Dieselgate, The Canadian Edition

[mxs]

someone told me an Ontario judge was expected to rule this Friday for a 100% refund. Anyone else heard this?

In the TDI settlement case?? (you don't say) .... or your "someone" went to small claim court over a broken TV?

Courts do NOT work like this .... in dictatorships they often do, not country like ours. You know that.

 

[FVWVWF]

In the TDI settlement case?? (you don't say) .... or your "someone" went to small claim court over a broken TV?
Courts do NOT work like this .... in dictatorships they often do, not country like ours. You know that.

Maybe he meant Ontario California...seeing that his location is SoCal.
You know....anything is possible down there.

 

[Lucsar]

I cannot see how there could be major changes to the settlement proposal without another court hearing? Justice Belobaba executive order?? .... LOL .... I don't think so.

Sorry mxs, I wasn't aware that next Friday was just a memorandum; I thought it was a hearing to finalize everything and to approve the settlement. This is why I posted the "possibilities of major changes " . Didn't mean to cause confusion ...

 

[dwfdiesel]

Taking an American court decision and telling a Canadian Judge just to stamp it will provide bad precedent for Canadian court system. The Judge will have to change it at least some to avoid losing Jurisdiction.
He's got to put the Canuck in it.

 

[tobianogreg]

Like we put the Canuck in emissions regulations?

 

[FreshBlather]

Conflict of Interest

Regarding the Judge’s pushback for the “depreciate value” there arises a conundrum for the Class lawyers. I’m sure they must be asking themselves, “Can I really defend this depreciation argument, in light of the Judges’ comments about the consumer protection act and his remark that the proposed settlement, ‘is not nearly enough’, and say that I am representing, vigourously, the rights of the class members?” Maybe, maybe not. But we will know which way that wind blows when we see if the Class lawyers and VW present a joint argument to the Judge, or separate arguments. And even then, if separate, are they not required to vigorously argue that the proposed settlement with the proposed depreciation is not as good a deal as it should be? Shouldn’t they take the Judge’s lead and plead that a better deal is possible if the Consumer Protection Act is the minimum measurement that the Judge is suggesting? If they don’t aren’t they placing themselves in a clear conflict of interest between their best interest for a quick fee and our best interest for a stronger, more suitable settlement? The Judge opened the door. They just have to walk through.

 

[GoFaster]

Don't forget that it's in the interest of consumers that this get settled quickly, too. It's already been far too long.

My money is on the existing (behind-closed-doors and rather opaque) settlement being rubber-stamped with all objections refuted, just as happened in the USA, in the interest of not having months of further delay.

 

[dwfdiesel]

Like we put the Canuck in emissions regulations?

True except in Ontario they still won't license your vehicle if it is illegal or they can prove it's modified.
So our laws revolve around enforcement and not setting the standard which would be a lot lower due to the population density, even Northern Ontario knows that as they never had to do the test. I know the VW will pass the emission test but not with the Ministry knowing VW committed the fraud on manufacturing specs so it really will be a licensing issue as that is the record they will have and why when the fix comes out if ever, it could be reversed without anyone detecting it.

 

[Torqlvr]

I think it's been a long haul because of waiting for the U.S. process to run so they could model off that.
They already have made changes to the offers by now bringing in the cross-border cars. And it's a different deal here right off the bat because it's less $ than the American owners got offered. So there should be more changes no problem.
Put up a revised $ estimator and see what people say then.

I think the Judge has sent a message regarding adequate Canadian consumers protection. He knows it won't kill VWAG.

Also, I don't think it will take long once VW comes back with a proper offer. They said the organisation for claims is largely in place.
They need to really fix the $.

 

[tobianogreg]

I seem to remember that there's an agreement B ready to go if plan A fails.

Thinking the judge might get a call from T2 "Don't pi$$ of the Germans, we need our free trade deal".

 

[Nebelwerfer]

True except in Ontario they still won't license your vehicle if it is illegal or they can prove it's modified.
So our laws revolve around enforcement and not setting the standard which would be a lot lower due to the population density, even Northern Ontario knows that as they never had to do the test. I know the VW will pass the emission test but not with the Ministry knowing VW committed the fraud on manufacturing specs so it really will be a licensing issue as that is the record they will have and why when the fix comes out if ever, it could be reversed without anyone detecting it.

Do you have a source for that, or is it pure speculation on your part?

 

[dwfdiesel]

Nope all speculation but just try getting plates with a vehicle they know is illegal, just not going to happen. The comment on passing the emission test has been made by many on this site as the MTO does not test for nos emissions. Many have passed emissions test with the delete done on their car.

 

[FVWVWF]

Nope all speculation but just try getting plates with a vehicle they know is illegal, just not going to happen. The comment on passing the emission test has been made by many on this site as the MTO does not test for nos emissions. Many have passed emissions test with the delete done on their car.

Im not saying you are wrong here...but I've asked this question before and dont think anyone answered.

