Dieselgate Investigator: Lawsuit overblown

tdi54

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15 Billion of punishment is out of proportion. GM and that Japanese firm with the faulty air bag killed many innocent lives yet how much of monetary punishment have they received? They also cheated the same way VW did. Indeed, VW's cheating actually inadvertently benefited all of the users of these cars in terms of fuel economy. And has any of the 480K of drivers or their close relatives, friends hospitalized due the exhaust emission of these little frugal engines??
 
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TDIinMA

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15 Billion of punishment is out of proportion. GM and that Japanese firm with the faulty air bag killed many innocent lives yet how much of monetary punishment have they received? They also cheated the same way VW did. Indeed, VW's cheating actually inadvertently benefited all of the users of these cars in terms of fuel economy. And has any of the 480K of drivers or their close relatives, friends hospitalized due the exhaust emission of these little frugal engines??
It's because this was an affront to Gaia, the new but old pagan god of earthly comfort and all things "clean". Oh, and that it could be used to push the narrative of the evil capitalist fossil fueled greedy bad guys vs. the benevolent enlightened mastermind degrowth statist good guys to adopt carbon credits, reparations, "crimes against the earth", and other legislation that will cost trillions.

Slap on the wrist, my eye! :eek:

How bad were VW diesel emissions? Your report states that it was often at 40 times maximum regulatory limits. But was that all the time?

People should understand the idea of absolute magnitude, whether it’s 40 times or 25 times or 15 times, the actual magnitude is lost. Even if it exceeded the regulatory maximum by 40 times, it still is low levels of emissions. Because the standard itself is so low, 40 times is not a huge number. The approach that was used to circumvent the emissions testing procedure is the topic of discussion. We don’t know the real reason VW did it, whether it was reliability issues of their diesel engines or cost cutting. The actual magnitude is still pretty low. We do a lot of work with heavy-duty engines, and when you look at those heavy-duty engines at certain operating conditions, they exceed the limits by five or 10 times, but those engines are exempt. Or sometimes the manufacturer was transparent, saying, “We did our best, but we’re still 10 times over the limit.” What do these numbers really mean? If the standard is 0.0001 parts per million, then 40 times that is still virtually nothing.

[...]

If the VW emissions that triggered these lawsuits and fines were evaluated compared to pre-2008 or pre-2000 regulations levels, would they have been in compliance?

I believe they would be in compliance. The Tier 2 Bin 5 standards went really, really low compared to the previous standard. That’s why it took a lot of time for diesel cars to be 50-state compliant, because it is almost impossible and economically unviable. Automakers had to weigh the payback period to see if it was worth the investment.(Emphasis added)
 
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HBarlow

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The WVU professor's statements prove what I suspected all along. The issue is caused by the unreasonably and arbitrarily established extremely low standard for NOx emissions.

It's easy to create regulations like that when you are employed by the government and don't have to consider the difficulty or cost of meeting your ridiculous standard.

The scandal is based on bs not legitimate concerns.
 

TDIinMA

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The WVU professor's statements prove what I suspected all along. The issue is caused by the unreasonably and arbitrarily established extremely low standard for NOx emissions.

It's easy to create regulations like that when you are employed by the government and don't have to consider the difficulty or cost of meeting your ridiculous standard.

The scandal is based on bs not legitimate concerns.
"Clean Diesel" became "dirty" and even murderous, seemingly overnight, even though nothing has really changed in the real world other than regulation requirements going up while emissions are actually going down.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Although I don't think "They all do it" is a legitimate rationale, this suit is inappropriate. The real criminal here is the EPA: they don't know how to regulate, they can't even obtain emissions measurements. They got these from a third party. I think the pressure that VW has come under would have been better placed on the EPA.
 
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Tabbycat

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regulations exists for a reason. Large companies can always litigate and lobby for changes.

That is not the case with VW.
 
