Dieselgate: How much of a Performace/MPG hit are you willing to take?

[IronJoe]

Dieselgate: How much of a Performance/MPG hit are you willing to take?

I was having this discussion with a fellow gearhead and I thought I'd poll the resident community - with the supposition that some software/hardware/etc recall may affect the performance and/or MPG of your TDI, how much of a hit are you willing to take?

I purchased my 2010 Cup Edition mainly because of its impressive blend of performance (I'm a performance car enthusiast) and fuel economy (I drive a lot, and have put over 40,000 on my car in less than two years).

Horsepower:
As we know, these cars aren't stellar in the HP department. That's of course not why we bought them, but in certain driving conditions the lowly 140bhp is an obvious weakness. Could you live with any less?

Torque:
Ahh, that glorious torque. One drive and you're hooked With 236 ft-lbs on tap, it's a genuine riot! So, if a recall were to inhibit this engine's ability to make all torque promised, how bad would it be? Could you take a 20-30 ft-lb reduction and still have a "fun to drive" car?

Economy:
Of course, one of the main reasons we bought TDIs and not Camaros. As many have seen, the real-world MPG figures for the CR TDI motor are much better than the EPA rated figures (30 city/42 hwy). Many have found (myself included) that the TDI can beat these figures by double-digits!

Since we are all used to "underrated" MPG figures, what if the "fix" for these cars brought them down to the "actual" EPA rated figures? Would you be satisfied? What if it dipped even lower, say, a 5mpg reduction in both City and Highway?

Reliability:
As we know, the EGR system on these cars is tempermental at best, and the DPF is an expensive weak-point in the emissions system. (I just recently had mine replaced, luckily I was still under the 80,000 emissions warranty). Would you be satisfied continuing to drive your TDI if the maintenance of these cars were adversely affected?


What say you, diesel-heads? Are there other factors that you are considering?

 

[Jettawolfs98]

i will keep my car not matter what, for me the quality of the car still the same.
we might lost some mpg we have to wait and see.

 

[newbeetleman]

I won't get any update unless I have no other choice! Then I will complain like crazy (complain was not my originally word, it was ** out) because the parts that have been shut off all this time will for sure have issues. My car is out of warranty and I am not getting stuck with expensive repairs because of VW "cheating".

 

[Spiked1Z]

up to 35 times high NOx emissions? I'd bet they detune and... interesting that the BMW they tested met all emissions requirements... wonder what other clean diesels will come up dirty

 

[pparks1]

Horsepower:
As we know, these cars aren't stellar in the HP department. That's of course not why we bought them, but in certain driving conditions the lowly 140bhp is an obvious weakness. Could you live with any less?

Yes, could easily live with less. I don't drive my car hard, I don't accelerate fast, and I rarely go over the speed limit.

Torque:
Ahh, that glorious torque. One drive and you're hooked With 236 ft-lbs on tap, it's a genuine riot! So, if a recall were to inhibit this engine's ability to make all torque promised, how bad would it be? Could you take a 20-30 ft-lb reduction and still have a "fun to drive" car?

Again, based on my driving, less torque would not be a big deal for me. I've never sat back saying "Oh the glorious torque". This car doesn't feel any different to me than my 97 dodge stratus, or my 2002 V6 Passat. My Hemi based Dodge Magnum, now that car had a lot of power.

Economy:
Of course, one of the main reasons we bought TDIs and not Camaros. As many have seen, the real-world MPG figures for the CR TDI motor are much better than the EPA rated figures (30 city/42 hwy). Many have found (myself included) that the TDI can beat these figures by double-digits!

Since we are all used to "underrated" MPG figures, what if the "fix" for these cars brought them down to the "actual" EPA rated figures? Would you be satisfied? What if it dipped even lower, say, a 5mpg reduction in both City and Highway?

This is all that i really care about. I average around 42-43 in the summer. My old 2002 V6 averaged around 24. I wouldn't want to be less than a gasser, there really wouldn't be any point to having the diesel and dealing with the stinky fuel, the fuel filters, the single pumps, the increased cost of the fuel, etc.

Reliability:
As we know, the EGR system on these cars is tempermental at best, and the DPF is an expensive weak-point in the emissions system. (I just recently had mine replaced, luckily I was still under the 80,000 emissions warranty). Would you be satisfied continuing to drive your TDI if the maintenance of these cars were adversely affected?


What say you, diesel-heads? Are there other factors that you are considering?

Obviously I don't want to spend more on maintenance. I'd love it if I spent next to nothing on maintenance.

 

[newbeetleman]

I was reading today that a software update has been tried 2 times, and both times it has failed to fix this issue. This is looking like this is going to be very very costly for VW! It very well could spell the end of VW in the US, which would not be good. There is talk that an option MIGHT be a buy back, though highly unlikely.

