Diesel fuel additive testing cover-up

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
@ Cool Breeze:
right. I was trying to follow your logic here:
post #57 said:
...It's no surprise that essentially all the major players absolve themselves from responsiblity. Stanadyne likes to sell additive, BOSCH et al want to avoid warranty repairs, ...
if they are able to stand by the standard they've used in Europe, how exactly are they absolving themselves of responsibility?
 

Cool Breeze

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
US
TDI
BMW 335D
tditom said:
@ Cool Breeze:
right. I was trying to follow your logic here:

if they are able to stand by the standard they've used in Europe, how exactly are they absolving themselves of responsibility?
It absolves them any claim coming from a region which whose diesel doesn't meet at a min the Euro spec. That would include the U.S.

Now wouldn't it be a ***** to have a warranty denied in the US because the diesel tested out to have lubricity or cetane levels which were higher than "normal" diesel, since it would suggest the presence of an additive in the fuel?
 
Last edited:

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Cool Breeze said:
It absolves them any claim coming from a region which whose diesel doesn't meet at a min the Euro spec. That would include the U.S.

Now wouldn't it be a ***** to have a warranty denied in the US because the diesel tested out to have lubricity or cetane levels which were higher than "normal" diesel, since it would suggest the presence of an additive in the fuel?
:rolleyes:
c'mon- they aren't going to deny warranty because two desirous attributes of fuel are above 'normal'. The fuel/additive mixture i put into my vehicles is OK'd by VW (and BMW for that matter) and is >50 cetane and <<<520 wear scar.

If there was a warranty claim on a fuel system, it would be hashed out between Bosch and VW. You the customer would be taken care of if you use <B5.
 

Cool Breeze

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
US
TDI
BMW 335D
tditom said:
:rolleyes:
c'mon- they aren't going to deny warranty because two desirous attributes of fuel are above 'normal'. The fuel/additive mixture i put into my vehicles is OK'd by VW (and BMW for that matter) and is >50 cetane and <<<520 wear scar.

If there was a warranty claim on a fuel system, it would be hashed out between Bosch and VW. You the customer would be taken care of if you use <B5.
LOL, but to dream.
 

Cool Breeze

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
US
TDI
BMW 335D
tditom said:
:confused: what part are you having trouble with, C B?
Nothing. Just saying it would be funny if a company tried to pull a "your diesel is too good, therefore you must be using an additive or too much bio, warranty denied".

It's OT I know. I'm heading back to the corner of the room now.
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
nicklockard said:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=269781


And numerous other threads document an HPFP failure epidemic. This is why lubricity is an issue. ;)


VW-CRD + North American ULSD + VW Non-Warranty = Ticking time bomb.



;)
And numerous other threads document an HPFP failure epidemic.

What epidemic? Your drinking the cool aid again (it's a joke) I've checked with the two closest dealers to me and neither have had any HPFP problems to note. Hardly a large sample to be sure but still.......

I posted this elsewhere on the forum but it's worth posting again...................
I don't know about you but I have no idea what the major companies are adding to their diesel here in California. For all I know companies like Chevron and Shell could be adding much more in the way of additives to their fuel lowering the wear rate down too or near the 460 euro standard.

We just don't know do we?
 

Cool Breeze

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
US
TDI
BMW 335D
GTIDan said:
And numerous other threads document an HPFP failure epidemic.

What epidemic? Your drinking the cool aid again (it's a joke) I've checked with the two closest dealers to me and neither have had any HPFP problems to note. Hardly a large sample to be sure but still.......

I posted this elsewhere on the forum but it's worth posting again...................
I don't know about you but I have no idea what the major companies are adding to their diesel here in California. For all I know companies like Chevron and Shell could be adding much more in the way of additives to their fuel lowering the wear rate down too or near the 460 euro standard.

We just don't know do we?
I would think California would have that information specifying min standards. IIRC California may be on euro standatd with regards to cetane and lubricity. This very thing came up on a BMW forum (I drive a 335d) and BMW's position was that they " We must certify the vehicle for at least 10 years and 120,000 miles.". I suspect that is also the case with VW. From my limited experience people who go above and beyond the maintenance requirements of a car will only reap the benefits once the vehicle is well over 100k miles. This board is full of VW enthusiasts so most of the people on here will fall into that higher maintenance level category.

In my most unqualified opinion HPFP failures which occur at very low mileage are the result of a design failure or manufacturing defect and not due to a lack lubricty.
 
Last edited:

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Cool Breeze said:
...(I drive a 335d) ....
i did not catch that before, C B.

let me know when you want to unload that 120,001 mi POS. :D
 

UFO

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Location
A mile high
TDI
2001 Beetle
I agree. This "rash" of HPFP failures I suspect is due to manufacturing defects. Minor lack of lubricity would most likely manifest after thousands of miles. And of course it seems limited to VWs.
 

