Diesel Technoolgy - losers according to CNN money/Fortune

TDI37

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In addition to the tremendous amount of energy that it takes to separate hydrogen, I'm wondering about the whole "yay the only emission is water, which is natural and necessary for life!". The last I checked, water vapor is a green house gas (just like the dreaded CO2... which is natural and necessary for plant life and therefore all life)and contributes ~50-70% of the greenhouse effect. It has been largely ignored in studies because it is mostly controlled by the sun. That is true as things are today, but I wonder if millions of cars began spewing out water vapor if it would have an effect. I'm thinking so.
 

NoSmoke

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In addition to the tremendous amount of energy that it takes to separate hydrogen, I'm wondering about the whole "yay the only emission is water, which is natural and necessary for life!". The last I checked, water vapor is a green house gas (just like the dreaded CO2... which is natural and necessary for plant life and therefore all life)and contributes ~50-70% of the greenhouse effect. It has been largely ignored in studies because it is mostly controlled by the sun. That is true as things are today, but I wonder if millions of cars began spewing out water vapor if it would have an effect. I'm thinking so.
Millions of cars are spewing water vapor now and always have been (by virtue of hydrocarbon combustion).
 

TDI37

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Millions of cars are spewing water vapor now and always have been (by virtue of hydrocarbon combustion).
Good point. Though correct me if I'm wrong (its been a long time since organic chemistry), but I'm thinking burning hydrogen is going to produce significantly more water vapor per joule produced than burning gasoline. My point was you are just trading one greenhouse gas (CO2) for another (H20). I guess I should have been more specific in that you are actually trading X amount of CO2 and Y amount of H2O for Y+Z amount of H20, but that is a bit more cumbersome.

People today don't think of water as a pollutant just like no one thought of CO2 as a pollutant 25 years ago. I'm just wondering if anyone has done any research into the net effect of the H20 you get burning Hydrogen vs the CO2 + H20 you get burning gasoline. I know I haven't seen any data on it (not that I've been diligently searching, but I am curious).

I guess exhaust systems could be fitted with condenser units so the water emitted is in liquid form, but I'm sure that would have a detrimental effect on the efficiency of the engine. That means it would require more Hydrogen to go the same distance (and therefore more power from the power plant (burning God knows what) to separate the Hydrogen from the water in the first place).

I don't know, maybe I'm the only one who thinks of these things. More likely, I'm an idiot and it has been though of and is negligible compared to the advantages. Also possible is that it has been thought through, determined to have a net negative effect, but they still go along with it because it sounds good to people who want to be 'green' but don't want to think too hard about it.

Okay that got way too long. I think I'm done rambling now. :eek:
 

NoSmoke

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You are correct in thinking that burning hydrogen will produce more water per unit of energy than burning a hydrocarbon (as some of the energy from the hydrocarbon comes from combustion of its carbon content). One could calculate the difference from the heat of combustion of hydrogen and carbon and considering that gasoline contains m/l two hydrogen atoms per carbon atom.

Another factor to consider with hydrogen powered cars is whether they are powered by a combustion engine or a fuel cell. If a fuel cell, the amount of water vapour produced would be considerably less as fuel cells are considerable more efficient in producing motive energy.

Anyhow, all that said, the contribution of such water to greenhouse gas warming is negligible in both cases as the amount produced would be the proverbial "drop in the bucket" compared to naturally occurring sources of water vapour (mainly evaporation from the oceans) and as a result the overall atmospheric water vapour balance would be little affected. This is in considerable contrast to CO2 where man-made emissions are a significant portion of the atmospheric CO2 balance (and that CO2 is a more potent greenhouse gas than water vapour).
 

tadawson

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Uh, unlike CO2, there is this amazing thing known as 'rain' which causes water vapor to come back out of the air . . . somehow, I can't imagine water vapor being a problem at all . . . or should we make plans to cover the oceans too?

Just not buying this one, sorry . . .

- Tim
 

tikal

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Apr 18, 2001
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Agreed, CNN should be trusted about as much as the National Inquirer. In fact I think I would trust this story if it was in the National Inquirer more then on CNN.

