Dieselgate: How much of a Performace/MPG hit are you willing to take?

[aja8888]

And VW doesn't have to show HP/Torque figures. We can complain our cars feel less powerful, but it will be difficult to prove. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it'll be difficult to prove to VW that they've sacrificed performance for emissions.

A dyno test should show the difference, I would guess.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Several people should dyno their cars now and then after the "fix." That way you'd have a consistent measure on the same equipment.

 

[nhkayaker17]

So were any of the 1.9L TDI's affected?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

No, nothing produced before '09. No 1.9s in '09 and later cars.

 

[Bob S.]

If VW sacrifices power OR economy they have a class action suit on their hands. They sold a product with certain specs and will have to compensate owners for the difference.

This would be one of many that will happen. You as the vehicle owner will receive very little compensation. The money will go to the attorneys and government entities. Simply look at prior class action settlements. Your "butt dyno" will draw little sympathy.

 

[aja8888]

Several people should dyno their cars now and then after the "fix." That way you'd have a consistent measure on the same equipment.

Rather than do that, I would use the advertised hp/torque ratings from VW at the time of sale. That's what we believe we have before the "fix" that is coming.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Rather than do that, I would use the advertised hp/torque ratings from VW at the time of sale. That's what we believe we have before the "fix" that is coming.

Yes, but you cannot replicate the conditions or the measurement strategy that provided those numbers. So if you dyno your car after the "fix" and get lower numbers it will be difficult to argue that it wasn't just because of different equipment, setup, engine in the car, etc.

I dyno'd my '12 Golf as a baseline when it had about 5K miles on it, expecting to tune it and get a before and after (I never did). It generated 125/225 at the wheels on a pretty conservative dyno. The operators were impressed at how close to the claimed figures they got. For comparison, a 225 HP Subaru would show 145 WHP on their dyno. That's a far larger drop than the TDI showed.

It's possible that, just like fuel economy, our cars delivered better power without full emissions compliance, and that they'll get closer to the claimed figures after the recall. But without a before and after measurement we won't know.

 

[njn63]

The Hyundai fuel economy settlement is probably a good reference for what we are discussing: https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/...s-mileage-lawsuit-owners-get-lump-sum-option/

This only addresses a fuel economy reduction but it's a pretty good precedent.

Rather than do that, I would use the advertised hp/torque ratings from VW at the time of sale. That's what we believe we have before the "fix" that is coming.

The problem is that many of us bought cars after test drives. Revising the horsepower later means the original purchase was made under false pretenses.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

The Hyundai fuel economy settlement is probably a good reference for what we are discussing: https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/...s-mileage-lawsuit-owners-get-lump-sum-option/

This only addresses a fuel economy reduction but it's a pretty good precedent.

The problem is that many of us bought cars after test drives. Revising the horsepower later means the original purchase was made under false pretenses.

I posted this link (below) in the main thread, but I think this is what they're getting at here (original purchase value versus present vehicle value).

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ecb-suspends-purchase-of-some-bonds-issued-by-volkswagen-1443379650

The unit’s lending and leasing contracts are backed by cars. If the value of the car drops, the financial services unit may have to book a write-down.
Volkswagen Financial Services AG, as it is formally known, is now evaluating whether it has to book charges on the collateral value of cars affected by a recall, a spokesman said. “We’re in talks with Volkswagen to evaluate the potential impact” and aim to produce results next week, he said.

Edit: Nope. I was corrected in the other thread. This has nothing to do with compensating customers.

 

[Bob S.]

From the perspective of the owners, I suspect that you are correct that the Hyundai situation is a good precedence for the owners of involved vehicles to expect. The question is, will VW have enough remaining to settle with the owners are the Feds, other governments and the attorneys have extorted "their" pound of flesh?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

The Hyundai/Kia article is interesting. And a maximum payout of $667 is a far cry from the 200% of market value number people are throwing around here. Probably more realistic.

 

[edge130]

I think Nj here is somewhat similar to California state emission regs.
I would think that I may not be able to renew my registration unless I have proof of the recall performed.

I'm not worried about passing the emissions test here, as my car was engineered to pass the test.

On a side note, I think Bosch is sort of pissed at VW for possibly altering or mis using their engine management software. Add that to the list of folks VW will have to face, possibly in a courtroom.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I think Bosch is sort of pissed at VW for possibly altering or mis using their engine management software. Add that to the list of folks VW will have to face, possibly in a courtroom.

