Dieselgate, The Canadian Edition

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
Email vwinfo@royoconnor.ca they will tell you what info is coming before Mar 4.

I have already heard back from Suttts, Strosburg (one of the other class lawyers). Their answer is:
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"Vehicle Value and Fair Market Value under the proposed settlement can’t be determined until approximately 20 days from the date a vehicle is actually to be returned to VW / Audi. That date is, at the earliest, several months down the road. So, while the information you are seeking might assist in analyzing options, it might also be misleading.

Nevertheless, Class Counsel and Volkswagen are discussing this common request that is being made, as you have suggested, by many settlement class members."​
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So unless the so called "settlement" is updated, it is what it is, and we won't know anything more by Mar 4.

It's important that everyone let the class lawyers and VW know what we think of this cozy arrangement if we want the details before we need to decide whether to opt-out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

bmcmullin

Active member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Location
Bedford, Nova Scotia
TDI
2012 Touareg Execline, 2011 Jetta (bought back 6/17)
All. FWIW, you can go to http://www.vw.ca/en/shopping_tools/canadian_black_book.html and get the CBB value range for your TDi by filling in a form. You are required to provide a valid email address (as the report is provided via a URL sent to your email) and indicate which vehicle you are applying the trade to.

The problem with the report is that it provides a value range as at today. That said, I adjusted my KMs to reflect the odometer in September 2015 and the value range I got back for my 11 Jetta with 175Kms was $2,300 to $4,200! Even backdating the values, and unless I'm missing something, it sure seems like those of us with high mileage TDis aren't going to be too pleased with the buyback offer. Here's to hoping I'm missing something.
 

ElectricMayhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
None!
All. FWIW, you can go to... and get the CBB value range for your TDi by filling in a form. You are required to provide a valid email address (as the report is provided via a URL sent to your email) and indicate which vehicle you are applying the trade to.
You can get it off the CBB site itself, no email address, no requirement to indicate what vehicle you want to buy.

value range I got back for my 11 Jetta with 175Kms was $2,300 to $4,200!
With respect, your car is seven years old, has very high km, and was driven near salt water. How much do you think it is worth?
 

bmcmullin

Active member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Location
Bedford, Nova Scotia
TDI
2012 Touareg Execline, 2011 Jetta (bought back 6/17)
ElectricMayhem. Like everything else, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay. I'd be surprised if the CBB value takes into account the proximity of the car owner to salt water! Regardless, I'm not losing sleep over the buyback value as I have zero control over it. The circumstances are a good excuse to get a new VW, even if it will be gasser.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
All. FWIW, you can go to http://www.vw.ca/en/shopping_tools/canadian_black_book.html and get the CBB value range for your TDi by filling in a form. You are required to provide a valid email address (as the report is provided via a URL sent to your email) and indicate which vehicle you are applying the trade to.
The problem with the report is that it provides a value range as at today. That said, I adjusted my KMs to reflect the odometer in September 2015 and the value range I got back for my 11 Jetta with 175Kms was $2,300 to $4,200! Even backdating the values, and unless I'm missing something, it sure seems like those of us with high mileage TDis aren't going to be too pleased with the buyback offer. Here's to hoping I'm missing something.
This looks like you are getting the current CBB trade-in value (which is available directly from the CBB website). What we need is the Sept 2015 wholesale values. The wholesale value (what a dealer would pay for or sell a car at an auction) will be higher.

Also there are 2 factors that influence a car value over time. The mileage and how old it is. Decreasing your mileage as you did to reflect the estimated Sept 2015 mileage only factors in the mileage. Your car was 15 months newer in Sept 2015 which would also increase the estimate.

Bottom line: By using the Sept 2015 wholesale values your Vehicle Value would be higher than the value you estimated. Only problem is we don't have the information to be able to do that estimate.

Edit: to fix "Increasing your mileage" to "Decreasing you mileage"
 

NSTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Location
Nova Scotia
TDI
15 Passat
Going back for more? How do you know there's not a defeat device in the gasser?
Could be one in any gasser made by Benz, Lexus, etc., not just VW may have cheat devices.