Cool Breeze

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
US
TDI
BMW 335D
tditom said:
i did not catch that before, C B.

let me know when you want to unload that 120,001 mi POS. :D
LOL. You never know. I keep good maintenance records. I have an A/T and BMW feels 100k mile fluid changes for that tranny is an acceptable maintenance interval. :D
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
Cool Breeze said:
I would think California would have that information specifying min standards. IIRC California may be on euro standatd with regards to cetane and lubricity. This very thing came up on a BMW forum (I drive a 335d) and BMW's position was that they " We must certify the vehicle for at least 10 years and 120,000 miles.". I suspect that is also the case with VW. From my limited experience people who go above and beyond the maintenance requirements of a car will only reap the benefits once the vehicle is well over 100k miles. This board is full of VW enthusiasts so most of the people on here will fall into that higher maintenance level category.

In my most unqualified opinion HPFP failures which occur at very low mileage are the result of a design failure or manufacturing defect and not due to a lack lubricty.
Ahhhhhhhhh, at last, I feel a cool breeze coming in off the ocean....... :)
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
Reading a long article about ULSD here in the USA (Wikipedia) I thought I would share something that ties in with what VW says about addititive use in their 'clean diesel' models (09/10). If you don't want to read the entire page jump to the bottom and read that just below the dotted line.

Check it out below:
The EPA mandated the use of ULSD fuel in model year 2007 and newer highway diesel fuel engines equipped with advanced emission control systems that require the new fuel. These advanced emission control technologies will be required for marine diesel engines in 2014 and for locomotives in 2015.
The allowable sulfur content for ULSD (15 ppm) is much lower than the previous U.S. on-highway standard for low sulfur diesel (LSD, 500 ppm), which not only reduces emissions of sulfur compounds (a cause of acid rain), but also allows advanced emission control systems to be fitted that would otherwise be poisoned by these compounds. These systems can greatly reduce emissions of oxides of nitrogen and particulate matter.
Because this grade of fuel is comparable to European grades and engines will no longer have to be redesigned to cope with higher sulfur content and may use advanced emissions control systems which can be damaged by sulfur, the ULSD standard is increasing the availability of diesel-fueled passenger cars in the U.S. In Europe, diesel-engined automobiles have been much more popular with buyers than has been the case in the U.S.
Additionally, the EPA is assisting manufacturers with the transition to tougher emissions regulations by loosening them for model year 2007 to 2010 light-duty diesel engines.[5] As a result, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Toyota, and others are expecting to begin producing diesel vehicles for the U.S. market to join those from Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Volkswagen, and BMW. [6]
According to EPA estimates, with the implementation of the new fuel standards for diesel, nitrogen oxide emissions will be reduced by 2.6 million tons each year and soot or particulate matter will be reduced by 110,000 tons a year.
On June 1, 2006, U.S. refiners were required to produce 80% of their annual output as ULSD (15 ppm), and petroleum marketers and retailers were required to label[7] diesel fuel, diesel fuel additives and kerosone pumps with EPA-authorized language disclosing fuel type and sulfur content. Other requirements effective June 1, 2006, including EPA-authorized language on Product Transfer Documents and sulfur-content testing standards, are designed to prevent misfueling, contamination by higher-sulfur fuels and liability issues. The EPA deadline for industry compliance to a 15 ppm sulfur content was originally set for July 15, 2006 for distribution terminals, and by September 1, 2006 for retail. But on November 8, 2005, the deadline was extended by 1.5 months to September 1, 2006 for terminals and October 15, 2006 for retail. In California, the extension was not granted and followed the original schedule. As of December, 2006, the ULSD standard has been in effect according to the amended schedule, and compliance at retail locations was reported to be in place.
Sulfur is not a lubricant in of itself, but it can combine with the nickel content in many metal alloys to form a low melting point eutectic alloy that can increase lubricity. The process used to reduce the sulfur also reduces the fuel's lubricating properties. Lubricity is a measure of the fuel's ability to lubricate and protect the various parts of the engine's fuel injection system from wear. The processing required to reduce sulfur to 15 ppm also removes naturally-occurring lubricity agents in diesel fuel. To manage this change ASTM International (formerly the American Society for Testing and Materials) adopted the lubricity specification defined in ASTM D975 for all diesel fuels and this standard went into effect January 1, 2005.[8]
The refining process that removes the sulfur also reduces the aromatic content and density of the fuel, resulting in a minor decrease in the energy content, by about 1%. This decrease in energy content may result in slightly reduced peak power and fuel economy.
The transition to ULSD is not without substantial costs. The US Government has estimated that pump prices for diesel fuel will increase between $.05 and $.25 per gallon as a result of the transition. And, according to the American Petroleum Institute, the domestic refining industry has invested over $8 Billion to comply with the new regulations.
ULSD will run in any engine designed for the ASTM D-975 diesel fuels.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is, however, known to cause some seals to shrink (Source: Chevron paper) and may cause fuel pump failures in Volkswagen TDI engines used in pre-2009 models. TDI engines from 2009 and on are designed to use ULSD exclusively; biodiesel blends are reported to prevent that failure (Source: HRCCC.org Biodiesel Best Management Practices).
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Location
Miami, FL
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI/DSG
I've been using PowerService and buying name brand diesel, Chevron/Shell. Once the PS is gone I'll start using Stanadyne and maybe B5 when I can get it. I just don't know if I trust the product of local retailers of B5.
 

Ton

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Location
Free Union,VA
TDI
early 2001 jetta
zurgin1251 said:
I would be interested to know where this truck stop is or what the name of it is.
It may be a Citgo truckstop within an hour of Kingston. Very vague,I know.
 
Top