Diesel vs. Hybrid emmissions compared

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Kabin

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tsingtao said:
Yes, they also started that nonsense here in Arizona. As soon as they let hybrids in the carpool lane their sales took off. They get a blue license plate with clouds (to symbolize a clean sky) that says "Alternative fuel Vehicle." What garbage!. It's all feel good run amuck.
That's the main reason my wife bought one. Saves oodles of commute time each week. It's a great deal if your time is valuable! :)
 

nicklockard

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PeakoilrideDiesels said:
obviously pollute more than gas engines, you can't argue about that. People also are buying into the hype about both diesels and hybrids (I am one of them).
Look at the broader perspective of total well-to-wheels-to end of life cycle.

Read up on wxman's blog for a start :)

wxman, what happened to your .pdf papers linked in your profile?
 
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hevster1

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nortones2 said:
The Prius has 168 1.2v cells, in a pack weighing 99lbs. The cells can be removed individually if defective, and the whole set can be recycled. Pollution? Only in the propaganda re Sudbury, Ontario, which is just one of many facilities producing nickel, the vast majority of which goes into mundane items such as spoons! Homework required before spouting, perhaps?:rolleyes:
Not here in the US. You MUST change the whole battery. Reason? At first they decided to let technicians take the batteries apart and replace only the bad cells. However you must let the battery sit for at least 4 hours to let any gases which have built up dissipate. Try to tell that to a waiting customer. Otherwise you run the risk of explosion. In my Prius class I asked the liability question and was quickly shut down by the instructor who stated "we do not talk about that". I nearly was thrown out of the class when I pressed the issue of safety. I found out I wasn't the only one who asked the question as 1 week later a bulletin came out changing the policy to full replacement. I did ask and it was confirmed that numerous technicians were concerned. That was a factor as if one exploded after that much concern was shown, that would have cost Toyota lots of money in lawsuits. After the recall campaign which required you glue the buss bars it was over as well as there was no way possible to separate the cells. Yes they can be recycled but not 100% is.
BTW the cells are 7.2 volt not 1.2 and on the early there are 38 for 273.6 volts and on the late there are 28 for 201.6 volts. Homework required before spouting perhaps back at you!
 
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nortones2

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"BTW the cells are 7.2 volt not 1.2 and on the early there are 38 for 273.6 volts and on the late there are 28 for 201.6 volts. Homework required before spouting perhaps back at you!"

Ha, very good. Except that each module (late model), 28 in all, contains 6 cells. Each cell has 1.2 volts. Multiplied by 6 gives you the 7.2 volts per module. I was mistaken re the cell, but the modules can be replaced: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/09/23/063663.html

Back to class for you, I'm afraid:)
 
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MPLSTDI

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BTW The bought both hype I own a Prius and a TDI!

well I bought both cars, I didn't fall for any hype.... I bought both cars for high MPGs
 

wxman

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nicklockard said:
Look at the broader perspective of total well-to-wheels-to end of life cycle.

Read up on wxman's blog for a start :)

wxman, what happened to your .pdf papers linked in your profile?
Nick - is this what you're looking for?
 

bakerinva

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Another thing (besides hyribs being allowed to drive in carpool lanes with only one person in Cali) is that if you bought a hybrid, you can get a tax break! The government had better do that with the new diesels coming out soon because they will get fantastic mileage while producing less emissions that current diesels on the market!
 

nicklockard

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wxman said:
Nick - is this what you're looking for?
Yes, thanks :) Can you host a link either in your sig or profile? It's really good information that more people need to look over.
 

Kabin

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bakerinva said:
Another thing (besides hyribs being allowed to drive in carpool lanes with only one person in Cali) is that if you bought a hybrid, you can get a tax break! The government had better do that with the new diesels coming out soon because they will get fantastic mileage while producing less emissions that current diesels on the market!
As I recall states are taking us gov lead by requiring 40% improved fuel economy versus the gas versioned vehicle for hov priviledge. Hard enough to do with gas hybrid, not likely with diesel alone. Note pruis doesn't have a gas only version.
 

rotarykid

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Want to talk about pollution take a good look at the moon scape left in northern Ontario Canada from the hole in the ground where all that nickle is being dug up for the battery's in your high tech hybrid wonders .

