Dieselgate, The Canadian Edition

NSTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Location
Nova Scotia
TDI
15 Passat
I agree, one should consider all angles before replacement decision is made. I have been on it (on-off) for a couple of months, test driving one by one vehicle and trying to build final 2-3 list. But, I have to say, I have been all over the place .... Difficulty is what compromises am I willing to live with? Only four things are for certain, it will not be a new vehicle, it will be not be any form of turbo diesel, it will not cost more than 30K OTD (hoping for 25K) and it will have larger room inside than my Golf (Sportwagen room size would be acceptable).
I joke with my wife I may buy a "grandpa" car. My dad drove early 80's rear wheel drive Olds 98's. V8 4 speed OD, driven at 65 MPH on the highway, 25-30 MPG. Cheap to repair, loads of room.
I am with you on not wanting a HPFP TDI, and needing room, but I don't really want an SUV so a wagon is attractive. I also don't want a 1.4 turbo gas, a 1.8 might be OK. All the new tech scares me from a repair cost point of view. With nothing being fixable, just bolt on a new part, this new stuff can all get expensive with age or high miles.
 

CrazyDazed

Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Location
Yorkton
TDI
2013 Jetta
Hello. I am in the process of writing an objection letter to the Canadian ruling (Official form can be found at https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/). I thought some of you might also be interested in writing an objection letter. Perhaps, we could pool our resources and come up with a common letter we could all put in the official form. Here is my first, very rough draft. I am looking to make it more legally correct, better wordage, and perhaps citing some case law to help back the argument. If you are not sure what case law is, basically law is enforced according to laws and to previous decisions in court cases, which is called case law. I have been looking for an existing case where one side lied about the premises of a purchase contract and thus they had to refund the product. Case law can be found here: http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/ and for search terms, I was using legal terms such as "contract law".

Very rough first draft:

I am objecting to the settlement for the following reasons.

First, my TDI was bought in Good Faith on my behalf of the understanding that the vehicle met emmission requirements. The executives of VW have admitted that they did not sell the cars in Good Faith. This is why VW, in many countries around the world, have been fined and some VW employees are now also being prosecuted including prison sentences. Since VW sold the car under false premises, this is not selling the car under Good Faith and it violates the purchase contract. If I had known that my TDI violated emission requirements, I would not have purchased the car in the first place; nor any VW vehicle as my alternative choice was another manufacturer's vehicle that received great fuel mileage and that met emission standards.

Second, VW has incurred an intentional tort to harm the environment and thus my rights to make choices to help protect the environment.

Thirdly, the buy back values are based on the Canadian Black Book values. This is the second TDI I have owned and as with my 2000 Jetta TDI, the Canadian Black value for TDI's is considerably less than the market value of the car. TDI buyers pay a premium for the diesel engine and owners are rewarded with the car retaining a much higher value than their gas counterparts as the diesel engines have an extremely long life. One can read of many owners driving their cars to 500,000km+. If the existing ruling is kept in place, action should be taken to adjust the buy back values as the Canadian Book Value for TDI engines provides an unfair buy back value of the owners' car and thus really limiting their choice to accepting the cash payment option.

In conclusion, since I was intentionally misled, violating my purchase contract, into buying a TDI, I believe the settlement should be similiar to that of the United States of America where owners can have the option of a buy back at purchase price of the vehicle. If the courts disagree with this, at minimum, I think the buy back values should be increased considerably.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
Hello. I am in the process of writing an objection letter to the Canadian ruling (Official form can be found at https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/).
---
In conclusion, since I was intentionally misled, violating my purchase contract, into buying a TDI, I believe the settlement should be similiar to that of the United States of America where owners can have the option of a buy back at purchase price of the vehicle. If the courts disagree with this, at minimum, I think the buy back values should be increased considerably.
US owners get buy-back at KBB trade-in value. Where do you get the idea they have the option of getting their purchase price back?
 

canada_man

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Location
Canada
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI Highline w/Fender & Nav
Yeah,
If you are going to send that, you need to get rid of the USA stuff...mostly because it`s false. The rest of it is a reasonable argument.

I respect your letter and not trying to be demeaning in anyway. I have actually felt the same way at times. The rest of this is just my opinion based on the way the law works and the way this thing has gone so far.

There is no way that VW will refund the full cost of anyone's vehicle. The law acts on precedent and what is "reasonable." The fact that VW has agreed to an unprecedented settlement leads me to believe that this won't get changed.

The other thing that cracks me up is individuals' claiming they will personally sue VW. Best of luck with that.