I have not found a person who owned/drove a TDI that didn't love it.
Unfortunately the pool of people who would consider a TDI car vs other gasser vehicles is small in the US. A lot of people do not see the long term cost-benefit of the diesel technology.
 

dubStrom

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2003 A4 Jetta (sold), 2010 JSW (sold), 2013 Passat 6MT traded for 2014 JSW with 6MT-TOTALED in November 2016, 2003 ALH 5MT conversion (sold), wheezing 2015 GSW/DSG and a new 2021 Tacoma Access Cab 4x4 p'up
Simplest reduced Carbon source (methane, a.k.a. natural gas)
Burn it, and make carbon dioxide and STEAM (water).
CH4 + 2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O




THE EQUATION is a little different depending on what you are burning (gasoline, propane, whatever), but CO2 and water are the output... fireworks, firewood, weedwhips, diesel locomotives. Burn anything, get water (and CO2).


Water spews from the exhaust of cars and trucks BEFORE the exhaust system is HOT. But in Northern environments, where short trips never heat the exhaust to above 212F (100C)- ICE! Yes, that frozen water was gasoline (or diesel)





Most people don't know why there's water spewing from their Dad's Crown Vic. I know, smaller engines do it too, but less. There are more than 1 Billion cars being driven on the planet today, and China is going to add more than 20 million to that soon.

Edited to remove controversial implications: the number of sources of carbon dioxide and water that Humans generate IS actually enormous on a planetary scale. Cars are just a part of it. I put this in the category of "facts people should know".
 
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Thmastr

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wow... there are all kinds of nerds in here!

Please keep bringing your chemistry book illustrations and space filling models!

Any movies of proton shift?

I would think that the carcinogens expelled from the incomplete oxidation of the hydrocarbon molecule really do have to be taken into account. In a perfect world yes 100% of the products would be Co2 and H2O (from any alkane, alkene or alkyne reactant). However with organic chemistry we know there are many other side reactions that produce other chemicals. This is the argument for not buying your drugs on the street. VS. the drug store. Quality control and user safety... oh and the ones at the store can be taxed...

Where is the popcorn eating smiley when you need it!

Ill keep driving my new diesel now... and no I wont run it in the garage with the garage door closed... something about the higher affinity of hemoglobin to CO2 than to O2 that makes me a bit nervous...
 
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Daekar

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I'm not going to try to respond to that whole... mess... but I felt that the most glaring and ridiculous error couldn't go unnoted: the idea that the heat energy from the steam which is the product of combustion is causing climate change. This is like saying that the ocean gets warmer when you pee in it. The amount of solar energy absorbed by the atmosphere and earth's surface (ocean or land) is SO (can you double capitalize something for emphasis?) much greater than the energy in the aforementioned steam that it renders pretty much every other source of energy completely irrelevant. This is not to argue for or against climate change or greenhouse gasses, but against the idea that those miniscule streams of energy could be responsible for any meaningful, detectable, or relevant amount of climate change.
 

dubStrom

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wow... there are all kinds of nerds in here!

Please keep bringing your chemistry book illustrations and space filling models!

Any movies of proton shift?

I would think that the carcinogens expelled from the incomplete oxidation of the hydrocarbon molecule really do have to be taken into account. In a perfect world yes 100% of the products would be Co2 and H2O (from any alkane, alkene or alkyne reactant). However with organic chemistry we know there are many other side reactions that produce other chemicals. This is the argument for not buying your drugs on the street. VS. the drug store. Quality control and user safety... oh and the ones at the store can be taxed...

Where is the popcorn eating smiley when you need it!

Ill keep driving my new diesel now... and no I wont run it in the garage with the garage door closed... something about the higher affinity of hemoglobin to CO2 than to O2 that makes me a bit nervous...
You are thinking of Carbon Monoxide (CO). not carbon dioxide. Yes, CO displaces oxygen on hemoglobin. Most cars have pretty efficient catalytic converters though... low CO emission.
 
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Thmastr

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SF Bay Area
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You are thinking of Carbon Monoxide (CO). not carbon dioxide. Yes, CO displaces oxygen on hemoglobin. Most cars have pretty efficient catalytic converters though... low CO emission.
Yes thank you! too much typing of CO2 before typing CO I guess..
 

SanDca04

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Aug 13, 2013
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San Diego, California
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How much energy fits in your "tank"?

I'm brand new but had to jump in because I haven't seen mentioned what is the barrier very few people talk about: ENERGY DENSITY. It's not as sexy as generating or using fuel, but it is the current barrier that is limiting electric cars and still leaves Hydrogen off of any businessperson's radar.

One thing to understand about gasoline and diesel (and all liquidized fuels) is that they are amazingly well suited for being fuels. They are liquids that easily vaporize into gases. To start with the latter, gases burn very quickly (actually related to the concept of power density). The liquid part is what we take for granted. Easy to transport and pretty much all the space they take up is taken up by reactants that will be burned/converted into energy. You simple can't cram more molecules into a space than a liquid and in this case all those molecules will convert bonds into energy. (solids are often more dense but only by a small amount).