Diesels are the only option currently we have to reduce oil consumption today . Also high tech diesels can accomplish this quickest and for the cheapest cost monetarily & to the environment .
 

rotarykid

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If we really want to talk about fuel consummation & emissions a small displacement 1.2-1.5 L gasoline engine & manual trans in a small class car . This setup is far more efficient & cleaner pollution wise & to the environment as a hole then one of the current hybrids running around with all that extra hybrid system weight they are carrying around .

As has been said the pollution produced in the manufacture & disposal of the batteries must be considered if you are calling hybrids clean .
 

nortones2

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What pollution? The pictures of Sudbury Ontario were taken 30 years ago, and the damage done then, since remedied, had nothing whatever to do with Prius, as nickel is used in stainless steel, alloys etc. NiMh batteries are a minor aspect, and their use began much later. The picture used by anti-Prius factions were withdrawn: here is the grovelling retraction posted by one of the perpetrators: http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages...ews.html?in_article_id=417227&in_page_id=1770
 

rotarykid

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Not a lot of nickle on the planet , the big deposit in the Sudbury area is from a meteor impact . If the hybrid craze takes off where do you think that nickle will come from ?? sure most of that mess is from the past mining but future mining isn't going to be without impact on the environment .
 

TurbinePower

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Kabin said:
As I recall states are taking us gov lead by requiring 40% improved fuel economy versus the gas versioned vehicle for hov priviledge. Hard enough to do with gas hybrid, not likely with diesel alone. Note pruis doesn't have a gas only version.
Then, by my way of thinking, the Prius should be incapable of qualifying because you have no standard of comparison. One should not assume qualifications are met simply because you cannot verify them; you wouldn't let just any handy looking man do brain surgery without checking up and making sure he's actually a neurosurgeon, would you?
 

nortones2

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nickel is not a rare element!

rotarykid said:
Not a lot of nickle on the planet , the big deposit in the Sudbury area is from a meteor impact . If the hybrid craze takes off where do you think that nickle will come from ?? sure most of that mess is from the past mining but future mining isn't going to be without impact on the environment .
Dear me: the ratio of nickel usage in batteries is a tiny fraction of nickel used as an alloy for engineering purpose. Nickel is also derived from igneous deposits, not just from a meteorite impact, the validity of which has been disputed. It occurs in the earths mantle. Lots of it. See the Australian article: http://www.australianminesatlas.gov.au/info/factsheets/nickel.jsp:

http://archive.xstrata.com/falconbr...om/our_business/nickel/operations/sudbury.htm
 

StephF

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I went on the EPA website and looked at my 2006 TDI 'green rating'...it scores a 1 for pollution, but an 8 for green house gas emissions...

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do

That of course doesn't factor in my B5/ULSD fuel...

Does anyone have any data on ULSD emissions, with or without biodiesel added? I wonder just how competetive that would make a TDI in these rating systems.

StephF
 

wxman

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StephF said:
Does anyone have any data on ULSD emissions, with or without biodiesel added? I wonder just how competetive that would make a TDI in these rating systems.

StephF
According to EPA, use of ULSD alone reduces PM (mass?) emissions by 10% (http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/4d84d5d9a719de8c85257018005467c2/14a31fd9b69459a3852572130061ae24!OpenDocument).

Reduction of the smallest particles (nanoparticles) by a factor of between 4 and 10+ have been reported because there is significantly less sulfur oxides to nucleate in the exhaust gases (e.g., Jian Wang, John Storey, Norberto Domingo, Shean Huff, John Thomas, and Brian West, "Studies of Diesel Engine Particle Emissions During Transient Operations Using an Engine Exhaust Particle Sizer." Aerosol Science and Technology, 40:1002–1015, 2006).

My personal opinion is that these "green ratings" are just about worthless, if not worse than nothing, at least in comparing gas vs. diesel vehicles because there are too many factors that are not considered.
 

Yelram

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If they would just make a diesel hybrid, you would see how much could be saved, and how much pollution would be reduced.
 

