Dieselgate, The Canadian Edition

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
I guess I misinterpreted your original post. You weren't say that the negotiated agreement was that VW would pay out $2.1 B and the only thing left is to calculate how much everyone would get. You are actually saying that VW unilateral decided that they had $2.1 B to hand out and neither the class lawyers nor the court had any say in that.

Interesting. I guess under this approach we really don't need fraud and environmental laws nor Judges. We can just leave it to the Corporations to decide. Very Trumpian. Very sad.

It's a legal settlement ... so VW offered probably 1.5B to start, the class action lawyers asked for 3B ... they settled for 2.1B
The only problem is nobody knows upfront how many people will go for the buyback, so in the end, the settlement will cost them more, if xx% of people go for the buyback. I don't know what that threshold is, nor do they, exactly, since they don't know mileages on people's cars ... again they do have averages. So at the end of the day, they have a pretty accurate number for themselves, which they called good enough.
The lawsuit up here has an advantage of knowing, how many people requested buyback in the US. So at this point, VW knows it will cost them more than that (because the US buyback number is pretty staggering) ... unless Canadians want to keep driving their TDI's in much larger numbers than in the US.
 

dwfdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Location
Muskoka Ontario Summer Lecanto FL winter
TDI
2006 Golf & 2012 Golf wagon, 1998 GMC 6.5 with 310,000km
I guess I misinterpreted your original post. You weren't say that the negotiated agreement was that VW would pay out $2.1 B and the only thing left is to calculate how much everyone would get. You are actually saying that VW unilateral decided that they had $2.1 B to hand out and neither the class lawyers nor the court had any say in that.

Interesting. I guess under this approach we really don't need fraud and environmental laws nor Judges. We can just leave it to the Corporations to decide. Very Trumpian. Very sad.
That is why we have laws ... to protect the people ... and provide a fair process to all. I actually would accept the deal as they have it, seems reasonable to me but I am not the interpreter of the law that is the Judge's call and going to court is always a roll of the dice just one man's idea of what it means. Laws in Canada are very pro corporation not that it's wrong just our way. Put yourself in VW's shoes would we act any different? When your Hydro Bill is out of control would you find ways to cut it down even better eliminate it? of course it's human nature. In a past life I negotiated with power wielding groups and it's common knowledge how they agree to language that can be manipulated after the signing of an agreement.
Sorry if I sound offside it's just my opinion of corporate negotiations and interpretation.
Cheers
 

Not Happy With VW

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Location
Eganville
TDI
Jetta TDI
I really hope that the judge applies this part of the Consumer Protection Act
Exemplary damages

(11) A court may award exemplary or punitive damages in addition to any other remedy in an action commenced under this section. 2002, c. 30, Sched. A, s. 18 (11).
 

dwfdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Location
Muskoka Ontario Summer Lecanto FL winter
TDI
2006 Golf & 2012 Golf wagon, 1998 GMC 6.5 with 310,000km
A car is definitely an investment, it's a depreciating asset. Not all investments make money although that is most peoples idea of what an investment accomplishes.
My car was an investment in my future driving years, my health and safety, my comfort, my future cost of maintenance and for some image.
Depreciating assets require are a management plan on how to keep the deprecation to a minimum. Ergo so you can extract your trade in value when you sell. Of course you could run it to zero or to a point where it cost more to maintain it than what it's worth that is the decision of the owner.
All those people who quit driving their investment and parked it are trying to protect their resale value everyone considers what they need to do to make the most out of their situation. Just like VW offered up the $1000 good will money to soften up the parties to the agreement, it was another corporate decision on how to control the damage.

You think I'm cynical well maybe my wife thinks so lol.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
It's a legal settlement ... so VW offered probably 1.5B to start, the class action lawyers asked for 3B ... they settled for 2.1B
The only problem is nobody knows upfront how many people will go for the buyback, so in the end, the settlement will cost them more, if xx% of people go for the buyback. I don't know what that threshold is, nor do they, exactly, since they don't know mileages on people's cars ... again they do have averages. So at the end of the day, they have a pretty accurate number for themselves, which they called good enough.
The lawsuit up here has an advantage of knowing, how many people requested buyback in the US. So at this point, VW knows it will cost them more than that (because the US buyback number is pretty staggering) ... unless Canadians want to keep driving their TDI's in much larger numbers than in the US.
Given all the uncertainty of what the number represent its not really fair to compare, but I will do it anyway, just for fun. The US payout to owners is $US 10 B I think, not counting the $4.7 B on programs to offset emissions and boost clean-vehicle projects). That is $Cdn 13.3 B which is 6.3 times larger than the Canadian payout ($2.1 B) but they have only 4.5 times as many two-litre TDIs. VW US is paying owners 40% more per vehicle and that doesn't count any of the other programs and fines that VW is paying in US agencies compared to almost nothing in Canada
 

