Dieselgate, The Canadian Edition

Geekydaddy

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2016
Location
Dark Side Of The Moon
TDI
2014 Jetta
It's total BS that there is this clause, what the hell were these lawyers and judge thinking.
Precisely. It is beyond reason that TDI owners have been placed at risk in this way! Sure they're giving owners a "slice of banana" in the form of a ca$h payment but I would rather not personally carry the potential liability !
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
I received a reply from one of the Class lawyers (Sutts, Strosberg) to my email question about when we would get further details about how the Vehicle Value of our TDIs would be determined. The answer, as expected, was that I would not get further details until about 20 days before I turn in my TDI.

However, they did add: "Nevertheless, Class Counsel and Volkswagen are discussing this common request that is being made, as you have suggested, by many settlement class members."

I have replied to them with the following.

-------

Thank you for your reply. I am encouraged that Class Counsel and VW are at least discussing the request that more detailed information be provided on the method and data to determine Vehicle Value and Fair Market Value. I am writing to explain why this is important. Frankly, I am very surprised that VW, Class Council and the Court would consider that the proposed "settlement" could even be considered complete without the full details being disclosed.

TDI owners need to decide whether or not they will opt-out of this settlement well before the current process contemplates them knowing what they would get out of it, even though almost all of the information required to determine that exists now (but is not public).

If all the information on how the Vehicle Value is calculated is not made public then when a TDI owner is quoted the Value for his specific TDI there will be a low degree of trust in the fairness of the offer. Some comments circulating online are already predicting that it will seem like your typical offer from a used car salesman, biased in favour of the salesman. This will result in a lot of bad publicity and many needless and contentious discussions with the administrators of the process.

The stated reason for not providing the details (that it is dependent on the final mileage) seems specious. All the data for all CBB mileage categories as of Sept 2015 already exists but has so far not been shared with the owners. Yes the mileage category a given car will be in at the buy-back date is unknown now but the method should be explainable as a function of the mileage (if its not then I doubt that it will be explainable even when the mileage is known)

Please consider these arguments in the discussions with Class Council and VW. I look forward to timely disclosure of the detailed method and data for deriving the Values.​

---------------

I will be sending similar comments to VW Canada. If we want to understand what we will get for our TDIs before the opt-out date has passed I would suggest everyone contact our class lawyers and VW to make it clear that we want to see the details.
 
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1sTDI

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2012
Location
Alberta
TDI
2012
So really we have learned very little yet. VW continues to push my patience. Why not divulge the buyback formula, other than to further reduce their costs. I'm leaning more and more towards gutting the exhaust and going with aftermarket tune...
 

tobianogreg

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2015
Location
Kamloops BC Canada
TDI
2013 Jetta returned
So class lawyers expect us to trust VW? That's funny.

Pretty sure I'll opt out if further details are not forthcoming. When you look at what you need to spend to replace the TDI and what you might get back from the buyback, this settlement doesn't make a lot of sense.
 

ElectricMayhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
None!
Can someone make a calculator based on the info provide? I don't have the time or the Über excel skills but I'm sure someone does... They had one set-up pretty quick in the American buy-back thread, just saying.
There is an Excel spreadsheet in the Files section of the Facebook group, based on a 2011 Golf TDI Highline. It calculates how much you will be out of pocket on the replacement vehicle.

All you need to do is plug in the values for your particular vehicle, given in the settlement tables. It sets out the options you have in terms of buyback, trade-in at VAG dealer, or fix-and-drive. You may have to alter the tax amount based on your province.

That spreadsheet does not consider situations where you have an outstanding loan.
 
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NSTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Location
Nova Scotia
TDI
15 Passat
There is an Excel spreadsheet in the Files section of the Facebook group, based on a 2011 Golf TDI Highline. It calculates how much you will be out of pocket on the replacement vehicle.

All you need to do is plug in the values for your particular vehicle, given in the settlement tables. It sets out the options you have in terms of buyback, trade-in at VAG dealer, or fix-and-drive. You may have to alter the tax amount based on your province.

That spreadsheet does not consider situations where you have an outstanding loan.
Got a link?

Where'd they get "settlement tables" values?
 