GoFaster

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... but how much is it going to cost, and will anyone pay that cost!

Diesel + electric hybrid powertrain is already in use in city buses and urban delivery vehicles. The larger size, urban driving patterns, and high usage factors of the vehicles makes the economics worthwhile in those cases.
 

Wobisobi

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Wanna TDI said:
Any one care to comment on this quote from a hybrid chat site:

Sorry but as far as I can see "clean diesel" is nothing more than marketing hype. ...
This is certainly not the product of a data analyst. One question I have is where the verifiable test results for the diesels with bluetec are or what ever they want to call it? It is obvious to me that a diesel that can pass 50 states emissions would have much different results that the ones shown in this odd little post.
 

mijbo11

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nortones2 said:
Dear me: the ratio of nickel usage in batteries is a tiny fraction of nickel used as an alloy for engineering purpose. Nickel is also derived from igneous deposits, not just from a meteorite impact, the validity of which has been disputed. It occurs in the earths mantle. Lots of it. See the Australian article: http://www.australianminesatlas.gov.au/info/factsheets/nickel.jsp:

http://archive.xstrata.com/falconbridge/www.falconbridge.com/our_business/nickel/operations/sudbury.htm
How much energy is used in the mining, milling and refining processes?
heavy metals are extremly toxic. more so than the particulates out of a diesel. you want facts its all here just read with an open mind.
 

nortones2

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Perhaps car bodies and high strength parts should be made from GRP, as the Trabant. Jet aircraft turbines can be just a little tricky without nickel in the alloy for the blades, but hey, lets just eliminate all nickel usage. Fancy eating without cutlery?
 

NFSTDI

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No matter how you slice it mining is a messy and dangerous pursuit. The problems with nickel mining are not limited to Canada.

Petroleum is a dangerous substance as well.

The bottom line is that unless we all give up our cars any reduction is a good thing.

I find it annoying that cars with "clean air" stickers are allowed to drive solo in the carpool lane while me and my passenger have to sit in traffic like everyone else. However, I do appreciate that any effort to reduce traffic and emissions helps to keep the air I breath cleaner than the air over Mexico City or LA for that matter.

Unfortunately the car companies have deep pockets and congress responds to special interests. That means all of these problems are likely to be with us for some time.
 

KentSzabo

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My '02 TDI according to the EPA site mentioned above gets a 9 out of 10 on Greenhouse gasses. Isn't that we should really be concerned about rather than some carbon soot coming out of the tailpipe that has NO bearing on CO2 production. Soot and Nitrous Oxide are not greenhouse gasses and are not going to cause the global temperature and seas to rise. Further that 9 is based on the EPA mileage estimates for my vehicle, when in actuality mine gets better than their estimates.

Model Engine Fuel Trans Drive Air Pollution Score Fuel Economy (mpg) Greenhouse Gas Score
..........................................10 = Best ............City / Hwy ....................10 = Best
VOLKSWAGEN Golf 1.9L4 cylDiesel Manual 5 speed2WD
35 / 44


Here is my actual mileage from 2007 that I keep in GasPrices.com, and that is on a car that just rolled over 140000 miles.
Summary for 2007
Total Quantity ......Total .. Average..... Average Fuel ....Total #
Purchased (Gallons) Cost ($) Price ($/G) Economy (MPG) Fill-ups
475.107 .............$1,411.18..2.967 ..........47.33 ............37
 
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miscrms

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Greetings to the list. I'm the guy that posted the original data on the hybrid list :eek:

>Pauses for tumbleweed to blow past, as old west show down music starts up in the background......

Well this is awkward. I would be very pleased to have a good discussion on this topic, and very pleasantly surprised if that is possible :)

This analysis was done in the interest of considering future vehicle options. As an engineer, I did what I usually do. I looked for raw data from a seemingly trustworthy source and I analyzed it. I had no particular bias or opinion going into the analysis, just wanted to see if a diesel might be a good choice for my next vehicle purchase (as well as maybe converting over my old land rover). All the data shown is from the EPA light duty vehicle certification reports. The exception is the CO2 data, which of course the EPA doesn't require data for. For CO2, I used the EPA ('08 calc) combined mileage with the EPA's conversion factors of of 8788 g/gal for gasoline and 10084 g/gal for diesel. I realise there are many people that do better than EPA in TDIs, just as there are in most hybrids. If there is a large database of tdi mileage data available I would be interested to see if there is any disproportionate differences between real world and EPA.