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Tabbycat

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15 Billion of punishment is out of proportion. GM and that Japanese firm with the faulty air bag killed many innocent lives yet how much of monetary punishment have they received? They also cheated the same way VW did. Indeed, VW's cheating actually inadvertently benefited all of the users of these cars in terms of fuel economy. And has any of the 480K of drivers or their close relatives, friends hospitalized due the exhaust emission of these little frugal engines??
$15 billion is in proportion if you think in terms of logarithms. We're talking about large scale, 500k cars that were sold for $20-$30k. This is a small slap on their hands, and nobody gets to goto jail in the US.

You can fix airbags, you can't fix a whole engine that was intentionally designed and manufactured to cheat regulations.
 

NamesLucky

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And as a guy with a MAcc and MBA, I'm likely smarter than you too. I hold high standards of integrity in my business dealings. You can't put a price on honesty.
Don't belittle other forum members, just because you have more degrees (however relevant to the situation) doesn't automatically make you smarter, nor give you power to put others down for their opinion. Let's be civil guys.
 

PC Passat

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Where Volkswagon really made their mistake was in not donating to the Clinton Foundation. Future models could have been made compliant and for the older models they could have said " what does it really matter now".
 
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Tabbycat

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It's relevant, these are business degrees, and VW is a business.
 
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Tabbycat

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Actually you can fix the engines. VW is testing fixes right now.
If they can fix it without changing mileage and performance, then it's called a fix. But that's not likely the case.

The real fix is, they won't do this **** again.
 
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Tabbycat

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All of this has been extensively discussed in prior threads, we should move on from this. The issue has been addressed in court.
All of this "they didn't do anything wrong and they have a fix" arguments is irrelevant at this point. Judge Breyer will take care of matters. The legal system works.
 
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scooperhsd

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Although I don't think "They all do it" is a legitimate rationale, this suit is inappropriate. The real criminal here is the EPA: they don't know how to regulate, they can't even obtain emissions measurements. They got these from a third party. I think the pressure that VW has come under would have been better placed on the EPA.

What have I been saying all along ?

The people who should be getting crucified over this are the EPA and CARB, thank you very much...
 

gmcjetpilot

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regulations exists for a reason. Large companies can always litigate and lobby for changes.

That is not the case with VW.
Those regulations are made by autocrats and bureaucrats... look around you.. are the current folks making these decisions... Do you trust them... (PLEASE NO POLITICAL COMMENTS OR RANTS AGAINST FORUM RULES). Just saying that regulations are not always handed down based on reason, facts or sacrosanct gospel or without unintended consequences not foreseen by the regulators. They are often not that wise or even logical, in my opinion. Sometimes. Obviously law and order and regulations as you say have a place.... Some regulations are great and for the good of all. Some regulations are pure political garbage based on some very convoluted reasons that does more harm than good.

BTW OP, thanks for the article.... enjoyed it. I have been saying the same things for a year....
 
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Tabbycat

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Those regulations are made by autocrats and bureaucrats... look around you.. are the current folks making these decisions... Do you trust them... (PLEASE NO POLITICAL COMMENTS OR RANTS AGAINST FORUM RULES). Just saying that regulations are not always handed down based on reason, facts or sacrosanct gospel or without unintended consequences not foreseen by the regulators. They are often not that wise or even logical, in my opinion. Sometimes. Obviously law and order and regulations as you say have a place.... Some regulations are great and for the good of all. Some regulations are pure political garbage based on some very convoluted reasons that does more harm than good.

BTW OP, thanks for the article.... enjoyed it. I have been saying the same things for a year....
That still doesn't change the fact that VW engineers and managers decided to bypass current regulations and standards by cheating on an emissions test. Doesn't matter if regulators are illogical, garbage, etc.

If you don't like the system we have here in the US of A, you are more than welcomed to make a difference, expatriate, or not do anything at all (if that is the case agree with the finding and shut the hell up).
Just "saying the same things things for a year" is a stupid closing argument and does nothing.

I'm just speaking with the reasoning that small and large companies should act in an ethical manner, and that consumers should be protected.
 
