Diesel Jeep Project

[Dieselworld]

Well for some time I have wanted to take a Jeep Scrambler or CJ-7 and put a diesel in place of the junky gas engine. The engines that would fit in the Jeep and are available in the US are the following: Isuzu turbo diesel, Mercedes diesel, GM 6.5 or 6.2 diesel, or the 5.7 GM diesel or Nissan 33td.

The 6.5 and 6.2 are too big and heavy for the Jeep, the Mercedes might work out of a 240D but is not very powerful, the 5.7 diesel are very hard to find and not the most reliable, the Nissan would work and is a pretty good engine (used in the IH Scout), the Isuzu is a 4cy and fairly light and seems to be the best choice. There is a fairly wide range of trannys available that will bolt up. My preference is an automatic because I hate manuals in traffic. The real problem is the motor mounts. They have to be custom made. I don't weld very well. Any ideas?

For you brothers overseas: I have heard rumors that old CJ and wranglers used Isuzu turbo diesel engines is this correct? If so there probably motor mounts already available from Chrysler. The dealers in the states don't have access to the parts unique to vehicles overseas. Any advice?

Lets put our heads together and see what we can build. Anyone in Atlanta want to help me with this project?

Chow

[This message has been edited by Russell Parr (edited July 14, 1999).]

 

[christi]

Why not the VM Motori 2.5 diesel as fitted to Euro Cherokees and Grand Cherokees? If you found a crashed one in Europe and shipped the parts back would be double easy. My dads VM powered Cherokee seems fast enough.
The 2.5 is a four cylinder engine, but I believe that VM also make six cylinder 3.6 litre versions. One of my neighbours had one in his Range Rover, which was an easy conversion on account of the 2.5 VM being a factory fit option in the RR. The VM engine is a modular diesel, with a seperate cylinder head for each cylinder (like an aero engine) and push rod valve gear, so no belt to brake.
You might be able to by the engine direct from the manufacturer, their web site is at http://www.atlanticdda.com
Also don't Mazda make some great large diesel engines? I'm sure that there is a firm here which does RR conversions using these engines. The RR has a V8 petrol based on a US engine, a Buic wasn't it? If there is some sort of relationship between the RR bell housing and Chrysler products (don't know my US car companies), then maybe they can sell you some parts / an engine.
We never had a CJ diesel in the UK, but then they were selling a Cherokee diesel with a Renault badge on it in France when I was a kid, so maybe they did it there.
Would an Audi 2.5 litre, 5 cyl, 140bhp Tdi (and I guess more with Wett) be powerful enough?



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1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/

 

[Dieselworld]

Christi,
The only problem with the VM is that we don't have them in the US and parts would be next to impossible to get. If I broke down on a trip I could not get it fixed. I would have to order parts from over seas and would take a long time. Mazda did make a diesel here but it was a 2.2l 4 cylinder and put in the Ford Ranger truck for several years. Parts are near impossible to get. The Audi would probably be powerful enough but there is the problem of sourcing parts since this engine is not available in the US.

I found a web site that sells new VW TD and ID for generators but the tranny from an American car won't fit it. A Cummins 4cy would work well and fit all the available trannys but is quite heavy.

Keep the ideas comming!

Chow

 

[mickey]

Don't dismiss the Cummins idea! If you're thinking "Jeep" and "diesel", you're probably also thinking "rock crawler". Lots of weight over the front axle will probably help the hill climbing ability. People put big old whomping V8's in those things all the time, so I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to modify the axle and suspension to handle it. You could probably secure a 4 cyl. diesel fairly easily by locating a clapped-out contstruction forklift. (The kind masonry contractors use all the time.) You could add your own turbo if it doesn't already have one.

-mickey

p.s. I'm not convinced that a TDI-style diesel would be ideal for rock crawling. You probably want a non-turbocharged direct injection diesel if you want a small, relatively light engine. The higher compression ratio would give it better low-end torque. (I'm talking VERY low end...the kind you want when you're rock crawling. I know it would be a dog on the highway, but you've already got a TDI!) I think a TDI powered Jeep would be too difficult to drive off road because of the turbo lag. VW does make the "SDI" diesel. They should be available in the US for use as industrial motors.

[This message has been edited by mickey (edited July 14, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by mickey (edited July 14, 1999).]

 

[christi]

Hmm, OK VM is under American ownership, but I guess that they make them in Italy. They must ship the engines from Italy to the Jeep factory, and then send the completed Jeep back to Europe. Question is, what about spares? do they send spare parts to some sort of warehouse in the US, and then distribute them from there to the dealers in Europe? I bet that they're not clever enough to ship VM spare parts direct from Italy to the European dealers. It may be that all those lovely VM engines and parts are already in the US. Maybe it would be worth getting a part number for some minor, Euro diesel specific part (like a manifold gasket) and try and order it from a Jeep dealer in the US, and see what happens. My VW dealer here in the UK can get US specific parts in a couple of days. They just order them from Germany, and a few days later they arrive at the UK dealer. If you are interested I could call a UK dealer and get a part number for something off of a Jeep turbo diesel, so that you could try it.
RE turbo engines. A turbo doesn't reduce the pulling power of the engine when off roading. If an engine is good without a turbo, it'll be better with one. You don't loose anything. OK a small engine with a turbo will not have the low down pull of a big engine without a turbo, but the big engine with a turbo, better still!

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1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/

 

[Dieselworld]

Great thoughts every one.