Lucsar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Ontario
TDI
Returned to VW: 2015 Passat Highline DSG EarlyLease Termination
I was checking out the court settlement docs just the other day. I'm currently leasing, so different circumstances for me. However, I did misread one one the options for lessees. I thought that if I opt for early lease termination; I would only be paid "half" of the restitution money at first, then the other half when a "fix become available . Not sure what I was thinking ??? But in reality, I believe if you opt for early lease termination, you're paid in full at time of return, assuming you don't want a fix. It was the asterisk mark for 2015 models that threw me off. Hope I'm right...:)
 

ElectricMayhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
None!
Got a link?

Where'd they get "settlement tables" values?
Try this link which shows the numbers for the 2012 Passat which is used as an example in the settlement documents.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-SAPEfNoYQjcVhnZlBJOGNhU0k

The calculations follow Exhibit 1 on the settlement site.

The 2015 vehicle values are from Exhibit 5.

You can get your current fair market value from the Canadian Black Book site. It involves some judgement about your particular car - in general people overestimate it so deduct about $2000 from your gut feeling.
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
So class lawyers expect us to trust VW? That's funny.

Pretty sure I'll opt out if further details are not forthcoming. When you look at what you need to spend to replace the TDI and what you might get back from the buyback, this settlement doesn't make a lot of sense.
Well, I am not shocked that the lawyers shook hands with VW on a deal ... I mean the lawyers want to get paid as well, and rather sooner than later. VW wants to discourage people to take the buyback, so that's understandable as well. The one person who shocked me to agree on the conditions of the deal is the judge ... he is supposed to have people's back .... obviously this judge decided not to, or at least it appears so from the little information we have (the gag order started it all and it just continues I guess ...).

Now, you mention opting out .... what you have to ask yourself is what's the value of my current vehicle to me, does it do what I need it to do, does it have any issues have to deal with thus creating reliability concerns in the future? .... if you are happy with well functioning car, it's almost impossible to replace the car and not be paying more or compromise. Really simple ... keep it and take the incentive payment, for now. They still might force you into buy back, years from now ....
 

joey003

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Location
Hamilton, ON
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI Highline
Question for you all with regards to parking my TDI -

I have two TDIs, and one of them I parked exactly 4 months ago (in a large heated garage at work, fortunately). Tires are worn and rear brakes are in bad shape. I drive it once every few weeks just to keep everything moving (no clue if this is really necessary or not). Anyway, 4 months ago I parked it with 3/4 tank of fuel. It's currently down to 1/4 tank. Is it worth keeping the tank full or putting some stabilizer in the fuel? I ask this now as it seems like it'll be parked for many more months to come.

Thanks!
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
Try this link which shows the numbers for the 2012 Passat which is used as an example in the settlement documents.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-SAPEfNoYQjcVhnZlBJOGNhU0k
The calculations follow Exhibit 1 on the settlement site.
The 2015 vehicle values are from Exhibit 5.
You can get your current fair market value from the Canadian Black Book site. It involves some judgement about your particular car - in general people overestimate it so deduct about $2000 from your gut feeling.

It's a guess work ... because nobody knows the values from Sep 2015, nor the method to determine the category.
 

ElectricMayhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
None!
It's a guess work ... because nobody knows the values from Sep 2015, nor the method to determine the category.
2015 value ranges are published in Exhibit 5. It looks like that is all you are going to get before you have to decide whether to participate, so I'd get familiar with your range if I were you.

Most cars in decent shape without excessive mileage (i.e. less than 20k/a) will be "clean." A significant number will be "rough" due to mileage - that is the primary way using the CBB categories is disadvantageous to the owners.
 

Lucsar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Ontario
TDI
Returned to VW: 2015 Passat Highline DSG EarlyLease Termination
Question for you all with regards to parking my TDI -

I have two TDIs, and one of them I parked exactly 4 months ago (in a large heated garage at work, fortunately). Tires are worn and rear brakes are in bad shape. I drive it once every few weeks just to keep everything moving (no clue if this is really necessary or not). Anyway, 4 months ago I parked it with 3/4 tank of fuel. It's currently down to 1/4 tank. Is it worth keeping the tank full or putting some stabilizer in the fuel? I ask this now as it seems like it'll be parked for many more months to come.