Based on this data analysis, I became very concerned about a number of things I was seeing:

CO2. Originally I compared the Jetta TDI wagon to the Prius, but based on the combined interior and cargo capacity the regular Jetta at 107 cu ft. to the Prius's 112cu ft. is probably more fair. Based on an EPA comb of 46mpg, the Prius would come in at 191.0g/mi. EPA comb for the Jetta is 33mpg, which would be 305.6g/mi. If the real world average is closer to the old EPA av of 38, that would be 265.4g/mi. This would put it 39-60% higher than the Prius. This correlates pretty well to the UK data for the Jetta 1.9 TDI of 156g/km vs. the Prius's 104 g/km which would be 50% higher.
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=10982
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=19028

CO. At 0.11g/mi vs. 0.1g/mi I was a little surprised the Jetta TDI was worse on CO than the Prius, though only by 10%. What was of much more concern is the that the new Mercedes E320 Bluetec comes in at 2.88g/mi, and thats on ULSD! The E320 is certainly a higher performance car than the Prius, but the Lexus GS450h Hybrid is certainly more in that league, and yet comes in at 0.01g/mi. 288X worse than an equivilent hybrid strikes me as a bit excessive. I am hoping this is not indicative of what is to come in the new VWs. On regular diesel the E320 was up to 3.27g/mi.

NOx. Not entirely unexpected, the Jetta TDI came in much higher on NOx, at 0.31g/mi vs. 0.01g/mi for the Prius. Was again disappointed the newer E320 Bluetec still came in at 0.165g/mi (ULSD), while the GS450h is right with the Prius at 0.01g/mi.

NMOG. I was also surprised the TDI came in worse than the Prius on this rating too, at 0.01984g/mi vs. 0.009g/mi. The E320 Bluetec on ULSD did worse still at 0.0814g/mi vs. 0.008g/mi for the GS450h.

HC-NM+NOX-COMP. I freely admit I don't understand this rating entirely. I assume its a combination of NOx and Hydrocarbons, which is of interest as these are two of the things that react to form smog? At 0.748g/mi, the TDI was looking pretty bad here compared to the Prius's 0.03g/mi. On the next gen of technology, and despite the lower mpgs, the Camry Hybrid brings this down to 0.01g/mi. The E320 Bluetec comes in at 0.169g/mi on regular diesel. The GS450h comes in at 0.02g/mi.

PM. This does seem to be getting under control on the new diesels, though I am concerned that we are not testing for <2.5um on both diesels and gasoline engines.

Overall, it seems to me that the diesels did similar to much worse in every single emissions criteria measured by the EPA. That concerns me a lot. I live in Phoenix, which like LA still has a lot of serious air quaity issues, particularly for children (like my two year old.) I cannot see based on this data how a large scale move towards diesels rather than hybrids is going to help that situation. If the diesels seemed to be lower in CO2 or petroleum usage, at least one could argue global warming or energy independance over air quality but that doesn't seem to be the case either.

I'll try and go through and respond to some of the individual comments so far in my next post. Man I hope this flame resistant suit is worth what I paid for it ;) Wait a minute, Made In China! Uh-oh......