FVWVWF

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Location
Canada
TDI
Sold - 2012 TDI Highline Manual
Given all the uncertainty of what the number represent its not really fair to compare, but I will do it anyway, just for fun. The US payout to owners is $US 10 B I think, not counting the $4.7 B on programs to offset emissions and boost clean-vehicle projects). That is $Cdn 13.3 B which is 6.3 times larger than the Canadian payout ($2.1 B) but they have only 4.5 times as many two-litre TDIs. VW US is paying owners 40% more per vehicle and that doesn't count any of the other programs and fines that VW is paying in US agencies compared to almost nothing in Canada
Too many numbers...mind confused. Haha

Nah but really, its important to also point out that many of US people got more for their car than they paid for. Be it even $5.00. And then you compare it to this awesome CBB calculator we've got...and everyone (almost) is questioning the values of their vehicles.
 

dwfdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Location
Muskoka Ontario Summer Lecanto FL winter
TDI
2006 Golf & 2012 Golf wagon, 1998 GMC 6.5 with 310,000km
I think it's because we are looking at this as owners of a car and not victims of Fraud. Vw conspired to commit fraud and since you cannot arrest a corporation or put a corporation in jail we are only left with monetary penalty which are over and above the initial price of the car. Now if we agree to assess a value for our use that is up to us.
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
Given all the uncertainty of what the number represent its not really fair to compare, but I will do it anyway, just for fun. The US payout to owners is $US 10 B I think, not counting the $4.7 B on programs to offset emissions and boost clean-vehicle projects). That is $Cdn 13.3 B which is 6.3 times larger than the Canadian payout ($2.1 B) but they have only 4.5 times as many two-litre TDIs. VW US is paying owners 40% more per vehicle and that doesn't count any of the other programs and fines that VW is paying in US agencies compared to almost nothing in Canada
That's what you get in a country who would have close to no teeth to use if it was not for the US and EPA.

We piggy back a ton of stuff of EPA, so we are not here to call the shots, regardless what some of posters here think.

Certainly, the Ontario judge thinks he can ... let's see what his charm will do. I say a couple of thousands at best for the newer models, but extra months waiting. Oh, you will also get a penny precise calculator, so we all can sleep soundly before we sign a dotted line ...
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
A car is definitely an investment, it's a depreciating asset. Not all investments make money although that is most peoples idea of what an investment accomplishes.
My car was an investment in my future driving years, my health and safety, my comfort, my future cost of maintenance and for some image.
Depreciating assets require are a management plan on how to keep the deprecation to a minimum. Ergo so you can extract your trade in value when you sell. Of course you could run it to zero or to a point where it cost more to maintain it than what it's worth that is the decision of the owner.
All those people who quit driving their investment and parked it are trying to protect their resale value everyone considers what they need to do to make the most out of their situation. Just like VW offered up the $1000 good will money to soften up the parties to the agreement, it was another corporate decision on how to control the damage.

You think I'm cynical well maybe my wife thinks so lol.
I agree with her 100%, because by your definition of an investment, your groceries are an investment into your future health. Am I right?

You are quite wrong thinking that all parking their car are protecting their investment. You do realize that people's needs change, which requires often to trade a current car in. People cannot wait for lengthy settlement be completed, so they move on and park the damaged goods so they can get rid of it at their earliest convenience at reasonable cost, which the offer certainly is.

In your case, you think you have a golden egg type of investment, so naturally you are unhappy ... :)
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
So .... after lunch I took the time to read the whole court room report posted on the FB .... https://www.facebook.com/groups/534331546750939/permalink/650291991821560/ .... I have no idea who this guy who posted the report is. I guess he was there to make an objection.