Do we know who wrote the software? And who requested the defeat device? I think these are interesting questions. I doubt Bosch writes all its own engine management software. I suspect there are players involved here we don't know about yet.

 

[DubFamily]

There is a Car and Driver article that details the Bosch issue and statements; basically what they said is (paraphrased) "We build software to the manufacturer's specifications. What they do with it from there is out of our hands; though we specifically told VW this defeat software was illegal to use in anything but testing."

 

[MrSprdSheet]

If they retrofit full SCR systems, it won't consume 1 billion of the 7.25 they've reserved, according to estimates of $1,500 per car by BofA. That is about the only "out" to not reducing performance. Upping the fuel delivery to the lean NOx cat converter is a can of worms, especially since that may have been the software fix already unsuccessfully attempted for CARB. We find out 10/7.

Maybe "free" lifetime gift certificates, for urea refills?

 

[SilverGhost]

CA has and still does require emissions recalls/updates to be performed before the DMV will allow registration renewal. Used to work the same as insurance and smog check requirements - you brought proof of both along with your renewal notice to the DMV. They changed over to electronic proof of smog check and insurance - that information is transmitted directly to the DMV (IE when you get your smog check) and is already on file when you pay your renewal.

Not sure how the they currently do recall completion checks. We are supposed to put a sticker next to the emissions label under the hood, but the DMV may have access to manufacturers database of recalls completed by VIN.

Either way it is possible that EPA may push for legislation requiring all states follow suit and check for completed safety and emissions recalls before issuing renewals.

Jason

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

CA has and still does require emissions recalls/updates to be performed before the DMV will allow registration renewal.

Keep in mind that the EPA has not issued a recall yet. May not for some time, as VW has to have a plan approved and ready to go before they issue an official recall. In the meantime you shouldn't have any issues with registration renewals. What I wonder is if they'll discontinue the stop sales order before the recall is complete. I would hope so, because I've read in more than one place that the recall could take over a year.

 

[SilverGhost]

I would hope they lift the stop sale sooner than later. Especially since the new cars are not technically part of the problem.

This is starting to feel like that big ignition coil recall that involved cars back from '99 up to '12 or so. Our rep at the time was warning us to hire more people to cover the load......then maybe 1 or 2 cars a week showed up. Technically a lot of cars were affected, but most were way out of warranty already and a lot had been sold and new owner info wasn't up to date.

Even if they get a solution out tomorrow that's still several hundred thousand cars to fix. It will be released in waves, most likely by production dates, and be rolled out over a couple months. My bet is that CA, and areas that require emissions will be hit hardest by owners needing the update to get their car registered. And while that is going on the rest of the country will be split into the groups of "you ain't doin' chit to my car" and "Oh my gawd, fix my car, FIX IT!!"

Recent speech to the workers at Wolfsburg by Matthias Müller,

Müller said that while in many instances a software update will be sufficient, some vehicles will also require hardware modifications.

Link here

I'm thinking if they can get the car to pass emissions with a software cheat, then the car is technically capable, AS IS. The trade off is how much power/MPG penalty. But one point I haven't heard is will they extend the warranty on components (IE: NOx cat) that may now have a shorter useful life? Also they could issue fuel(or plain gift cards) for the lost MPG like Hyundia did.

I have a '13 Beetle in Nashville (Davison county has emissions test). If they force a change to these cars and it adversely effects mine, it maybe the time to check out a different car

Jason

EDIT:

In some cases hardware changes will also be necessary. In vehicles with 1.2-liter and 1.6-liter engines, which aren’t sold in the U.S., a hardware change will likely be necessary because a fuel injection pump has to be replaced to ensure a smooth ride, Mr. Buhlmann said. In Europe, vehicles with 2-liter engines will only need a software update, but it isn’t clear whether that would suffice in the U.S. due to different standards.

Link here

 

[CraziFuzzy]

The problem you all will have, is if the government says that each and every one must be fixed. If not fixed, crushed. The nuke they can drop is if not fixed or crushed, can not register anymore. That is the game over bomb. No registration, the car will be useless. I feel for you guys, really do...

I'd say about 15% of the cars in my town aren't registered anyway...