Rob
 

miscrms

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4Gman said:
Looks like a bunch of self serving BS distorted statistics. I hope you dont honestly believe this hybrid hype. This "analysis" coincidentally does not include many factors.
I would be interested to know what about it is hype? There are lots of factors not incuded on both sides I'm sure. Like the Prius needing nothing but oil & filters until 120k when they recommend new spark plugs. This was simply an "analysis" of the EPA reported data for tailpipe emissions.
wxman said:
According to NREL, many of the hybrids typically operate in the all-electric over much of the FTP75 driving cycle. Thus they spend a considerable amount of time emitting NO pollutants in the FTP75 test.
I would be interested to see the referrences for that, as it seems unlikely. The Prius's battery only contains enough juice to run ~1 mile at these speeds, and will not do that of its own accord. Only when modified with an EV override button not present on US models. Over the 11 mile test the battery should cycle up and down over a small portion of its range much as it would in actual driving conditions. If anything I would think it could be pessemistic as I don't know that the Prius would get the benefit of its regenerative braking to help charge the battery back up if its not actually moving.
wxman said:
Toyota concedes that there is more energy required in the materials production stage for its hybrids (they take more energy to produce than a Hummer!).
Sorry I believe this is totaly bogus. The numbers I have seen are in the 20-30% more than a non-hybrid of the same size/weight. The Hummer claim came from a group called CNW who turned out to be on the Detroit bankrole. After this came to light, along with a number of other refuting studies, many publications published retractions. One of my personal favorite details was that they apparently took all of the time, effort, energy and money associated with the development of hybrid technology, and divided it by the number of hybrids on the road at that time (well under 100,000 as I recall). Apparently the 900,000+ built since then are free of any development costs? One might have thought some sort of conservative guess of how many hybrid vehicles might go on to be made might have been in order? :rolleyes:
http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/september/hummervprius.html
Dan_Ruddock said:
Absurd!! for some people if the thing runs on a fossil fuel it will never be clean enough and unless the current measuring equipment says the emissions are zero then god forbid using it on the road. If we really want to clean up the air why don't we go after the real problem which is old cars, big rigs and heavy industry. For some CARB politicians they justify there usefulness by coming up with the latest overkill standards. Maybe they should spend there time coming up with ever more demanding fuel mileage standards which would service the public in a useful way. Dan
I guess I currently see it just the opposite. If company A makes a product that puts out 10-300 times more harmful stuff than company Bs product, I'll probably be inclinced to give company B my business. As long as climate change and air/water quality continue to be major problems, I'll probably continue to feel that way.
tsingtao said:
Yes, they also started that nonsense here in Arizona. As soon as they let hybrids in the carpool lane their sales took off. They get a blue license plate with clouds (to symbolize a clean sky) that says "Alternative fuel Vehicle." What garbage!. It's all feel good run amuck.
Well, one of the main reasons for carpool lanes was supposed to be to reduce smog and air pollution. Based on the current data, it looks like the Prius is consistent with that goal.
KentSzabo said:
According to www.volkswagen.de the Golf with a 1.9 TDI produces 132 g/km of carbon dioxide this is 212.432 g/mi. Therefore all of the TDI's running around the U.S. today are more carbon conservative than the hybrids mentioned above. Also the above site states the Golf BlueMotion produces 115 g/km or 185 g/mi.