 

[narongc73]

Why even bother with the recall? Leave it as-is. The world ain't gonna end.

 

[newbeetleman]

Why even bother with the recall? Leave it as-is. The world ain't gonna end.

just a guess on my part, but I bet they can't just leave it alone! If I am required to get this update then I will be looking for some kind of compensation because my car is out of warranty.

I seriously doubt the government is going to leave it as-is.

 

[newbeetleman]

up to 35 times high NOx emissions? I'd bet they detune and... interesting that the BMW they tested met all emissions requirements... wonder what other clean diesels will come up dirty

That is what I have read.. and if a person has a tune it will be removed at the cost of the owner.

 

[DubFamily]

I will not accept any drop in performance or MPG. I drive at or near 40,000 miles a year; so my car is already pushing 130,000 miles and well out of warranty. There is no way in hell I will be getting any reflash or recall done that cuts the performance or economy of the car I bought.

 

[Marthy]

My car will stay as is for as long as I can. If I am obligated to get a VW reflash... I'll ship me ECU to get a proper tune right away.

 

[Spiked1Z]

I was reading today that a software update has been tried 2 times, and both times it has failed to fix this issue. This is looking like this is going to be very very costly for VW! It very well could spell the end of VW in the US, which would not be good. There is talk that an option MIGHT be a buy back, though highly unlikely.

Just think if this is the end of VW in the US our TDI's in a few years may be worth ALOT more

 

[DubFamily]

Let's put it this way...


Here is the new Europlate I am ordering to put on my car:

 

[newbeetleman]

Just think if this is the end of VW in the US our TDI's in a few years may be worth ALOT more

haha, but you won't be able to drive them because of emissions output.

 

[chudzikb]

The problem you all will have, is if the government says that each and every one must be fixed. If not fixed, crushed. The nuke they can drop is if not fixed or crushed, can not register anymore. That is the game over bomb. No registration, the car will be useless. I feel for you guys, really do...

 

[tdiatlast]

Jeez, guys...give it a rest. So much hand-wringing, like a women's bridge club!

 

[newbeetleman]

No hand-wringing, just discussing the situation at hand.


I just read the Hyundai is recalling 470,000 Sonatas to replace the engines. If they can do it and are still operating, then VW can do better than a software update that kind of ruins the purpose of these cars.

 

[Bob S.]

The problem you all will have, is if the government says that each and every one must be fixed. If not fixed, crushed. The nuke they can drop is if not fixed or crushed, can not register anymore. That is the game over bomb. No registration, the car will be useless. I feel for you guys, really do...

For the owner of the affected cars in the US, the above is the the club.

My car will stay as is for as long as I can. If I am obligated to get a VW reflash... I'll ship me ECU to get a proper tune right away.

Marty's approach makes sense, only if the EPA & state testing facilities do not test actual driving. It will be curious to see if the tuners will service these cars. I remember when the 09s 1st came out, some were wary to. Very wise in hind site.

IMHO, the it really doesn't matter what the results of this poll is, the dollars invested in the affected cars is minor compared to the money that will be thrown at it by VW & the Feds. Certainly there will be class action litigation, if such has not already been filed. The results of those typically are years or profitable legal work that results in huge fees for the attorneys and pennies on the dollar for the owner, and usually, just a warrantee extension or credit towards the purchase of their defendants product.

It will be interesting to see if the EPA expands this to more stringent inspection of the entire diesel fleet.

 

[narongc73]

haha, but you won't be able to drive them because of emissions output.

We can certainly drive the ones that isn't on the list. What I don't understand is that there is no state requirement to have emissions testing on diesels. At least not where I live. Well maybe Cali. Screw the EPA.

 

[njn63]

The problem you all will have, is if the government says that each and every one must be fixed. If not fixed, crushed. The nuke they can drop is if not fixed or crushed, can not register anymore. That is the game over bomb. No registration, the car will be useless. I feel for you guys, really do...

To the best of my knowledge this has never happened and I doubt this will be the first time. States control vehicle registration and the EPA is a federal organization.

My plan is to not participate in the recall as I don't see a way they can fix it without negatively impacting the ownership experience. If they figure out a way to force me to perform the recall and the fix impacts mpg/power, I will send my ECU out for a tune. No big deal.

 

[Sunnyb]

I will resist taking the car in if I can. I'm happy with it as it its.

 

[newbeetleman]

We can certainly drive the ones that isn't on the list. What I don't understand is that there is no state requirement to have emissions testing on diesels. At least not where I live. Well maybe Cali. Screw the EPA.

yep, we sure can.. and I agree, screw the EPA.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Things are very slow to change. Massachusetts introduced checking for emissions readiness three or four years ago. They don't test outputs. I'm not sure any state does, although some have opacity tests and check for OE equipment.