In the US, if a state takes money from the settlement, it cannot refuse vehicle registration, plating, etc. Did or will Ontario be taking any money from the Canadian settlement which (I would assume) would also not refuse to register or plate vehicles tied to this scandal?

 

[dwfdiesel]

In the US I believe you are right. In Ontario even tho Wynn is broke she has been sticking to the environmental friendly path, so I doubt registration will be likely. But ya never know.

 

[GoFaster]

They're not going to disallow registration if the fault in the vehicle is through no fault of your own, at least until a remedy is in place.

 

[ElectricMayhem]

Certainly there's enough people to think that they will get a full purchase price back, let say after driving a vehicle for 7 years .... I am not sure what logic or precedence supports that.

There is a precedent for it in the car industry, at least with respect to used vehicles in Ontario. A friend of mine at the office bought an "executive demo" car. A few years later, he went to trade it in, and the potential buyer showed him a CarProof report indicating that it had been a theft recovery, undisclosed by the dealer.

My friend went to OMVIC and the offending dealer was forced to buy the car back for exactly what my friend paid for it, after he drove it for four years.

I'm not sure our situation is dramatically different, although I agree with you that it is unlikely we will get the full purchase price back.

 

[dwfdiesel]

They're not going to disallow registration if the fault in the vehicle is through no fault of your own, at least until a remedy is in place.

Yes of course sorry I just assumed that people would know that.
The thing is if the province will take money to fix the problem then why would VW do a buyout. Still alot unknowns on the table. Did Canada buy into the same fines and timelines which is the only incentive I know for VW to do a buyout instead of a fix. The higher the fine the more vw can pay.
I guess not long to wait to find out I could go for any way the car still is a great vehicle for me.

 

[mxs]

There is a precedent for it in the car industry, at least with respect to used vehicles in Ontario. A friend of mine at the office bought an "executive demo" car. A few years later, he went to trade it in, and the potential buyer showed him a CarProof report indicating that it had been a theft recovery, undisclosed by the dealer.

My friend went to OMVIC and the offending dealer was forced to buy the car back for exactly what my friend paid for it, after he drove it for four years.

I'm not sure our situation is dramatically different, although I agree with you that it is unlikely we will get the full purchase price back.

I see how you could think it's similar situation (car used for x years had to be bought back due to a reason y), but in my view it's not really close ... the causation is miles apart.

 

[ElectricMayhem]

They're not going to disallow registration if the fault in the vehicle is through no fault of your own, at least until a remedy is in place.

I would have to disagree. People show up at DriveClean tests every day in Ontario, to be told that they can no longer register the car unless they make thousands of dollars in repairs. Often, these people are the poorest in society, and buying a $1000 catalytic converter is a hardship to them.

It is quite likely that the Ontario government would say "VW offered to buy the car back. You declined. Your choice. You may no longer register it in Ontario, as it does not meet emissions."

 

[mxs]

I would have to disagree. People show up at DriveClean tests every day in Ontario, to be told that they can no longer register the car unless they make thousands of dollars in repairs. Often, these people are the poorest in society, and buying a $1000 catalytic converter is a hardship to them.
It is quite likely that the Ontario government would say "VW offered to buy the car back. You declined. Your choice. You may no longer register it in Ontario, as it does not meet emissions."

I have to disagree with you ... it shows you are not into politics .. ... This would be quite suicidal, especially for bottom-of-the-barrel popularity of Wynn.

The case you describe is clear and law as well ... something malfunctions on a car which is out of emissions warranty on your vehicle. So you have to fix it out of your own pocket to get a pass (unless there's a past warranty recall etc.)

With our messy situation, it's not quite like that. The car functions fine, but the car manufacturer has been caught implementing an illegal design which if removed does not pass not because CEL, but rather a flag in computer stating that this car is no good due to "VW dieselgate" . Nowhere it says, that I should be carrying the burden in such a case by not being able to register my vehicle.

Now, if they offer a fix for all cars, it will be harder to argue against the province if you refuse such fix and buyback as well. But I would assume more lawsuits coming since some people will argue that their car is not the same after a fix .... big can of worms.

In another words, if they are smart, they will let it go, especially considering the piddly amount of vehicles we are talking about (I would say 60% will end up being bought back) ... so, out of 40K you will have what 10 or 20K left with stubborn owners who don't want fix, but want their plate.

Also, don't forget the fixed cars are still not what the standard calls for .... and they agreed to that already.

 

[ElectricMayhem]

The car functions fine, but the car manufacturer has been caught implementing an illegal design which if removed does not pass not because CEL, but rather a flag in computer stating that this car is no good due to "VW dieselgate" . Nowhere it says, that I should be carrying the burden in such a case by not being able to register my vehicle.

I encourage you to read the relevant section of the Environmental Protection Act. It says that no-one may cause a vehicle which is not in compliance with the relevant emissions standards, to be driven on a public road. NOT that it doesn't display a CEL, but rather that it doesn't meet emissions. There is no way to argue that our cars meet emissions, the manufacturer has already pled guilty in the States.