That bogus figure of 191 g/mi for the 2006 Toyota Prius above was based on the old EPA mileage figure of 55 mpg. The reality of it is the new EPA mileage figure is 16% less, therefore the carbon dioxide emmisions goes up to 222 g/mi.
As mentioned above, UK data for 1.9 TDI Jetta is 156g/km, while Prius is 104g/km. Prius CO2 was calculated on EPA '08 combined 46mpg. 8788g/gal / 46 m/gal = 191.04g/mi. As a Prius has the same cargo volume and more passenger volume compared to a Jetta, I would claim it is the more fair comparison than the Golf. That said, the smallest, slowest, cleanest TDI, the Polo Blue Motion just matches the Prius at 104g/km assuming you give the Polo AC.
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=19905
TurbinePower said:
Isn't the latest cancer/carcinogenic PM research showing that it's those tiny subfine and ultrafine particulates that are really doing the damage anyway? IE what gas vehicles have been emitting all the time?
Unfortunately isn't this also what a DPF turns larger particles into :(
wxman said:
Actually, that is one of the biggest reasons why gasoline vehicles have a relatively high adverse environmental impact. Gasoline is an extremely volatile substance. A recent study in Southern California shows that about 1/3 (between 31% and 34%) of ambient NMHC is from evaporative emissions EXTERNAL to the vehicles itself (Steven G. Brown, Anna Frankel and Hilary R. Hafner; “Source apportionment of VOCs in the Los Angeles area using positive matrix factorization”. Atmospheric Environment, Volume 41, Issue 2, January 2007, Pages 227-237). Overall, gasoline vehicles are responsible for about 80% (!) of ambient NMHC (22%-24% from exhaust, ~25% from evaporative emissions from the vehicle itself), but even if vehicle NMHC emissions are reduced to ZERO (i.e., ZEV or Bin 1), they’ll still be responsible for ~33% of the ambient NMHC just from the handling of the fuel they require (biogenic VOCs only account for 1%-3% of the ambient NMHC in Southern California). NMHC not only is the primary contributor to ground-level ozone (smog), it oxidizes to increasingly lower vapor pressure oxidation products…forming secondary particulate matter (SOA). Most of this PM is ultrafine and/or nanoparticles.
Ok, now that is interesting. I definately need to do some research in this area. I wonder how this compares for a vehicle like the Prius that uses a tank bladder to pretty much eliminate evaporative losses, and has very low tail pipe HC emissions as shown above? I agree this seems to be an inherant challenge with gasoline.
hevster1 said:
Since when don't gas engines give of CO? I am a licensed inspector for gods sake and I am Toyota Hybrid certified. That is the nature of the beast. When we were still doing IM240 or ASM 50-15 tests hybrids were exempt as they would run in electric mode OR start up and cause a failure.
Hybrids are NOT the answer and they never will be. They are a way for Toyota and other companies to say they are "green" (I hate that f**king term, it is used way to much and is meaningless) while making money hand over fist.
That said Diesels do pollute, probably more than a gas car. Will it change with the new breed? Time will tell. However, they are probably a better answer for 95% of the drivers out there as a compromise for real world power and economy.
The battery issue is far less of a problem than people think. Very few have been replaced since the Prius was imported.
Don't know what to tell you. Kia, Hyundai, honda, toyota, lexus, and BMW all have non-hybrid gasoline models that are now under 0.1g/mile. The Prius at least has been fitted with a diagnostic mode that now forces it to run the ICE all the time for purposes such as emissions testing. I would be interested to know why a diesel is a better choice for 95% of the population. Personally I would think a large part of the population would be pretty well served by an all electric run on renewable energy :rolleyes: At least a hybrid is a stepping stone in that direction. Good point on battery life. There are Prius taxis that are now getting up into the 300,000+ mile territory on their original batteries. Old batteries are rebuilt or recycled, used batteries are available at junkyards starting ~$500.
nicklockard said:
Look at the broader perspective of total well-to-wheels-to end of life cycle.
An excellent idea! I love the part where BEVs running on renewables are ~3 times more efficient than Hydrogen Fuel Cells are projected to be in 2030, and ~4 times more efficient than a typical ICE.
MPLSTDI said:
The 06 Jetta isn't a clean Diesel!
I'll say :eek:
It does however bother me that the E320 Bluetec supposedly is. My local Mercedes dealer has big signs out announcing the arrival of the "world cleanest diesel!" Based on the above, I'm not convinvced that is saying a lot.
wxman said:
Nick - is this what you're looking for?
Lots of interesting stuff there, look forward to reading in more detail.
Wobisobi said:
This is certainly not the product of a data analyst. One question I have is where the verifiable test results for the diesels with bluetec are or what ever they want to call it? It is obvious to me that a diesel that can pass 50 states emissions would have much different results that the ones shown in this odd little post.
I'm sorry you don't think so. EPA is about as verifiable as I can find. I thought the E320 Bluetec sort of implied a result for a vehicle with Bluetec. The vehicles shown are the only ones available on the 2008 light duty vehcile market. If there was a 50 state diesel available for sale I would have included it. I showed the 2006 TDI as a reference for lack of any other smallish efficient diesel. Below is the UK VW Polo Blue Motion if that helps:
2007 VW Polo 1.4L Blue Motion UK vs. 2007 Toyota Prius UK
CO2 (g/km): 104 vs. 104 (even)
CO (g/km): 0.237 vs. 0.18 (31.7% higher)
NOx (g/km): 0.227 vs. 0.01 (2170% or 22.7X higher)
PM (g/km): 0 vs. 0 (even)
Luggage (cuft): 9.5 vs 14.4 (34% less)
0-60 (s): 13.5 vs. 10.5 (28.6% slower)
mijbo11 said:
How much energy is used in the mining, milling and refining processes?
heavy metals are extremly toxic. more so than the particulates out of a diesel. you want facts its all here just read with an open mind.
BTW, nickel is neither a heavy metal nor toxic. Its not particularly rare either, as implied in another post. If it were we probably wouldn't use it to make up 25% of our 5c coins. Its basically unremarkable as a metal, and probably no more (or less) polluting or energy intensive than the 1000s of pounds of various metals that go into all our vehicles. Given that the battery weighs 99 lbs in a prius, and only a portion of that is nickel, a fair amount is steel,plastic and water, I'm thinking the batteries probably aren't that big an issue. The "acid" is actually a base, KOH, or basically drano. I wouldn't want to drink it, but its pretty environmentally benign as it breaks down very quickly. Thats more or less why its ok to put it down the drain.
NFSTDI said:
Petroleum is a dangerous substance as well. The bottom line is that unless we all give up our cars any reduction is a good thing.
Here, Here!
nortones2 said:
Problems with mining of any sort too! At least the TDI's and the Prius are less heavy on the juice...
And well said!