I better make a room in my TFSA account, because there's a strong believe that I should be getting a cheque for a full purchase price. You know our consumer protection laws are so strong that our government chose to not prosecute VW (because it's so easy to nail them), but left it to others like a judge in Ontario during settlement approval hearing to raise the point.

I guess only possible here ....
 

dwfdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Location
Muskoka Ontario Summer Lecanto FL winter
TDI
2006 Golf & 2012 Golf wagon, 1998 GMC 6.5 with 310,000km
I agree with her 100%, because by your definition of an investment, your groceries are an investment into your future health. Am I right?

You are quite wrong thinking that all parking their car are protecting their investment. You do realize that people's needs change, which requires often to trade a current car in. People cannot wait for lengthy settlement be completed, so they move on and park the damaged goods so they can get rid of it at their earliest convenience at reasonable cost, which the offer certainly is.

In your case, you think you have a golden egg type of investment, so naturally you are unhappy ... :)
I would guess you didn't read my post I said I would accept the agreement. I did not make a complaint to be heard in court and I did not file the form. But I do have to pay for this inconvenience to me in hard earned Canadian Dollars. Your idea about investment is different than mine and that's ok it's your idea if I invest in food instead of bad cars or hydro I would consider that my management of my limited funds or "an investment"
Cheers and I am not unhappy just practical.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
I tried out the CBB estimator today and it seems they have updated the milage up 3,000 kms!
Can confirm. Actually up 4000 km at the higher end of my band. The band I was in was originally from 70,001 to 95,000 km. It is now from 73001 to 99,000 km . Same $ Value ($15,050)

I am at a little over 75,000 km on the odometer now so if I continue to drive less than average km I may drop into the next band at some future time and be at $16,200. Still low but an improvement.

Alternatively I could put on more than 20,000 km and growing without affecting my Value.
 
Last edited:

vwrust

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Location
Ottawa
TDI
Golf 2010
Can confirm. Actually up 4000 km at the higher end of my band. The band I was in was originally from 70,001 to 95,000 km. It is now from 73001 to 99,000 km . Same $ Value ($15,050)

I am at a little over 75,000 km on the odometer now so if I continue to drive less than average km I may drop into the next band at some future time and be at $16,200. Still low but an improvement.

Alternatively I could put on more than 20,000 km and growing without affecting my Value.
It made a big difference to me as I have now dropped down into a lower bracket and should get another $1,400 (assuming this estimator ends up being valid). I am hardly driving the car at all anymore as the turbo is gone and it will not accelerate at all unless we pay over $3,000 to fix it. We are definitely not doing that as it has rust (appeared when it was just 4 years old) and a dead radio (for the last year). I can't wait to get rid of it!
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
It made a big difference to me as I have now dropped down into a lower bracket and should get another $1,400 (assuming this estimator ends up being valid). I am hardly driving the car at all anymore as the turbo is gone and it will not accelerate at all unless we pay over $3,000 to fix it. We are definitely not doing that as it has rust (appeared when it was just 4 years old) and a dead radio (for the last year). I can't wait to get rid of it!
Not that you care anymore but don't VWs have a 10 year rust warranty?
 

uchu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Location
Markham ON
TDI
2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
I think they are playing with the algorithms of the CBB calculator again...My current buyback value has not changed with the current mileage, but it actually INCREASES by $2400 if I add 3000 km?!:eek::confused:
 

vwrust

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Location
Ottawa
TDI
Golf 2010
Not that you care anymore but don't VWs have a 10 year rust warranty?
We tried that. The covered some of the rust work (on the door jam) but said the rest (by the back wheel) was not covered. I can't remember the excuse they gave anymore. That was just the start of our frustrations. The interesting thing is that everything that has gone wrong for us (rust, radio, struts, ...) also seems to have plagued the other two vw owners we know and both of those have already gotten rid of their's. We decided to hold out for a possible buyback and have been waiting 2 years now. I am so ready for this all to be over, but waiting a bit longer has already gained us $1,400 (theoretically) so maybe the good judge can get us a bit more, here's hoping. I am definitely never buying a vw again! I am not happy with the way we have been treated on warranty work or this whole extended fiasco.
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
I think they are playing with the algorithms of the CBB calculator again...My current buyback value has not changed with the current mileage, but it actually INCREASES by $2400 if I add 3000 km?!:eek::confused:

But why would there be a reason to "play" with the CBB?? ... hard to understand why they are doing it if that is nonetheless intentional. Certainly not based on anything the court has apparently concluded on Fridays and definitely not VW lawyers testing how their numbers would like if ....
 

