although it's not likely to be a significant drop - early estimates seem to indicate a 2-3 MPG drop. Performance may suffer a little, too, although that still remains to be seen. No, I don't have any links handy, it's pure (Although reasonable, as we're already treating emissions with Adblue/Urea) speculation.
Now, this is my opinion, and why I don't think the buy back is garbage. There exists a high likelihood of fixing my car, and if they can and do, they will give me almost $7000 for my troubles. If my mileage drops from 45MPG to 40MPG, that is going to mean over 100,000 miles, it will take me 2500 gallons of diesel, as opposed to 2,222 gallons of diesel to cover that same distance. And $7000 would buy those 278 gallons of diesel handily, even if it was over $20 a gallon.
If I want to sell it back (which I do, for a lot of reasons), then that's on me. I'm not being forced to, and they shouldn't be punished heavier just because I will take the opportunity to leave mine behind.
The deal is clearly structured to give newer owners more reason to get fixed than sell back, and from an overall perspective, that makes sense.
Good analysis there
 

Paulinski

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VW is obligated under the Consent Decree to buyback or modify no less than 85 percent of the affected vehicles within two years to hit the necessary emissions reductions. That's 85 percent of cars in all other states, and 85 percent of the affected cars in California.

If the company fails to accomplish this goal, California will receive an extra $13 million dollars for each percentage point VW comes up short which in turn will be used to invest in clean technologies to reduce emissions of NOx.
Seems to me California would prefer to for VW to come up short of the required 85%.
 

fan of fanboys

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The same thing applies federally, except that it's $85M per percentage point they come up short of 85% uptake.
seems like VW should offer more money then for buybacks, right? few thousand extra per vehicle would probably be much cheaper long term

I dunno
 

autdi

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seems like VW should offer more money then for buybacks, right? few thousand extra per vehicle would probably be much cheaper long term

I dunno
Works out to under $22k a car all in. 1% of 450,000 is 4500. 85M/4500 = 18.8k 13M/4500 = 2.9k.
Other than getting lots of old 09-10 cars to buy, or doing lots of fixes, the fine is cheaper than buying '15 cars.
 

wmichaelis

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seems like VW should offer more money then for buybacks, right? few thousand extra per vehicle would probably be much cheaper long term
I dunno
Not necessarily. With 2 opt-out dates, it would make more sense from a financial standpoint to stay with the proposed settlement as-is, and then after the first wave, see what sort of numbers they are working with, and potentially offering more money later to get their overall percentage up.

If that happens, then a lot of people who take either deal before that second opt-out date are going to be annoyed - but there is no guarantee the deal *will* change if their numbers aren't high enough, so that's everyone's individual set of dice to roll.
 

kjclow

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My assumption is that if VW is forced to offer more restitution money later to get to that 85% level, they will be required to give that same amount to anyone that has already been paid off. Or the lawsuit talks will start all over.
 

Keith63

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Before Diesel-gate, my 2012 Jetta TDI Premium was worth $14,800.00 (NADA), now it is worth $7,000.00 clean trade-in (NADA) and I owe the bank $14,250.00. Due to the mileage (133,000), yes I drove the heck out of it, I will receive very little cash back.

Getting ready to service the oil/fuel tonight when I get home.

What they heck am I to do....LOL
 

FVWVWF

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My assumption is that if VW is forced to offer more restitution money later to get to that 85% level, they will be required to give that same amount to anyone that has already been paid off. Or the lawsuit talks will start all over.
Hey....stop making sense! Unacceptable.


Haha.
Yes, it was said before...apparently nobody pays attention and would rather argue and flex their internet muscle.
 

GoFaster

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Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
Before Diesel-gate, my 2012 Jetta TDI Premium was worth $14,800.00 (NADA), now it is worth $7,000.00 clean trade-in (NADA) and I owe the bank $14,250.00. Due to the mileage (133,000), yes I drove the heck out of it, I will receive very little cash back.

Getting ready to service the oil/fuel tonight when I get home.

What they heck am I to do....LOL
What was the term of your loan? The bad thing about long loans is that you will be upside down for a long time. It's not VW's fault.

In your situation, try to pay down the loan and wait out the settlement. If there's a fix, you're a candidate, use it to pay off the loan. No fix, hopefully 2 years from now you'll have it paid down.

I hate owing money.
 

autdi

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My assumption is that if VW is forced to offer more restitution money later to get to that 85% level, they will be required to give that same amount to anyone that has already been paid off. Or the lawsuit talks will start all over.
Again no, if VW waves some money around, and in exchange for you taking that money, you agree to the current settlement, nothing in the settlement changed. The fact that some were willing to take the settlement as-is doesn't matter to this situation, you getting paid to accept another payment.
 

LogicBomb

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Here is an intestesting persepctive from where the dealers point of view: Dieselgate: The Dealers have more questions than Answers.

All of the dealership concerns are valid, and it's pretty ****ty how VW has left them hanging. I'm not sure how much it would take, incentive-wise, to keep many, read 50%+, of the TDI's owners participating in the buyback in brand. I believe they have a current offer of $2,000 for brand loyalty. For me, that wouldn't be enough. Maybe twice that? I might consider it at that point, but it's still not a sure thing. Some people here have voiced their concern that anything short of a new car that is damn near free would only just be enough, and they might even drive it down the street just to trade it in and get out from under the VW umbrella.