I really hope that this doesn't get delayed too long. Time will tell. We are all just along for the ride (as evidenced by the fact that the lawyers representing us agreed to a settlement with no actual values stated in the documentation).

CM
 

uchu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Location
Markham ON
TDI
2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
Yeah,
If you are going to send that, you need to get rid of the USA stuff...mostly because it`s false. The rest of it is a reasonable argument.

I respect your letter and not trying to be demeaning in anyway. I have actually felt the same way at times. The rest of this is just my opinion based on the way the law works and the way this thing has gone so far.

There is no way that VW will refund the full cost of anyone's vehicle. The law acts on precedent and what is "reasonable." The fact that VW has agreed to an unprecedented settlement leads me to believe that this won't get changed.

The other thing that cracks me up is individuals' claiming they will personally sue VW. Best of luck with that.

I really hope that this doesn't get delayed too long. Time will tell. We are all just along for the ride (as evidenced by the fact that the lawyers representing us agreed to a settlement with no actual values stated in the documentation).

CM
Agreed. I think is great that some of us can express our dissatisfaction on how the whole issue of compensation has been handled, especially considering that it was originated by a malicious intent from VW to deceive the established environmental regulations with the purpose of monetary gain.

That being said, I realistically don't expect any change in terms of what's been laid on the table, as vague as it is right now. Hopefully the judges here will follow suit with their colleagues in the US and won't drag this fiasco for too long.
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
I joke with my wife I may buy a "grandpa" car. My dad drove early 80's rear wheel drive Olds 98's. V8 4 speed OD, driven at 65 MPH on the highway, 25-30 MPG. Cheap to repair, loads of room.
I am with you on not wanting a HPFP TDI, and needing room, but I don't really want an SUV so a wagon is attractive. I also don't want a 1.4 turbo gas, a 1.8 might be OK. All the new tech scares me from a repair cost point of view. With nothing being fixable, just bolt on a new part, this new stuff can all get expensive with age or high miles.
Likewise here, as far as tech gizmos. Give me heated-everything, comfy seats and fun drive-train and dynamics which can stay around 10L/100kms in town and I will give it a look.

I don't want SUV either, but the used market with good wagons is really limited. The German SUV's behave really well driving wise, especially BMW's and you can pick them up fully loaded for a decent price. The only question is reliability ... and it's a big one.
 

tobianogreg

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2015
Location
Kamloops BC Canada
TDI
2013 Jetta returned
It might be wise to hold off objecting until at least Jan 27/17, the deadline date for gen 1 fix submittal. Things might change personally if there's no submission? (Although I did read an article that said a fix was submitted for all gens.?)

I've read somewhere in my e-travels that some form of calculator might be on the horizon too, although I'll believe that when I see it.
 

uchu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Location
Markham ON
TDI
2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
It might be wise to hold off objecting until at least Jan 27/17, the deadline date for gen 1 fix submittal. Things might change personally if there's no submission? (Although I did read an article that said a fix was submitted for all gens.?)

I've read somewhere in my e-travels that some form of calculator might be on the horizon too, although I'll believe that when I see it.
Good point. This is assuming that Canadian authorities would follow suit with EPA decisions down south.


http://blog.caranddriver.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-vw-diesel-emissions-scandal/


From the article linked above:

"By the end of 2017, we should know whether VW can start fixing cars with the first and second generation engines. Emissions modifications, if approved by the EPA and the California Air Resources Board (CARB), will be staggered in stages. For older, 2009–2014 TDI versions of the Golf, Jetta, Jetta SportWagen, Beetle, and Audi A3 models, VW has until January 27, 2017 to submit its proposal. The 2012–2014 Passat TDI is due by March 3, 2017."

So, for me and fellow Passat owners, the wait is even longer...
 

Terrific-In-Tahoma

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Location
East-of-Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TDI
'01 ALH Jetta M5 / 05 BEW Jetta Wagon A4
Class Action vs Individual action of Many Complainants

The other thing that cracks me up is individuals' claiming they will personally sue VW. Best of luck with that.
While it might be more difficult to go up against the mega corp lawyers in a single person vs Corporate Canada, it is possible to file a small (<10,000 claim) at your local courthouse where you live.

Think of this

There are x number of Vehicles affected by the "Invalid Certification", of not meeting the existing (on date of manufacture) emissions law.

Most of the Vehicles Prices numbers (Valuations) were based on the Wholesale Price paid on Auction, in Ontario, as of September 2015.