Except on a gasser, if the window sticker says 7.0L/100K, and you get 10.0L/100K in actual driving, you are told and you expect that that is normal.

If we get no new values on our TDI's before the March 4 deadline, in my legal opinion, we don't have a real Offer from VW. We have nothing more than BS.

I don't see this being a deal that will make VW owners or potential VW owners want to own a VW in future.

Any one can make a lemon from time to time (one of the worst cars I ever owned was a Toyota Camry), its how you are treated when you are sold one that is most important. If you look back and say you were treated fairly, that's all you can ask for. I don't see this TDI lemon deal heading in that direction.
 

bmcmullin

Active member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Location
Bedford, Nova Scotia
TDI
2012 Touareg Execline, 2011 Jetta (bought back 6/17)
Going back for more? How do you know there's not a defeat device in the gasser?
I don't know and I don't care. I just like VW vehicles. If I abandoned every manufacturer and retailer who I felt or was deemed to be a "cheater", there'd be few left to deal with. Daily driver vehicles are a money-losing-proposition. It's just a question of how fast the value of the "asset" declines. I don't treat vehicle ownership as a contest in consumerism where I'm in some kind of war against the manufacturers. Rarely, if ever, do we have full information about the products we buy so it's impossible to make a perfect decision.
 

FVWVWF

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Location
Canada
TDI
Sold - 2012 TDI Highline Manual
Im not gonna get angry just yet...not until final numbers are out and I really hope they send an updated table of values on Jan 4th. (fingers crossed)
But the settlement was to mirror the US one...so there has to be some similarity even when it comes to amounts of money given for these cars.
From what I read on here, in the US...most are happy with the cash they're getting....so I think in the end we should be to. Anyways...we'll see in 2 weeks...maybe
 

ElectricMayhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
None!
I don't know and I don't care. I just like VW vehicles. If I abandoned every manufacturer and retailer who I felt or was deemed to be a "cheater", there'd be few left to deal with.
I sometimes wonder if the cheating extended to other areas of my car. For example, did VW give a specially-reinforced car for crash testing, or do the NCAP and NIHS people source cars on the open market?

There are other reliability and safety requirements as well, which undergo testing. For example, the gear shift has to have high reliability in order that the car doesn't go into "drive" when you are standing in front of it, opening your garage door. The material from which the brake lines are made, has to be tested for conformance to standards. Etc. etc.
 

bmcmullin

Active member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Location
Bedford, Nova Scotia
TDI
2012 Touareg Execline, 2011 Jetta (bought back 6/17)
You're asking logical questions. While I'm as curious as the next person, to be "at peace" with my vehicle and not paranoid about "it" being the boogeyman, I hit the ignore button on unsubstantiated risks. Stating the obvious, the big risk associated with vehicles is drivers, not mechanical fitness.

I sometimes wonder if the cheating extended to other areas of my car. For example, did VW give a specially-reinforced car for crash testing, or do the NCAP and NIHS people source cars on the open market?

There are other reliability and safety requirements as well, which undergo testing. For example, the gear shift has to have high reliability in order that the car doesn't go into "drive" when you are standing in front of it, opening your garage door. The material from which the brake lines are made, has to be tested for conformance to standards. Etc. etc.
 

alexvtr

Active member
Joined
Nov 27, 2013
Location
Montreal
TDI
2014 TDI
This looks like you are getting the current CBB trade-in value (which is available directly from the CBB website). What we need is the Sept 2015 wholesale values. The wholesale value (what a dealer would pay for or sell a car at an auction) will be higher.

Also there are 2 factors that influence a car value over time. The mileage and how old it is. Increasing your mileage as you did to reflect the estimated Sept 2015 mileage only factors in the mileage. Your car was 15 months newer in Sept 2015 which would also increase the estimate.