Thanks!
How did it go from 3/4 of a tank to 1/4 just from driving around every few weeks ? Yes, it will still be quite some time before any vehicles will be returned, possibly summer time ?? not sure if you need fuel stabilizer, but if it makes you feel better by all means throw it in. If you have something else to drive, and you don't want to put any money into it for repairs or reg maintenance...park it, especially if not safe to drive. The last thing you want to do is get into a crash cause of worn tires and brakes. Good luck..
 

joey003

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Location
Hamilton, ON
TDI
2011 Jetta TDI Highline
How did it go from 3/4 of a tank to 1/4 just from driving around every few weeks ? Yes, it will still be quite some time before any vehicles will be returned, possibly summer time ?? not sure if you need fuel stabilizer, but if it makes you feel better by all means throw it in. If you have something else to drive, and you don't want to put any money into it for repairs or reg maintenance...park it, especially if not safe to drive. The last thing you want to do is get into a crash cause of worn tires and brakes. Good luck..
Lol, I'm taking a rough guess at the 3/4 tank. I did get a vehicle to replace it in late August, so I have parked it and only used it occasionally. I'll likely just fill the tank (not sure if even that is necessary). Thanks for the reply :)
 

JohnNS

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2016
Location
Nova Scotia
TDI
2009 JSW
I received a reply from one of the Class lawyers (Sutts, Strosberg) to my email question about when we would get further details about how the Vehicle Value of our TDIs would be determined. The answer, as expected, was that I would not get further details until about 20 days before I turn in my TDI.

However, they did add: "Nevertheless, Class Counsel and Volkswagen are discussing this common request that is being made, as you have suggested, by many settlement class members."

I have replied to them with the following.

Thank you for your reply. I am encouraged that Class Counsel and VW are at least discussing the request that more detailed information be provided on the method and data to determine Vehicle Value and Fair Market Value. I am writing to explain why this is important. Frankly, I am very surprised that VW, Class Council and the Court would consider that the proposed "settlement" could even be considered complete without the full details being disclosed.

TDI owners need to decide whether or not they will opt-out of this settlement well before the current process contemplates them knowing what they would get out of it, even though almost all of the information required to determine that exists now (but is not public).

If all the information on how the Vehicle Value is calculated is not made public then when a TDI owner is quoted the Value for his specific TDI there will be a low degree of trust in the fairness of the offer. Some comments circulating online are already predicting that it will seem like your typical offer from a used car salesman, biased in favour of the salesman. This will result in a lot of bad publicity and many needless and contentious discussions with the administrators of the process.

The stated reason for not providing the details (that it is dependent on the final mileage) seems specious. All the data for all CBB mileage categories as of Sept 2015 already exists but has so far not been shared with the owners. Yes the mileage category a given car will be in at the buy-back date is unknown now but the method should be explainable as a function of the mileage (if its not then I doubt that it will be explainable even when the mileage is known)

Please consider these arguments in the discussions with Class Council and VW. I look forward to timely disclosure of the detailed method and data for deriving the Values.
I will be sending similar comments to VW Canada. If we want to understand what we will get for our TDIs before the opt-out date has passed I would suggest everyone contact our class lawyers and VW to make it clear that we want to see the details.
Well, guess it's time I contact them too and throw another voice in. If I get a similar response I'm going to ask if I can hire them for a case. I will pay between X and Y (wide range), I know the formula, and I will let them know the pay just before judgement. See if they will take on the job.

This is like letting the person that assaulted you decide their own sentence.
 

copperbeech

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Location
Ontario
TDI
2015 TDI MT Sportwagon.
Maybe I have missed a post or two or three but has a "fix" (software and or hardware) been put forth; made public? If not how is one to make an informed decision until one has much more information about the two options ie buyback and repair?
 

tobianogreg

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2015
Location
Kamloops BC Canada
TDI
2013 Jetta returned
The first part of a two part fix for gen 3 was submitted in late Aug but the results have not been released to the public. The deadline for the gen 1 fix is Jan 27/17. Carb has 45 days thereafter to respond, so no help before the mar 04 opt out date. Gen 2 fix final submittal mar03.
 
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NSTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Location
Nova Scotia
TDI
15 Passat
Try this link which shows the numbers for the 2012 Passat which is used as an example in the settlement documents.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-SAPEfNoYQjcVhnZlBJOGNhU0k

The calculations follow Exhibit 1 on the settlement site.

The 2015 vehicle values are from Exhibit 5.

You can get your current fair market value from the Canadian Black Book site. It involves some judgement about your particular car - in general people overestimate it so deduct about $2000 from your gut feeling.
1. Nothing new there.
2. My CBB current is $9-12,000.
3. Exhibit 5 is $7-$28K.

Until I know 2 and 3, I might as well be playing blackjack? Listening to the weatherman?

If I'm offered between $7-9,000 for a buyback or trade, should I take it? What a crock.

I'm already getting half of the $5100 because I leased...........