FVWVWF

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Location
Canada
TDI
Sold - 2012 TDI Highline Manual
But why would there be a reason to "play" with the CBB?? ...
Im guilty of that.
In my case, I am currently bsitting at 120,000 kms. The value doesnt change until I hit 160,000 kms (or around there).
So I can "breathe" easy knowing that I can put another 40,000 kms on the car without lowering the amount that VW will pay.

Let's say I could only put on 10,000 kms before the amount changes....then I would not drive the car across the country this summer and would drive more "conservative". :p


*edit....oh you mean CBB site being played with....thought you meant users entering different kms. lol I still dont understand how some of yas get a higher amount by putting more kms...I get the opposite.
 
Last edited:

uchu

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Location
Markham ON
TDI
2012 Passat Highline - in VW's possession
I meant to say that somebody at the administrator's website has been playing games with the calculator. The buyback values I used to get were very consistent and now they are all over the place.

But yes, it's a futile exercise. After getting an earful from the judge, they should come out know with something similar to those spiffy tables that they presented the US TDI owners for their buyback option, so (hopefully) it won't be much room for guessing.
 

PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
Not that you care anymore but don't VWs have a 10 year rust warranty?
It's 12 years. Depending what year you purchased, it was either unlimited mileage, or more recently they slapped a 200k km mileage limit but still 12 years.

Unlike many I managed to collect quite a bit on it for our 2005 Passat TDI which our son still drives. Both front fenders, front doors, right rear passenger door, and trunk lid (twice!) were replaced under warranty, plus some repairs to the left rear quarter panel.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
But why would there be a reason to "play" with the CBB?? ... hard to understand why they are doing it if that is nonetheless intentional. Certainly not based on anything the court has apparently concluded on Fridays and definitely not VW lawyers testing how their numbers would like if ....

The mileage ranges have been adjusted upward by 3000+ km to account for average mileage since the estimator was put up in mid-feb. I guess there still is some problems with how things behave in the highest mileage range for some models and/or years which the adjustment uncovered

This mileage range adjustment should be an ongoing process until the program ends. Of course what happens due to the court hearing could change the buy back values or other aspects of the calculation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
OK, so they are just trying to fix something what was still not working until the original CBB figures. Not that someone is actually sweetening the payout amounts ...
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
So on the FB group (since some of you cannot apparently get there) ... some crazy souls were considering to write to the judge "directly" ... wisely, they at least have asked the legal counsel which certainly has not recommended that. Talk about people knowing no ends to how far to go.

Also, there appears to be some VW dealers who summarize (through e-mail) the hearing as a constructive exchange of facts which certainly been misinterpreted by some of out-of-the room reports ...

Like this boondoggle doesn't already have enough hands in the cookie jar. All it needs now, is direct members letter to the judge begging for more money or money-seeking VW dealer worrying about their future.

Anyway, Apr 7, a written reports of the hearing should be released by the legal sides.
 

Armby

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Location
Ottawa, Canada
TDI
2013 Golf
Anyway, Apr 7, a written reports of the hearing should be released by the legal sides.
If the Apr 7 submissions are released it will be fascinating reading. I really want to see how our class counsel tries to justify what they agreed to in the original settlement and if they will now stand up for the owners' interests.
 

mxs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Location
Ontario
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
Rainy and ugly day here ... so I have a bit of time to read.

On the famous FB page .... there's a guy, who apparently took 60K loan with a bank to buy his wagon TDI. He got pissed with the settlement delay and called the bank that he's stopping his payments and that they can repo the car. Which they just did (he posted pics of the car being loaded on a tow truck). When asked by others if he's nuts not worrying about money down the drain he has paid so far and R9 rating on his credit report ... his answer was "I am not worried about it."

You cannot make this stuff up ... or perhaps you can? ... LOL
 

GigaFire

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Location
Vancouver, Canada
TDI
2012 CW Golf
I am done with some of those delusional pillocks on that FB page. Sending a letter direct could delay the process and con some of us who just want to get out as quickly and painlessly as possible.
 
Top