Bottom line: By using the Sept 2015 wholesale values your Vehicle Value would be higher than the value you estimated. Only problem is we don't have the information to be able to do that estimate.
I was under the impression that this whole "dieselgate" thing also significantly decreased the CBB values right after Sept. 15. If that's the case, the value we can look up now not only reflects a vehicle 15 months older, but also a vehicle that took a hit on the resale market. I would assume that pre-Sept. 15, the CBB value was actually much stronger since VW TDIs used to maintain a great resale value (which was one of the strong selling points of these cars).
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
2015 value ranges are published in Exhibit 5. It looks like that is all you are going to get before you have to decide whether to participate, so I'd get familiar with your range if I were you.
Most cars in decent shape without excessive mileage (i.e. less than 20k/a) will be "clean." A significant number will be "rough" due to mileage - that is the primary way using the CBB categories is disadvantageous to the owners.
Ranges yes, but not actual value of my vehicle with certain mileage and condition. Will not stop me from dropping the car off the minute they give me a chance, but that's me.

There's no reason why they didn't explain in their examples how their Passat got their 14K evaluation. Because that's the key .... Unless they meant the members to keep guessing.
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
I was under the impression that this whole "dieselgate" thing also significantly decreased the CBB values right after Sept. 15. If that's the case, the value we can look up now not only reflects a vehicle 15 months older, but also a vehicle that took a hit on the resale market. I would assume that pre-Sept. 15, the CBB value was actually much stronger since VW TDIs used to maintain a great resale value (which was one of the strong selling points of these cars).
Exactly ... nothing new here. Few people post in the last few days, thinking they discovered something. All you have right now is a range of amounts they agreed to offer. What you are missing is the substance determining where in the range your car falls. It seems the trio, VW-lawyers-judge agreed that we are not privy to this information until close to signing a dotted line, which is well after the deadline to opt out.

Feels like the judge dropped the ball ....
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
2014 GSW TDI Wolfsburg 6MT, 2001 Jetta TDI 5MT (Sold at 366K km), 1997 Golf 1.9TD 5MT (Sold at 345K km), 1995 Golf 1.9TD 5MT (Sold 390K km)
For the settlement to have the ranges included, it means that someone somewhere has the exact CBB values for Sept 2015 and has looked them up and made the ranges available. I cannot understand why they're not sharing them with us all! I called the settlement hotline last week two days in a row, asking the people to provide me for the range for my trim level, and they kept re-transferring me to the same number I was dialing, over and over again in a loop cycle, saying I needed to speak with another department, but yet not transferring me out of their department. Sounds like they are not fully organized and up to speed for the settlement yet.
 

node_one

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Location
GTA, On
TDI
2012 Golf TDI
I sometimes wonder if the cheating extended to other areas of my car. For example, did VW give a specially-reinforced car for crash testing, or do the NCAP and NIHS people source cars on the open market?
There was an article that I saw in the early days of this scandal, that was an interview with the EPA, talking about how every car manufacturer has been caught trying to game the regulations in some form or another.

As for crash data, after the first real world crash, it would come to light rather quickly if a test car was the same as an on-road car.

And all the manufacturers "game" the tests for crash ratings. I can't find the article that I read right now, but because the impact tests that are run only overlap on the left front side, that side of the car is built stronger than the right front side. They don't build the strength into both sides equally as that would cost more.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Ford got in hot water with the aluminum (current) F150 for doing that. When multiple body styles and variations are available, IIHS only tests the highest-sales-volume configuration and only on the left side. The highest-sales-volume configuration of the F150 is the Supercab. Guess which body style got a special reinforcement bracket in the cab body. And guess which side it's on. And guess what they did when they were called out for doing this.
 

Scratchy101

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Location
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
TDI
Returned 2012 Golf TDI, now 2015 Mazda CX-5 & 2018 Nissan Leaf SV
Personally I believe the issue with VW is not about cheating, but how they dealt with it after they got caught. They were accused of cheating in Q2 2014 and denied it until Q3 2015. They treat their customers like crap (despite the "goodwill" gesture).
I was going to replace mine with an Audi Allroad, but I just can't stomach the arrogant attitude of this company.