It's a long, arduous road a head of VW, and I'm not sure they're up to the task.
 

srs5694

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There's a chart kicking around somewhere, that shows the 2015's are much closer to the emissions that they were supposed to be putting out than the other cars.
Here it is:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/consent_decree_graph.pdf

The software would probably lower our mileage, although it's not likely to be a significant drop - early estimates seem to indicate a 2-3 MPG drop. Performance may suffer a little, too, although that still remains to be seen. No, I don't have any links handy, it's pure (Although reasonable, as we're already treating emissions with Adblue/Urea) speculation.
I'm aware of two tests of this issue that are readily available to the public:




Note that in both cases the manipulation of "regular" vs. "cheat" modes was based on educated guesses by the testers, but they may have been missing something important. Also, and at least as importantly, VW's ultimate fix is unlikely to be simply placing the cars in "cheat mode" all the time. Thus, the impact on performance may not be as great as what these early tests would imply.

There exists a high likelihood of fixing my car, and if they can and do, they will give me almost $7000 for my troubles. If my mileage drops from 45MPG to 40MPG, that is going to mean over 100,000 miles, it will take me 2500 gallons of diesel, as opposed to 2,222 gallons of diesel to cover that same distance. And $7000 would buy those 278 gallons of diesel handily, even if it was over $20 a gallon.
Yes, but there are other issues, too:


  • If TDI resale values remain depressed, you'll lose money when you eventually sell the car. Obviously, this is more important for somebody who sells a car relatively early vs. somebody who drives it into the ground.
  • If the repair affects performance, that may influence your enjoyment, or potentially even your safety if you can't accelerate out of the way of the truck that's barrelling down on you.
  • If the repair affects reliability, it may cost you time and/or money. The extended warranty should help on that, but if you rack up the miles, you may end up out of warranty with a big repair that would otherwise not have occurred; and even with the warranty, there's the hassle (and potential expense in terms of lost work) of taking the car in for an extra repair.


Of course, these are all difficult to quantify for various reasons. Note that I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise that the payout to those who get a repair is fair. Once you factor in the relatively easy-to-quantify fuel economy effect, the remaining factors are subjective or difficult to quantify, but ~$7,000 (say, ~$6,000 after considering extra fuel over 100,000 miles) should be enough to cover it all for most 2015 owners, IMHO.

This is also not to say that there aren't significant person-to-person differences. Some people might be bothered by a ~0.6-second (or even 0.1-second) increase in their 0-60 times, or might be very averse to the idea of a breakdown related to the emissions system.

Also, some of these issues will carry big unknowns, even once the repair plan is finalized. VW might be able to say that fuel economy will drop by X amount, but that will certainly be an estimate at best. The thing I worry about most is the reliability issue; anything that adds components to the emissions system, or that makes components work harder, is likely to cause a reduction in reliability. We won't know by how much until months after repairs are done -- and even that will be largely anecdotal, except perhaps within VW. Maybe JD Powers or Consumer Reports would be able to track it, but I'm not sure they've got big enough samples of TDIs to make such tracking statistically significant.
 

smithey

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Tucson
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Also, some of these issues will carry big unknowns, even once the repair plan is finalized. VW might be able to say that fuel economy will drop by X amount, but that will certainly be an estimate at best. The thing I worry about most is the reliability issue; anything that adds components to the emissions system, or that makes components work harder, is likely to cause a reduction in reliability. We won't know by how much until months after repairs are done -- and even that will be largely anecdotal, except perhaps within VW. Maybe JD Powers or Consumer Reports would be able to track it, but I'm not sure they've got big enough samples of TDIs to make such tracking statistically significant.
And there is my hesitation in fixing my '15. There's just no knowing how this will effect the reliability and/or resale down the road. I'm very tempted to just walk away from the whole caboodle rather than roll the dice.
 

vintovka

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NO MORE VW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have read almost all the previous comment and come to the conclusion that those with Gen 1 and 2 cars may mostly take the $ and run. The gen 3 owners may have a difficult choice (or better said "a gamble"). I personally would not buy a used gen 3 that had undergone a fix that impacted its mileage or performance. While the "fix" and its effect remain unknown I think they have added a certain taint to the value.
 

JohnNS

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AmandaSch

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Before Diesel-gate, my 2012 Jetta TDI Premium was worth $14,800.00 (NADA), now it is worth $7,000.00 clean trade-in (NADA) and I owe the bank $14,250.00. Due to the mileage (133,000), yes I drove the heck out of it, I will receive very little cash back.

Getting ready to service the oil/fuel tonight when I get home.