Our cars are illegal to drive, today. The only thing that is allowing us to drive them, is that the Ontario government has chosen to wait on developments.

Now, if they offer a fix for all cars,

Good luck with that. If there was an economical way to fix my 2011 TDI, it would have been fixed already. They have had two years since the original study came out, revealing the issue. And they certainly would have thought about it before that, as they knew very well what they were doing.

 

[Armby]

I would have to disagree. People show up at DriveClean tests every day in Ontario, to be told that they can no longer register the car unless they make thousands of dollars in repairs. Often, these people are the poorest in society, and buying a $1000 catalytic converter is a hardship to them.
It is quite likely that the Ontario government would say "VW offered to buy the car back. You declined. Your choice. You may no longer register it in Ontario, as it does not meet emissions."

Huge difference between your example and what will happen if there is no fix approved. In your example the owner had to buy a standard replacement part to bring the car back to the state it was in when he bought it. If there is no fix for the TDIs and if the only option is to have your car bought back and scrapped (because VW can't fix bought-back cars either if there is no fix) that wouldn't make environmental sense.

I am pretty sure that Ontario will think twice about sticking to their guns on the emissions regulations in this case. They are already granting a temporary waiver for TDIs because they don't meet the regulations now. Even if there is a fix they will grant a waiver that allows fixed cars to still exceed the limits (the fix improves but does not meet original regulations). If there is no fix they may well grandfather unfixed TDIs indefinitely (and maybe even if there is a fix they may grandfather unfixed TDIs like they are doing in the US)

 

[mxs]

I thought this was April 1st joke ..... but looks like not. One guy in the US paid income tax on the proceeds from two buybacks??? Like really??? It's a short thread only ... googling shows that some states apply sales tax (and issued notices in that regard), no income tax ... other sites use vague lingo like "you may" ... "just in case put money aside for your next year tax return ..".

Has there been any indication how this would play out in Ontario or Canada in general? The last thing I want is to send money to government who didn't care to help in the first place ....

 

[mxs]

Our cars are illegal to drive, today. The only thing that is allowing us to drive them, is that the Ontario government has chosen to wait on developments.

Right, so I argue, they will continue to give you the same pass they have given you so far.

Good luck with that. If there was an economical way to fix my 2011 TDI, it would have been fixed already. They have had two years since the original study came out, revealing the issue. And they certainly would have thought about it before that, as they knew very well what they were doing.

Sure, I don't disagree with you, thus again, if they don't, I will argue the above will happen (pass), because the law is written to discourage DIY modifications ... not manufacturer designs which the same government approved and failed to catch by their own testing procedures. Think what you want, but I can say they have their own portion of guilt in this ... by claiming to enforce emissions by writing half-ass regulations like current DriveClean or letting car manufacturers to police themselves as far as new cars go.

 

[Armby]

I thought this was April 1st joke ..... but looks like not. One guy in the US paid income tax on the proceeds from two buybacks??? Like really??? It's a short thread only ... googling shows that some states apply sales tax (and issued notices in that regard), no income tax ... other sites use vague lingo like "you may" ... "just in case put money aside for your next year tax return ..".

Has there been any indication how this would play out in Ontario or Canada in general? The last thing I want is to send money to government who didn't care to help in the first place ....

I think the guy that paid income tax was buying up TDIs so he could sell them back at a profit. You would owe capital gains tax on that in Canada as well, if you could do it in Canada. Difference is in Canada if you bought after early January you are not eligible for the buy back, only the fix (unless of course there is no fix).

 

[dwfdiesel]

Well that's the depreciating asset argument that nobody understood a few pages back. When you write off the vehicle as business expense you have said it is worthless, to now sell it would produce a capital gain.

 

[dwfdiesel]

It is likely that they grandfather TDi's in for licensing but they may also hold that to the current owner and when you try to sell it the ownership will not be transferable.

 

[icecoaster]

Just returned from dealership and business manager showed me the numbers and they sold around 10 2015 tdi's last week .

You mean they're taking deposits right? Dealers in my area that I have talked to have no details on selling the 2015s.

 

[mxs]

I think the guy that paid income tax was buying up TDIs so he could sell them back at a profit. You would owe capital gains tax on that in Canada as well, if you could do it in Canada. Difference is in Canada if you bought after early January you are not eligible for the buy back, only the fix (unless of course there is no fix).

Negative. He was a regular seller (to VW) in a buyback transaction and argued, it is an income which IRS will eventually tax.

 

[uchu]

Negative. He was a regular seller (to VW) in a buyback transaction and argued, it is an income which IRS will eventually tax.

I think he would only pay tax it if the buyback w ereactually higher than what the fellow originally paid for the car. A car is a depreciating asset, so you technically don't make any profit by selling it (back to VW in this case). It would only be taxable if you restore or repair a crappy car, or sell a collectible, and actually make a profit out of it. My two cents...