Once we see some "offers" or whatever is supposed to go out to us owners after Jan 4, then we'll start another round of speculation leading up to Mar 4.
 

ElectricMayhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
None!
Shrug. Just tried to put a S/S together to assist people in considering their options. What would you like me to do about the fact that the settlement documents are not as precise as one might have hoped?
 

bmcmullin

Active member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Location
Bedford, Nova Scotia
TDI
2012 Touareg Execline, 2011 Jetta (bought back 6/17)
Canadian Black Book (CBB) values

Anyone out there have access to a CBB? If so, I think there are a lot of people here who would be interested to see the values. The current values will need to be adjusted back to Sept 2015 correct? Did the published settlement docs explain how that will be done? I assume CBB keeps a history and allows subscribers to select a date.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
Once we see some "offers" or whatever is supposed to go out to us owners after Jan 4, then we'll start another round of speculation leading up to Mar 4.
All we will have going out to us on Jan 4 is the long form notification that is already published on the settlement website under Court Documents. There won't be any "offers" going out until the settlement is finalized, sometime after March 4 which is the opt-out date.

You will need to decide if you are in or out based on Vehicle Value ranges that might as well be $0 to $100,000.

How VW, the class lawyers and the Court can call this a "settlement" is beyond me.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

zxcv1000

Active member
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Location
Toronto
TDI
2012 Golf Wagen
I'm really hoping that most of us are wrong, and they publish the mileage deductions on Jan 4th so we all know roughly what we will get for the buyback. No one will be able to make an informed decision until we have those numbers.

I'm also wondering if anyone has contacted the CBB to find out how much it costs to find out the wholesale value of their car on Sept 18th? If it's not a crazy amount, it might be worth it. That way you can make an informed decision on whether to participate in the buyback, if they don't publish the numbers soon.

I'd also really like to know at what point does a vehicle fall into the "high mileage" category. I'm around 174k on my 2012 wagon, If I fall in the high mileage that would bring me down to around 130k. That could make a pretty significant difference if the amount I'd get back.
 
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dwfdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Location
Muskoka Ontario Summer Lecanto FL winter
TDI
2006 Golf & 2012 Golf wagon, 1998 GMC 6.5 with 310,000km
yes it seems we have to commit to a pig in a poke. I think I'll ride along until 2018, by then I will have almost 7 years of ownership and may be looking then anyways. Although when I bought it I figured this was the last car I would buy as the 2006 golf is still like new and hard to part with.
 

ElectricMayhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
None!
I'm also wondering if anyone has contacted the CBB to find out how much it costs to find out the wholesale value of their car on Sept 18th?
CBB seems to be offering the information for $45. It is on their website somewhere.

I'd also really like to know at what point does a vehicle fall into the "high mileage" category.
CBB seems to call anything over 20k/a "rough."

I'm around 174k on my 2012 wagon
That is high for sure.
 

bmcmullin

Active member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Location
Bedford, Nova Scotia
TDI
2012 Touareg Execline, 2011 Jetta (bought back 6/17)
I'd love to know the CBB values. You'd think that CBB would offer a subscription service of some sort online. Seems you have to send them an inquiry. They obviously cater to dealers not consumers. Someone posted that it is $45 for a subscription.

I'm really hoping that most of us are wrong, and they publish the mileage deductions on Jan 4th so we all know roughly what we will get for the buyback. No one will be able to make an informed decision until we have those numbers.

I'm also wondering if anyone has contacted the CBB to find out how much it costs to find out the wholesale value of their car on Sept 18th? If it's not a crazy amount, it might be worth it. That way you can make an informed decision on whether to participate in the buyback, if they don't publish the numbers soon.

I'd also really like to know at what point does a vehicle fall into the "high mileage" category. I'm around 174k on my 2012 wagon, If I fall in the high mileage that would bring me down to around 130k. That could make a pretty significant difference if the amount I'd get back.
 

bboshart

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Location
Atwood, Ontario
TDI
2013 Passat TDI Highline 6M Sports Package
All we will have going out to us on Jan 4 is the long form notification that is already published on the settlement website under Court Documents. There won't be any "offers" going out until the settlement is finalized, sometime after March 4 which is the opt-out date.

You will need to decide if you are in or out based on Vehicle Value ranges that might as well be $0 to $100,000.

How VW, the class lawyers and the Court can call this a "settlement" is beyond me.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Email vwinfo@royoconnor.ca they will tell you what info is coming before Mar 4.
 
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