If a significant number of customers tied up the local court(s) and the associated time, to resolve the issue of how much *should* the compensation be to each owner, then that would cost the individual province(s) justice department big bucks to even attend to these individual cases.

So, either the provincial courts have to decide if they will even entertain such a move, as that would impact the overall snails pace of court decisions for civil matters even more than usual, and if they should push the superior court (or higher level court) to come with a better 'settlement' for affected members.

This is the reason why 'class action' is even allowed as a type of suit in Canada.

When you consider, that you bought a car for $20-40K, and now (Jan '17) have 'lost' 20-50% of their value, that would add up to about 10-15K per vehicle. (2015 MY).

You could sue the selling dealer, who initially sold you the car, AND VWoC, as they were the Importing Distributor, since none of the vehicles are Made In Canada.

This is assuming you want to get rid of the car now, and get something different (Different Manufacturer).

If you want to keep the car, and get a 'fix' if it ever becomes available, or you want to keep the car 'as is', non-compliant, but emitting emissions that may exceed a certain line in thermodynamic oblivion, there is nothing that says (so far), that you cannot drive and enjoy the car till the wheels rust away, and it would no longer pass any 'mechanical fitness' inspection. (Called a 'road safety' in mechanic speak.

As each month passes, and VW knows how this works, it is the same as an insurance claim, where the initial response is Deny, then the second response is Deny, then the third response is maybe accept.

Since the Canadian Black Book Wholesale values are based on 24,000 kms per year usage, it has a built-in Bias AGAINST high mileage cars such as VW TDis because they are the ONE exception of AVERAGE COST vehicles, where the majority of owners CAN expect greater than 250,000 kms life in the car.

Some individual cars, however, do not last as long, and have a variety of 'issues' that preclude their lasting that long, before they have overly excessive repair bills, and due to the badge as being 'foreign built' they get the disdain of not being produced domestically. (Honda, Toyota, and now Chrysler/Fiat being the 'new' kids in the sandbox).

Depending on your situation, a local judge may see things differently (in your favour) than one at a City far away.
 

Tenebrae

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Location
Missouri
TDI
2014 VW Jetta TDI Premium with Nav TURNED IN 03/10/2017
This is an important part of the discussion, since a failure of a HPFP when not on warranty is a $10,000 job. Much more expensive than the depreciation and PITA caused by dieselgate.;);):D:D
Why is the HPFP replacement so expensive? Isn't the pump itself only about 2 or 300 dollars?

EDIT: Oh gods. I found this:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/hpfp-and-common-rail-audi-vw-2-0l-crd-tdi-engine/

And here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=336160

Are these for real?? Wow.

-T.
 
Last edited:

babaji

Active member
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
2010 Golf Wagon 2.0 TDI
Just wondering if anyone has any idea whether or not the buy back depends on the condition of the vehicle? I mean , mine has a dent in it, and a needs some mechanical work too. The interior is also pretty beat up. Will this effect the buy back price or maybe even lead to a refusal to buy back?
 

Terrific-In-Tahoma

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Location
East-of-Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TDI
'01 ALH Jetta M5 / 05 BEW Jetta Wagon A4
Why is the HPFP replacement so expensive? Isn't the pump itself only about 2 or 300 dollars?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3610531&postcount=6

Are these for real?? Wow.
-T.
Theerin lies the answer why customers want to get out ASAP.

It does not matter whether the rate of 'infection' is 1% or 20%, when the arrow hits your car, this is where the 'goodwill undeclared warranty' comes to play, ans since VWoA was not sweeping those repairs under the blanket, they have come to the surface and thankfully been reported in significant numbers (My threshold is greater than 0.01% defect rate IE 1 out of 10,000 vehicles) for such a large expense (Greater than 2K$, since that is approx 10% of the value of most cars on the road).

Since VW have shown such bad decisions in the past, I have little faith that they would step up to the plate, and since the engineering for diesel is so expensive relative to numbers sold, Its no wonder they (VWoA) have decided to not bring TDi back for 2017.

As the population of Gen I TDIs (ALH and BEV) begins to decline as they wear out, then the tenor of the greenwash set will be complete(My Opinion only).

Cars will not be built for being serviceable, but for being disposable and crushable(ok, recycleable).

Can Apple make an iCar?
 

CrazyDazed

Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Location
Yorkton
TDI
2013 Jetta
Not sure where I read the US getting buyback at purchase price. Since I have been interested in Dieselgate, Google suggests articles daily on dieselgate. Searching on it now, no articles come up, so someone probably posted fake news. I will remove that.