As others have said, just take what you can get and run!
 

Lucsar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Ontario
TDI
Returned to VW: 2015 Passat Highline DSG EarlyLease Termination
Personally I believe the issue with VW is not about cheating, but how they dealt with it after they got caught. They were accused of cheating in Q2 2014 and denied it until Q3 2015. They treat their customers like crap (despite the "goodwill" gesture).
I was going to replace mine with an Audi Allroad, but I just can't stomach the arrogant attitude of this company.

As others have said, just take what you can get and run!
Scratchy; couldn't have said it better myself !! Yes theres not much on the road that'll touch these cars when it comes to fuel economy. If you can go a long time without suffering a major component failure, such as several people here have then there a damn good car. But like you said, they were given several attempts to come clean about what the student scientists/engineers found when they really dug deep into what was going on. It's almost like being on the stand swearing under oath.. Then asking the judge if you could change your answer. This is also what has pissed me off ... The denial and sheer arrogance.. You know you're guilty ; just come clean. Just my .02
 

node_one

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Location
GTA, On
TDI
2012 Golf TDI
I think the reason that VW denied is that they knew that they could not make a fix, which was what would be required.

All the other manufacturers inherently knew VW was cheating, because their engineers couldn't make their cars do the same.

What I don't understand is why VW continued to cheat on the 2015+ cars. Everyone else could make DEF work, but VW had to cheat? I can get that the 2007-14s needed the cheat, but DEF based cars have been shown to work.
 

ElectricMayhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
None!
As for crash data, after the first real world crash, it would come to light rather quickly if a test car was the same as an on-road car.
Nah. VW would replace the driver's side A pillar with high strength steel in the ringer car, get its 5 star rating, and put regular steel in the production cars.

Crashes in the real world are not typically investigated to any great degree. It is not like somebody is doing a finite element simulation; the AHJ just writes "death due to massive trauma following object intrusion into cabin" and that is the end of it.
 

zxcv1000

Active member
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Location
Toronto
TDI
2012 Golf Wagen
I don't know if anyone has looked that close at the US buyback value with the mileage deduction and compared them to the Canadian range...They are pretty similar.

For example my 2012 wagon in the US with the compensation was around $20k plus a few 100 here or there for options. The lowest mileage category would add $4800, and the highest mileage would deduct $9120. That gives me a range of around $11k to $25k. If you compare it to the Canadian settlement the range is $11,939 to $26,634.

That's not too far off. I wonder if we use the US mileage deduction spread sheet, it will give us a rough idea of what we should expect to be offered.
 
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node_one

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Location
GTA, On
TDI
2012 Golf TDI
Anyone else starting to think of using the $5100 towards a dpf delete, a post-pump filter and a tune ?
I'd been considering that since the first rumors of the US settlement.

Get the "fix", and then delete it out with tune.

Only issue is that there is no approved fix yet. And I honestly don't think there ever will be (at least for 2007-2014).

No fix equals buyback or opt-out. And opting out may be faced with the fact that some provinces may not license unfixed cars (or at least there was rumor that Ontario might do that)
 

crashtested

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Location
Nelson, BC
TDI
2016 Q5 TDI Technik, 2014 GSW CL 6MT (RIP), 2004 Jetta GLS 5MT (sold), 2010 GSW HL 6MT (buy back)
$5100 = Rawtek, Malone 1.5, & some 2micron goodies!

Then drive more, worry less.
 

volks27

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Location
Gatineau, Quebec
TDI
2012 golf highline
I'd been considering that since the first rumors of the US settlement.

Get the "fix", and then delete it out with tune.

Only issue is that there is no approved fix yet. And I honestly don't think there ever will be (at least for 2007-2014).

No fix equals buyback or opt-out. And opting out may be faced with the fact that some provinces may not license unfixed cars (or at least there was rumor that Ontario might do that)
I also have a gen 1, and I agree, there might not be a fix, too costly for VW.

So as I now understand,if I keep the car and want the fix, the 5K is only if they even come out with one. Kinda playing chicken game :(
 
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