Christi, Lets try an experiement. Get the part numbers for the right and left motor mounts for the VM diesel in the wrangler. I will then go to a Chrysler dealer and see if they can get them. We can make the Jeep a "world car". Wasen't that what Ford was advertising in the early eighties? I looked at the link yesterday for the US distributor but I haven't called to see if they will sell one to me. Some of the exporters won't sell things to US customers because of EPA rules.
A company called Tapco had a kit to install a Hercules diesel in a CJ-7 but they went out of business. I found pictures of the Jeep with the TD installed and it looked very cool. Hercules made lots of engines for the US army and they were great engines. Lets use out noodles and figure this out.

Chow

 

[christi]

Here in the UK they only sold/sell the Cherokee and G. Cherokee with a diesel engine, and the only diesel engine is the VM. I think that you are thinking about Isuzu engine in a Wrangler; sorry, they won't know what I'm talking about. I can get you a part number for any part for a Cherokee with VM engine though...
Also you can check out IBERPARTS at http://www.vigonet.com/quas/weli.htm . They gave me a quote and the part number for a dash switch for my Passat just from my description via e-mail. I will forward on eof there e-mails to you. If the wrangler was available in Europe with the Isuzu engine then I guess that it would have appeared in Spain.

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1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/

 

[christi]

Russ, my e-mail to you bounced. Send me a real one to philip.christian@deathsdoor.com

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1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/

 

[mickey]

christi: The amount of low end torque is not as important as the smoothness of the power delivery as the revs rise. A small turbocharged engine doesn't have a very "linear" power delivery. The TDI has a pretty noticable power spike around 1800 to 2000 rpms when the turbo boost really starts to come on. That makes rock crawling a lot tougher, since the last thing you want is for anything abrupt to happen. I should have stated my position more clearly, I guess. People "wheel" in old Willey's Jeeps all the time, and I've got a lawn mower more powerful than those old Willey's flatheads. Gear reduction takes care of the torque issue. What you need is smooth, easily modulated power. I think a non-turbo DI diesel would be ideal. A friend of mine one had a turbocharged Toyota 4x4. He hated driving it off road, since all the power tended to show up at the most inopportune times.

-mickey

p.s. That reminds me: I've got an old 4x4 magazine lying around somewhere with an article about a guy who put a diesel engine in an old Toyota. I'll see if I can find it. It might contain some useful info.

 

[christi]

It's dead easy to disable the turbo on most turbo diesel engines, with some sort of kill switch on the dash. You could switch it off for off roading, and on for road use.

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1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/

 

[Dieselworld]

I would prefer a turbo vs. a non turbo. I intend to drive this vehicle on the road also. No trailering for me..no sir.

Mickey,
Could I borrow your engine (tdi) and use that as the experiemental engine? I promise I will give it back..some day.

Chow

 

[mickey]

Sure, Russell! In fact, you can replace the Jeeps body with my New Beetle's! Now THAT would get some attention up in the hills.

-mickey

 

[N Dennis]

Christi, a turbodiesel with a disabled turbo would not run worth a s***. The exhaust is routed thru the impeller of the turbo, and if you stop the turbo you have a vehicle that smokes excessively, the mileage goes south, and you could not power out of your own way. How do I know this? I had a Dodge D-50 Turbodiesel and I changed the turbo on it. They sent me a turbo setup with a wastegate on it(the original did not have one), I installed it and it was freaking dog and danger to society. Not to mention it layed down a nasty smokescreen. Trust me, you do not want a Turbodiesel with a disabled turbo on it.

 

[christi]

OK, I am guilty of not discribing the concept properly. You don't actually disable the turbo, what you do is to make the injection system think that the turbo isn't there, so that it doesn't put any extra fuel in. On a mechanic fuel injection system there is a hose which runs from the inlet manifold to the injection pump. Boost pressure in the hose causes the injection pump to inject more fuel. If you disconnect the hose, the car drives exactly like a non turbo, even though the turbo is still there and spinning. If a solenoid valve is inserted in the line, it can be controlled via a switch on the dash. I'm not quite sure how this could be done with a Tdi, probably by permanently opening the turbo wastegate or something (which could be done with a switch) or using a solenoid to vent the boost line to the ECU.
As someone said, ultimate power is not necessarily what is wanted off road, and in anycase if you were in a situation where the power was required, just switch the switch! I'm sure that fuel consumption is not too important off road either.

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1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/

 

[Sparky]

Consider using the new Detroit Diesel engine for automotive use, or the Hercules engine that is already setup for Jeep Cherokee use. I am currently repowering a Jeep Cherokee with a turbo diesel.

 

[Bob Shope]

Why go to all this work. There are Diesel Cherokees here in the U.S. for sale. I have an 85 Cherokee Chief turbo aftercooled idi sitting in the garge right now. In the process of a basic retoration. This is my second one. The engine is a Renault 2.1 85 hp. Looks good siting next to the New Beetle TDI. Anyone out there with one let me know. I have a few people we are tring to pull resources with. Bob Shope

 

[christi]

That kind'a explains those Renault badged Cherokees that I used to see in France when I was a kid. Maybe it means that the 2.5 litre Renault engine would go in too.

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1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon)
See my Passat / Peugeot page at www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5067/

 

[Warsaw Falcon]

I know for a fact that a 4-cyl Perkins diesel drops into a Ford F150 pickup with just a couple of engine mount weldments. These are used in air compressors, trenchers, etc. and are plentiful and cheap. Very reliable, with parts galore. Stump grinders, brush chippers and street cleaners use them as well. Just a thought------