Diesel fuel additive testing cover-up

PapaBare

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There was a study done on diesel fuel additives on how they improve or make worse the lubricity in ULSD fuel for The Diesel Place by Arlen Spicer.

You can read the file HERE

I know that it will affect which additives I choose to use in the future!
 

mrGutWrench

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PapaBare said:
There was a study done on diesel fuel additives on how they improve or make worse the lubricity in ULSD fuel for The Diesel Place by Arlen Spicer.
You can read the file HERE
I know that it will affect which additives I choose to use in the future!
__. OK, a study on fuel not available in the "real world" and with two additives obtained from the producers of those additives -- and the STARS are ... (wait for it ....) those two additives *not* obtained from ordinary "blind" commercial sources.

__. Sorry, it's junk science.
 

securityguy

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Last thing we need is another thread to start hashing out this one again...can we lock it or remove it and move on?
 

PapaBare

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It was not intended to show mystery results from a product that was not on the open market!!

I was more interested in how poor the results were for the product that I use (PS-white) and what could I find that was better and in the local market.

Products like Stanadyne, FPPF RV or Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000 are not readily available in our local market!

Bio-diesel is $1.22/L here or $4.61/USG.
 

securityguy

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I don't understand why some folks are so dead set against ordering via mail and having what really works shipped directly to your door:confused: I could give a rats you know what whether I can buy it locally or have it shipped via UPS or FedEx right to my door step. Until someone can prove otherwise that Opti-Lube doesn't meet the test results in the Spicer report, I'll continue to buy it and have it shipped since what good is buying something locally like Stanadyne or PS knowing it failed the lubricity test;)
 

milehighassassin

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mrGutWrench said:
__. OK, a study on fuel not available in the "real world" and with two additives obtained from the producers of those additives -- and the STARS are ... (wait for it ....) those two additives *not* obtained from ordinary "blind" commercial sources.

__. Sorry, it's junk science.
Please explain... the author is a producer of the additives? How do you know that?
 

40X40

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mrGutWrench said:
__. OK, a study on fuel not available in the "real world" and with two additives obtained from the producers of those additives -- and the STARS are ... (wait for it ....) those two additives *not* obtained from ordinary "blind" commercial sources.
__. Sorry, it's junk science.


The fuel that the test was run with is not the same fuel that comes out of a pump anywhere... so if you or I use these products we are GUARANTEED to get different results because of the fuel differences.


Two of the additives tested were obtained directly from the makers. You NEVER get your test subject from the manufacturer as they might slip you a non-standard product. You buy it off the shelf.

The makers of the products that won the test were the ones that PAID for the test. That does not inspire confidence in the results actually being unbiased.

MrG, I came to same conclusion as you did. I am just translating for the peanut gallery.:)




Bill
 
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Ton

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Is there a biobased fuel additve available in Charlottesville,VA?
I saw a biobased fuel additive at a truck stop in Upstate NY. But I don't remember the brand name.
 

Rod Bearing

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Over the last year I've had fuel tested and found Stanadyne lubricity formula to yield wear scar in the 390-430 range. Different fuel from different trucks from all over the place. It's unscientific, but actually better trusted than doing the tests with a control sample. That's good enough.
 

b4black

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Rod Bearing said:
Over the last year I've had fuel tested and found Stanadyne lubricity formula to yield wear scar in the 390-430 range. Different fuel from different trucks from all over the place. It's unscientific, but actually better trusted than doing the tests with a control sample. That's good enough.
And what was the wear scar of the ULSD before you added the Stanadyne? Many commercial ULSD's are in that range already.
 

Powder Hound

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The part about obtaining samples from the manufacturers is well taken. The part about not liking the tests because the fuel was untreated is not.

In the referenced testing, they were striving for repeatability, and in that, since you cannot guarantee what is in the treating of the fuel at the pump, the obtaining of untreated fuel is the only way to make a reasonable attempt at finding the effects of OTC additives.

The only problem I see with the Spicer study is that they didn't test my additive of choice.