Sorry if I started getting sarcastic, its now 4:30AM :(

Rob
 

Wobisobi

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TDI
Missing my Audi Q7 3.0 TDI
I'm sorry you don't think so. EPA is about as verifiable as I can find. I thought the E320 Bluetec sort of implied a result for a vehicle with Bluetec. The vehicles shown are the only ones available on the 2008 light duty vehicle market. If there was a 50 state diesel available for sale I would have included it. I showed the 2006 TDI as a reference for lack of any other smallish efficient diesel. Below is the UK VW Polo Blue Motion if that helps:
2007 VW Polo 1.4L Blue Motion UK vs. 2007 Toyota Prius UK
CO2 (g/km): 104 vs. 104 (even)
CO (g/km): 0.237 vs. 0.18 (31.7% higher)
NOx (g/km): 0.227 vs. 0.01 (2170% or 22.7X higher)
PM (g/km): 0 vs. 0 (even)
Luggage (cuft): 9.5 vs 14.4 (34% less)
0-60 (s): 13.5 vs. 10.5 (28.6% slower)
My point was that you were comparing automobiles that are yet to come and deciding on their cleanliness without any information on which to base your analysis. The automobiles that are sold elsewhere are not the same as will be sold here. You are comparing item “A” and item “B” with the conclusion that item “C”, since it wears the same size pant as item “A”, will have the same results. It appears that your analysis, as an engineer (which flavor and certification), made some logic leaps and numerical assumptions from dissimilar datasets.

My first experience with a VW diesel was my 1996 Passat TDI. I no longer have the mileage log I kept with the car so will not be able to provide you with statistical information for your hobby but I do know that I averaged, during 190,000 miles of driving pleasure, about ~44 MPG. The worst mileage I received was ~35 MPG while delivering pizza in Spokane, WA. When I sold the car for $6,000 in ~2006, I was still averaging ~44 MPG. I am not saying it was the cleanest running car but I do know it was better than anything else available at the time.

When evaluating the market relevant to the last TDI’s sold, I would still favor a used TDI over a used Hybrid. Hybrid vehicles are quite an achievement but not to any great degree. The marketing of the vehicle is more of an achievement. I just hope the same effort will not be exercised for the useless ethanol push.

The EPA is a governmental agency that, until order by a Judge, had no idea CO2 was something they should track. They are effective to a certain level but are by no means the best source. You seem to have quite a bit of time on your hands and, if you are still an engineering student, you may want to do your own testing using a baseline that is demonstrative of situations and events that actually happen on our planet.

In conclusion, it appears to me that your goal with these posts is not -- in truth -- to parlay with diesel vehicle fans to gain insight and information but rather to try and insult, dissuade, condescend, belittle and harass. If you were trying to prove to diesel fans that their choice was, in effect, dangerous and irresponsible, try somewhere else.
 
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