In regards to the above question about the condition of the car. I read an article that the buy back value was based on the Cdn Black Book value. If you punch your car in on this site, you will see the range of your car. or go to https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/en/ and you will see a price range for each car. I do not know if they can refuse your car or not; unless you strip it like some guy tried in the USA.
 

CrazyDazed

Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Location
Yorkton
TDI
2013 Jetta
And if you are interested in writing an objection letter, it does not exclude you from the settlement or fix.

The courts are going to review the agreement at the end of March, which is why you have until then to write the objection letter.
 

NSTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Location
Nova Scotia
TDI
15 Passat
And if you are interested in writing an objection letter, it does not exclude you from the settlement or fix.

The courts are going to review the agreement at the end of March, which is why you have until then to write the objection letter.
If it doesn't exclude us from the fix, we should all write an objection letter by the March 4 deadline, if we haven't received a value calculator from VW/the courts.

That is a worthy objection.
 

uchu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Location
Markham ON
TDI
2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
I think that an important objection is the fact that they are delaying and staging the cash compensation if one decides to keep the car and get the fix done (providing they actually come up with something and it gets approved). If I decide to keep it, I want to see the cash compensation upfront, just like with the other two options.
 

FVWVWF

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Location
Canada
TDI
Sold - 2012 TDI Highline Manual
Werent they supposed to mail something on Jan 4th...or that email was it?
 

uchu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Location
Markham ON
TDI
2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
Werent they supposed to mail something on Jan 4th...or that email was it?
If you look in https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/en/,

The statement reads "As part of this process, owners and lessees may receive the notice in the mail or by email."

Notice the wording "may":confused: They also provide the link to Exhibit 2, which is what is supposed to be mailed or emailed.

I have not received anything by either channel as of yet.
 

FVWVWF

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Location
Canada
TDI
Sold - 2012 TDI Highline Manual
If you look in https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/en/,

The statement reads "As part of this process, owners and lessees may receive the notice in the mail or by email."

Notice the wording "may":confused: They also provide the link to Exhibit 2, which is what is supposed to be mailed or emailed.

I have not received anything by either channel as of yet.
Give them a call and make sure your address is up to date. I did that on Jan 3rd I think and got the email few days later.
And good thing I did that...they had wrong address/number on file even though I have updated it during the whole $1000 credit card thing.
 

cuestalf

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Canada
TDI
2012 GSW TDI 2.0L
Question - Answer

Answering my own question: What if there is not an approved modification for those that chose not to trade in or buyback:

"....The Approved Emissions Modification will only be available if a modification of the emissions system for your vehicle is approved by appropriate regulators. If there is no Approved Emissions Modification for your vehicle by June 15, 2018, the Buyback and Trade-In options will continue to be available to you...."

Since I don't see VW very interested in developing any technical solution for at least Generation 1 of TDIs, the government will force/enforce/impose the buyback or trade-in, or: not Emission Clean approval, no sticker plate renewal, no legal driving, no....

TDI and its owners Check Mate.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
Answering my own question: What if there is not an approved modification for those that chose not to trade in or buyback:

--

Since I don't see VW very interested in developing any technical solution for at least Generation 1 of TDIs, the government will force/enforce/impose the buyback or trade-in, or: not Emission Clean approval, no sticker plate renewal, no legal driving, no....
You are jumping to a conclusion that is unsubstantiated. I believe that this is the provincial domain. You will need to ask them (and good luck getting an answer)

Hopefully the provinces do not play silly bugger by punishing owners who do want their TDI touched. This was not our fault and we shouldn't be forced to do radical surgery if we want to keep the car as is.

In the US you can keep your TDI (no buyback, no fix) and the states that accepted some big dollars (as part of the agreement for an environmental program meant to compensate for the ongoing environmental damage) needed to agree not to deny registrations to owners that did not have the cars fixed. That's what you get when you have government agencies with some teeth.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
If you look in https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/en/,

The statement reads "As part of this process, owners and lessees may receive the notice in the mail or by email."

Notice the wording "may":confused: They also provide the link to Exhibit 2, which is what is supposed to be mailed or emailed.

I have not received anything by either channel as of yet.
Everything that you would get is on the website https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/en/. Only real issue is for people that aren't aware that any of this is happening and they will have 2 years to clue in.

BTW: Check your spam folder. Thats where my email was.
 