The key term for this is ENERGY DENSITY--how much energy you can harvest per volume--and it is very hard to beat liquid fuels. Batteries have a major problem in the fact that a huge proportion of their volume is not converted into energy. Membranes, electrodes, electrolytes do allow for energy production but take up space without actually being converted into energy. The end result is that current batteries are barely scratching their way to 1/10 the energy density of liquid fuels. So the weak 50mile range of electric cars can easily be solved with battery packs 10x the size of a typical gas tank :-/

Hydrogen is even worse because it is a gas and it cannot, within reason, be liquefied by any amount of pressure placed on it. So consider a very rough calculation here... a gallon of gas ends up being about 30moles of molecules (all of which by the way have a lot more bonds than each H2). A mole of gas is ~22L at normal pressure, we'll call it 20qts and so 5 gallons per mole. So we're looking at a gallon of liquid fuels having the energy of about 150 gallons of the gas version. Yes, you can compress the H2 gas, but doing so it will be at >2000psi and you will still only have 1 bond per molecule to break vs. 20 on average for gasoline. (It is not intuitive, but in a gas the size of the molecule does not really affect how much space the gas takes up. It is just the number molecules bouncing around) To be honest those pressure are not beyond reason, but there are other issues at play and such tanks are very heavy.

Gaseous hydrocarbons have seen success but LPG is actually liquefied and CNG has the same issues as H2. CNG is helped by the multiple bonds issue, but CNG still produces CO2 and you've all seen the almost-second story bump on CNG buses. All cars converted to CNG give up their trunks, though concept vehicles have other solutions.

A very interesting line of research going on with H2 though is to make solid state materials that can store H2 within their very crystal lattice. Like a sponge where the spaces between the host materials atoms has room for H's to hang out. These can take the pressures down by a factor of 10 or so.

All told a long-range H2 car still needs to haul a tank behind it heavier than it could realistically do. Batteries will always have the "wasted" space of the elctrodes and such. Nothing will go anywhere further, pun intended, unless energy storage volumes are addressed.
 

SanDca04

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H2: Available source? Danger?

While I'm at it I just wanted to make a couple of notes about hydrogen.

Yes, H2 is not readily available in nature. This, though, mostly owes to the simple fact that H2 is so light, and therefore so fast at a given temperature. H2 molecules at normal temperatures are zipping around so fast that they "break atmo" and are gone forever. Interestingly, there will someday be no more He on earth and for the same reason. Unlike H there is no He tied up in other compounds... as a noble gas it can't. The US actually has a "Strategic Helium Reserve"!

So you do have to "mine" H from other sources. H2O is everyone's favorite, but most H2 actually come from easier sources... wait for it... methane and other hydrocarbon decomposition. Mostly this is as a byproduct, but it does take the wind out of the H2 fuel cell pretty picture.

Finally, a note about H2 as a dangerous gas. Firstly, the Hindenberg has gradually been reinvestigated over the past couple decades and it is fairly well agreed upon at least that H2 should not be considered the cause of the fire. The metallic paint on the zeppelin was extremely flammable, actually the same as blasting powder sometimes used for emergency spot weilds. It seems that static electricity was to blame for ignition in a landing protocol error.

In the least consider that we have lots of pictures of horrible flames and smoke... H2 burns in the UV and produces no smoke because it has no carbon. You can't see H2 burning. It also tends to explode in one shot or not burn at all. A big balloon of H2 is not flammable until it mixes with O2 and creates an appropriately rich/lean mixture. Achieving this is non-trivial because the H2 is so fast that it disperses very quickly, a fact that would make H2 actually safer than CNG in a car accident, which disperses more slowly.

I have worked closely with high pressure H2 for a couple decades now and am far more afraid of the natural gas lines. I do hope they are putting the stinky stuff in the car CNG.
 

LarBear

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As has been pointed out so ably the problem with any gas be it H2 or CNG or fairy flatulence, is that they have to be compressed at fairly high pressures and per unit of energy take up a lot more space in a practical vehicle. Maybe it's just me being old and crotchety, but it seems that practical internal combustion engines using either gasoline or diesel are looked down upon by those who consider themselves our betters. They contemplate and theorize with their equally impractical compatriots, deciding that we should all take rapid transit or use some magic power source yet to be invented.

In much of the west where we're apparently not supposed to live anyway rapid transit is neither feasible nor practical, and I gave up on magic a long time ago.
 
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