What they heck am I to do....LOL
Pray:)
 

JohnNS

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It's in their best interest to not engage on this subject. The only outcome it points to is an angry customer and more uncomfortable questions.
The "cream" of the crop have moved on. Why stick with a brand saddled with declining sales during a car/suv buying frenzy?
Ya, again, talking about car dealership and salesmen in general not knowing much about what they're selling or upcoming models. Not expecting them to know obscure details, but if I ask a 'test' question like the difference between trim levels I should get a reasonable answer and not "I can look it up."
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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I have read almost all the previous comment and come to the conclusion that those with Gen 1 and 2 cars may mostly take the $ and run. The gen 3 owners may have a difficult choice (or better said "a gamble"). I personally would not buy a used gen 3 that had undergone a fix that impacted its mileage or performance. While the "fix" and its effect remain unknown I think they have added a certain taint to the value.
FIXED GEN 3 will surely be tainted. ~~ IF-WHEN I need to sell it

Expect to loose some HP TORQUE.:(

Trapped to take the FIX cash, because it is the best choice as I see it (now)

In my particular case the buy back is way short.

Hope there is additional info later regarding the reduction in TORQUE and HP before I commit.
 

PaulN

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It would be so easy and clear to have made all this very simple, but they didn't... even after 9 months of wordsmithing.

They could have written:

- owner restitution for fraud is $0 unless you accept an option

- claim only proceeds with submission to and acceptance of an option

- class membership is withdrawn (you are opted out) without a claim indicating accepted option

Instead we get diffuse, indirect, and oblique language that does not want to be pinned down, and this (below) is just in the court's summary to the public, not even the real documentation...

Executive Summary of Proposed Class Settlement Program

"...Class Members have two options:..."

There is no indication whether these are true options (optional) or forced choices to allow one to remain in the class.

"Class Members who do not exclude themselves from the Class Settlement Program will receive a cash payment in addition to either the Buyback / Lease Termination or the free Approved Emissions Modification..."

This does not indicate that declining both options excludes one from the class, nor does it stipulate the options are required to have been accepted to receive a cash payment.

Benefits to Owners / Lessees
Buyback

"Owners receive their Vehicle Value, plus an additional cash payment (“Owner Restitution”). The Owner Restitution payment is calculated at 20% of the Vehicle Value plus $2,986.73. The minimum Owner Restitution payment for any Class Member—to be paid on top of the Vehicle Value—will be $5,100."

This does not stipulate that the cash is dependent on accepting the buyback.

Approved Emissions Modification

"If a modification for a particular engine type ultimately is approved, Class Members who own those cars will be notified when the modification is ready, and will be able to bring their cars into a Volkswagen or Audi dealership to have the Approved Emissions Modification performed free of charge. They will also receive the same Owner Restitution or Lessee Restitution payment as available to owners or lessees who choose a Buyback or Lease Termination."

This does not stipulate that the cash is dependent on accepting the fix.

"If no modification is approved for your car before May 1, 2018, you will be notified that no emissions modification is available. At that point, you will have until June 1, 2018, to accept a Buyback or exclude yourself from the Class."

This does not state that declining the buyback excludes one from the class.

"If you own a vehicle for which an approved modification does become available, you will be able to receive that modification free of charge, but the restitution payment will be paid only to those who choose to participate in the Class Settlement Program and who do not opt out."

This does not state that participation means accepting an option; in fact the use of the word "and" supports that choosing to participate and not opting out are not necessarily the same thing, but two things.


How to Obtain Settlement Benefits
Summary
"This Class Settlement Program gives Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle owners and lessees a choice between

(1) a Buyback (based on pre-September 18, 2015 market value) or Lease Termination

and

(2) a free Approved Emissions Modification

plus (boldface in the original)

(3) a cash payment ranging, for most owners, from $5,100 to approximately $10,000 per vehicle.
"

That is three numbered choices being given, the third is cash restitution.

Maybe this will get cleared up during the comments period, or the court will take notice and present a clearer picture, especially concerning the owner restitution, class membership, the options, the claim, and what defined relationships these have among each other.
 

Philpug

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Gone but not forgotten
Ya, again, talking about car dealership and salesmen in general not knowing much about what they're selling or upcoming models. Not expecting them to know obscure details, but if I ask a 'test' question like the difference between trim levels I should get a reasonable answer and not "I can look it up."
I don't disagree with you. Most auto sales people are doing it as a job and not as a career and the effort they put forth shows.
 

Mike91326

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TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
My assumption is that if VW is forced to offer more restitution money later to get to that 85% level, they will be required to give that same amount to anyone that has already been paid off. Or the lawsuit talks will start all over.
I believe that you will be required to sign a release as part of the buyback that will prevent you from ever suing VW over dieselgate in the future.
 

AmandaSch

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2015
Location
Philadelphia, Pa
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG
FIXED GEN 3 will surely be tainted. ~~ IF-WHEN I need to sell it

Expect to loose some HP TORQUE.:(

Trapped to take the FIX cash, because it is the best choice as I see it (now)

In my particular case the buy back is way short.

Hope there is additional info later regarding the reduction in TORQUE and HP before I commit.
Taking the fix for me would be more cash for me, but I have a Gen 1 that I had bough a few months before this happened. So, if I want to make any money, I'll have to drive it for a little bit longer. I have 96,000 miles and figured drive until I reach 115-116ish and sell it back then.
 
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