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flee

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Those regulations are made by autocrats and bureaucrats... look around you.. are the current folks making these decisions... Do you trust them... (PLEASE NO POLITICAL COMMENTS OR RANTS AGAINST FORUM RULES).edit...
This is not the first time you have made this request after a political comment.
Try following your own request next time.
 

atomicfront

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I think VW would have been better off if they just left the American market before this happened. Biggest car company in the world and they sell hardly any cars in the US. They make cars that handle well, accelerate decently and get incredible gas mileage and no one wanted to buy them anyway.
 

jims2321

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I think VW would have been better off if they just left the American market before this happened. Biggest car company in the world and they sell hardly any cars in the US. They make cars that handle well, accelerate decently and get incredible gas mileage and no one wanted to buy them anyway.

One of the reasons they sell here in the US, is because we are considered a marque market. Much of what sells here, drives demand in other markets like Japan, China and South America. Its all about the marketing. If Americans will buy it, we have to have it too.
 

GoFaster

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No, they shouldn't have left the North American market. They should have spent the reported $350-ish per vehicle that it would have cost to use SCR like Mercedes-Benz and BMW have successfully done. If that meant raising the price of the TDI cars by $500, so be it. It would have been less expensive than what they've gotten themselves into now.
 

TDIinMA

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No, they shouldn't have left the North American market. They should have spent the reported $350-ish per vehicle that it would have cost to use SCR like Mercedes-Benz and BMW have successfully done. If that meant raising the price of the TDI cars by $500, so be it. It would have been less expensive than what they've gotten themselves into now.
Ya think?

If it were only that simple, ...
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I remember when VW sent an engineer with a CR Jetta to the '07 Fest to show off their non SCR Clean Diesel. We were looking at the engine and someone took the cover off. The engineer freaked out and slapped it back on. VW is very protective of their technology and has had a big cultural problem with NIH. That's why they built the PDs, they didn't want to license CR technology. I heard the same about SCR. Not excusing, just explaining.

Regardless, I think VW makes the best cars in the market, or at least the only ones I care to own. First car I bought was a VW, and I've owned a lot of them, maybe 20. I'd hate to see them go away.
 

maybe368

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I am getting sick of people saying that cheating is ok or that they cheated worse than we did. It is a ridiculous. They cheated, they got caught, they confessed, they are being punished. Very simple, anything else is just mouth gas. To the mods, is all this political talk ok now? If so I would like to weigh in on some of the asinine political comments...Mark
 
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MBQ

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I am getting sick of people saying that cheating is ok or that they cheated worse than we did. It is a ridiculous. They cheated, they got caught, they confessed, they are being punished. Very simple, anything else is just mouth gas. To the mods, is all this political talk ok now? If so I would like to weigh in on some of the asinine political comments...Mark
Nobody should complain about punishing VW cheating. Some might complain picking&choosing. Double standard.
 
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nozel

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No, they shouldn't have left the North American market. They should have spent the reported $350-ish per vehicle that it would have cost to use SCR like Mercedes-Benz and BMW have successfully done. If that meant raising the price of the TDI cars by $500, so be it. It would have been less expensive than what they've gotten themselves into now.
VW did!
VW introduced a new engine/after-treatment package in model year 2015.
That package had to been 'IN DEVELOPMENT ' from about 2009 or earlier when they knew LNT would never work. I venture the cost was much higher than $300/vehicle...
 
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740GLE

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VW did!
VW introduced a new engine/after-treatment package in model year 2015.
Odd, they had an engine with after treatment in 2012.
 

Scratchy101

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Even the SCR treatment VW developed is cheating.
You would be refilling the adblue every couple of thousand miles if it was working correctly.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/12/strangely-volkswagens-defeat-device-normal-mode-video/

Only a small fraction of his normal, everyday driving was in “normal mode.” During “normal mode,” the selective catalytic reduction system used by Volkswagen would consume significantly more diesel emissions fluid than in “alternative” mode. Domke said that finding was supported by additional observations: his van used far less urea than he anticipated.
Sure they could make it work, but would consumers be willing to pay the price and inconvenience of refilling the SCR tank every few weeks?

Here is the entire presentation.
https://youtu.be/xZSU1FPDiao
 
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