It's pretty clear that CA will refuse to renew registrations on cars without the proof that the recall has been completed. Other states may follow, as this is far easier than equipping the state with emission testing facilities.

I found the power output of my '12 Golf to be adequate...just. And that's in the lightest of all common rail TDIs. It paled in comparison to my modified ALH. And low speed torque was poor compared to my '97 Passat, which is stock (with all emissions equipment in place) except for a mild chip tune. I've driven the '15 GSW pretty extensively and I feel its performance, especailly at low speeds, is better than the '09-14s.

These are not performance cars. You can spend thousands of dollars on modifications and they'll perform similarly to a stock GTI. VW would be well served to sacrifice power for economy, if they have that choice. How often do people use all their car's power in daily driving anyway?

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

We can certainly drive the ones that isn't on the list. What I don't understand is that there is no state requirement to have emissions testing on diesels. At least not where I live. Well maybe Cali. Screw the EPA.

Some counties in my state require it. I dont currently have to deal with that. I have no idea what they're actually testing for though.

 

[aja8888]

These are not performance cars. You can spend thousands of dollars on modifications and they'll perform similarly to a stock GTI. VW would be well served to sacrifice power for economy, if they have that choice. How often do people use all their car's power in daily driving anyway?

That's a good question. I have had a Corvette and a few really strong Mustangs over the years. Those were performance cars and you could easily snap your neck back into the headrest without trying hard. Loved them all!

Now I switch back and forth between our 2013 Hyundai Santa Fe and my 2014 Passat TDI. Both cars have a purpose. Wife likes the Santa Fe for normal driving, hauling crap, etc. It's a dud, performance wise but gets about 25 MPG. A true grocery getter.

The Passat is my escape to a fun car without having to drive a Vette or other really fun car. It has ample torque, great FE, and room, plus it's a great highway car. Performance, not used much for that, other than when entering a highway and need the torque.

It's all about choices and lifestyle. I'll keep the Passat, thank you!

 

[tdiatlast]

....To the best of my knowledge this has never happened and I doubt this will be the first time....

...uhhh...whatever you say, I guess...
We're all so confused...

 

[njn63]

It's pretty clear that CA will refuse to renew registrations on cars without the proof that the recall has been completed. Other states may follow, as this is far easier than equipping the state with emission testing facilities.

CA is going to fail emissions testing without the recall being performed (from what I understand). Without a passed emissions test you can not register the car.

I don't see a way that non emissions testing states will enforce it in this way.

These are not performance cars. You can spend thousands of dollars on modifications and they'll perform similarly to a stock GTI. VW would be well served to sacrifice power for economy, if they have that choice. How often do people use all their car's power in daily driving anyway?

If VW sacrifices power OR economy they have a class action suit on their hands. They sold a product with certain specs and will have to compensate owners for the difference.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

CA is going to fail emissions testing without the recall being performed (from what I understand). Without a passed emissions test you can not register the car.

I don't see a way that non emissions testing states will enforce it in this way.

What I've seen is that CA will require owners show proof that the recall has been completed. Doesn't matter how the car does on the SMOG test. Other states could easily to the same.

And VW doesn't have to show HP/Torque figures. We can complain our cars feel less powerful, but it will be difficult to prove. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it'll be difficult to prove to VW that they've sacrificed performance for emissions.

 

[njn63]

What I've seen is that CA will require owners show proof that the recall has been completed. Doesn't matter how the car does on the SMOG test. Other states could easily to the same.

I'm not sure how CA works but in IL they only want to see the paperwork that it has been completed/passed. The DMV really doesn't want to get involved with enforcement of something like this and they haven't in the past (think of how many recalls have been done because cars are actually dangerous to other drivers).

edit: For clarity, IL does not have emissions testing for diesel cars. We do have it for OBD2 gasoline powered cars.

And VW doesn't have to show HP/Torque figures. We can complain our cars feel less powerful, but it will be difficult to prove. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it'll be difficult to prove to VW that they've sacrificed performance for emissions.

You're talking about millions of dollars for some lawyers. There will be before/after dynos done.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

These are not performance cars. You can spend thousands of dollars on modifications and they'll perform similarly to a stock GTI. VW would be well served to sacrifice power for economy, if they have that choice. How often do people use all their car's power in daily driving anyway?

I have one section on my daily commute where I have to merge into traffic going ~60 MPH and only have a couple hundred feet to build up speed (from a standstill) before merging. Much less power than I've got and it will make that maneuver more hazardous (or I'll just have to sit there for several minutes waiting until there's zero traffic on the horizon). Kinda like merging into traffic with a big-rig.

I bought my car because it got 42 MPG (highway) AND pulled pretty decent off the line (for what it is). I won't be pleased if I have to sacrifice a bunch of power because the manufacturer hoodwinked me into buying a car that they figured they could just detune to meet emissions at a later date.