Last edited:

Steve Ferrous

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 3, 1999
Location
Cambridge, Ontario
TDI
2012 Passat TDI, 2011 Golf TDI, 2006 Jetta TDI (gone), 2000 Jetta TDI (gone), 1991 Diesel Jetta (gone)
In my opinion, this deal is terrific. It is a 'settlement' which I think means both sides compromise.
Here's my math that decided it for me (yeah yeah it's not accurate to 12 decimal points but it is is good enough for me to make a decision):
Car 1:
Value today: 10k
Money from VW: 20K
Great deal I'll take it all day long.
Car 2:
Value today: 13k
Money from VW: 25k
Great deal number two, but too busy taking deal one all day long ....
I've read enough opinions on this thread and the US thread to understand that there are people that like the deal and people who don't. C'est la vie
I thought we would get squat (well, I was on record that it would be a toque and a vw travel mug) so I am thrilled with the outcome and I am ready to get on with my automotive life.
 

minitechnicus

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2015
Location
Caledon, ON
TDI
VW Jetta 2002 TDI (sold), VW Passat TDI 2004 (sold), VW Passat 2014 TDI Highline (sold back to VW)

Scratchy101

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Location
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
TDI
Returned 2012 Golf TDI, now 2015 Mazda CX-5 & 2018 Nissan Leaf SV
And if you are interested in writing an objection letter, it does not exclude you from the settlement or fix.

The courts are going to review the agreement at the end of March, which is why you have until then to write the objection letter.
FACT:
In Canada you must pay court and legal costs if you lose your court case.
QUESTION:
If you opt out and go it alone against VW in an effort to get a couple thousand $$$ extra, but get less than the class action settlement, does this mean you lost and have to pay all the court costs and legal fees?

Hiring a lawyer will easily eat up any additional $$$ you might get by opting out. The only way you might come out ahead is if you can get punitive damages out of VW.
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI

Little vague .... to cast any judgement.

"The Environmental Protection Agency accused the company of installing and failing to disclose engine management software in 2014, 2015 and 2016 Jeep Grand Cherokees and Dodge Ram 1500 trucks with 3.0-litre diesel engines sold in the United States."

Engine management software could mean many things, including a defeat device. The stayed away from that precise wording .... probably for a reason.

We will see.
 

uchu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Location
Markham ON
TDI
2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
If anything is yet another reason to leave us we TDI owners alone. I'd still take the compensation money and a good extra warranty for the emissions and other parts of the engine, for good measure:D.
 
Last edited:

VWJets

Active member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Location
East York, ON, CANADA
TDI
2000 Golf GLS TDI (Retired), 2010 Golf TDI
As I read the mileage adjustment process in the CBB, it suggests it's only a deduction. If someone can confirm that, I'll update the formula. It would also be helpful to understand the criteria which gets the TDI a "Low" vs "High" value.
In the CBB Guide, it states "...kilometers above or below this industry standard may influence the overall classification of your vehicle."
My car's in-service date was November 2009, and I'm approaching 106,000 km.
The way I work it out, I should be receiving a little more than $3100 over the High Wholesale Value + $5100.

All the buyback offers should be based on the "High" value (clean) car. Unfortunately, The Canadian Settlement document does not specify this (unless I missed it).

The US Buyback Settlement specifically states that (paraphrased) "the trade-in price for the car will be considered in clean condition as per NADA, adjusted for options and mileage"

So my worn brakes and tires may work against me up here in Canada.
 
Last edited:

uchu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Location
Markham ON
TDI
2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
In the CBB Guide, it states "...kilometers above or below this industry standard may influence the overall classification of your vehicle."
My car's in-service date was November 2009, and I'm approaching 106,000 km.
The way I work it out, I should be receiving a little more than $3100 over the High Wholesale Value + $5100.

All the buyback offers should be based on the "High" value (clean) car. Unfortunately, The Canadian Settlement document does not specify this (unless I missed it).

The US Buyback Settlement specifically states that (paraphrased) "the trade-in price for the car will be considered in clean condition as per NADA, adjusted for options and mileage"

So my worn brakes and tires may work against me up here in Canada.
In Schedule E, where they specify the formulae to calculate the millage in reference to September 2015, they don't mention anything related to wear and tear. It basically guides you to see if you'd be in the low or the high millage value bracket of the CBB.

If you check the buy back threads for the US, it seems that some owners are stripping their rides to the bones before surrendering them. I'm taking this is a case by case matter and I'm not sure how's going to work here. In most of the cases it appears that as long as the car is running, and the millage is within the limits specified when the buy back offer was initially solicited, anything else won't matter much to them.
 
Last edited:
Top