MGW, if you are so sure you have the correct testing methodology, then why don't you run a series and prove it? Then we can all read your write up and critique it here on the forum, in the same cynical way so many like to Monday morning quarterback anyone's efforts at getting anything done.

Junk Science? Nope. It isn't a perfect study, but is is light years ahead of anything you guys have done.
 

Powder Hound

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lkchris said:
As if "lubricity" was an issue in the first place.
If you like your car, and you want it to last a long, long time like I do, with a minimum of having to rebuild injection components at exhorbitant rates, then lubricity is a huge issue.

If you are questioning that, then you did not understand the preliminary explanation of what the Spicer test was all about.

But that is OK. Just remind me of your theory if I ever want to buy a car from you so I can properly discount an offer price based on how much work is going to be needed on your about to fail or already worn out injection pump and injectors.
 

Honeydew

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PapaBare said:
It was not intended to show mystery results from a product that was not on the open market!!

I was more interested in how poor the results were for the product that I use (PS-white) and what could I find that was better and in the local market.

Products like Stanadyne, FPPF RV or Schaeffer Diesel Treat 2000 are not readily available in our local market!

Bio-diesel is $1.22/L here or $4.61/USG.
If you want those additives for your 05 but can't get them locally maybe consider the 2-stroke for a lubricity additive.

I buy the same stuff tested in the study, the ashless type, for around $10/gallon: Supertech is the walmart house brand.

While our TDI gets no additives currently, the powerstoke gets a dose of 2-stroke with each fillup.
 

mrGutWrench

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40X40 said:
(snip) MrG, I came to same conclusion as you did. I am just translating for the peanut gallery.:)
Bill
__. Yeah, but some people don't know that "junk science" is worse than no data (actually it is no data). I'm done on this one -- I learned long ago not to get into an intellectual battle with unarmed people!
 

phatcyclist

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I use the Power Service with cetane boost so I'm glad to see that it wasn't detrimental although it didn't do as much as some. The only other additive readily available in town are the ones sold at NAPA and those were not tested. I'll stick with what I can get with little hassle I guess.
 

UFO

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lkchris said:
As if "lubricity" was an issue in the first place.
When manufacturers require 460 micron, and the US fuel spec is 520, that's an issue.
 

zurgin1251

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Ton said:
Is there a biobased fuel additve available in Charlottesville,VA?
I saw a biobased fuel additive at a truck stop in Upstate NY. But I don't remember the brand name.
I would be interested to know where this truck stop is or what the name of it is.
 

truav8r

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Zurgin.... you already have access to B20 in your area! John Ray & Sons on 6th Street (if I remember correctly) in Troy. I've filled up there a couple times myself when visiting my in-laws near the NY/VT border.

Fill up there my friend, and you shall need no stinkin' additives ;)
 

UFO

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^^^ Since ULSD, diesel is now a manufactured product, and needs additives to meet lubricity specifications. So whether the manufacturer adds them, or you add them, all diesel now requires "stinkin' additives".
 

zurgin1251

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truav8r said:
Zurgin.... you already have access to B20 in your area! John Ray & Sons on 6th Street (if I remember correctly) in Troy. I've filled up there a couple times myself when visiting my in-laws near the NY/VT border.

Fill up there my friend, and you shall need no stinkin' additives ;)
I fill up there as much as possible and try to plan my fillups accordingly :D . Im just thinking about times when Im on the road nowhere near a biodiesel pump (which happens just about everywhere else in this state) :mad: . I use PS on those occasions but wouldnt mind trying a different additive.
 

UFO

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truav8r said:
UFO.... and what exactly are you saying that hasn't been said before?
I'm directly addressing the previous poster's statement, on topic. Not sure what point you are making.
 

b4black

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tditom

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thanks for the reminder. i have requested more recent data from Infineum so we can see if the distributors have continued to meet that performance, or if they've dialed back the use of additives to improve their profitability since the beginning of the ULSD roll out ;)

This Dec is when all retail diesel must be ULSD in the US. Given the pressure on profit margins in the industry, there is no reason to believe that the distributors are going to continue to strive for 400 micron wear scar when they can go up to 520 and the additives are a significant cost to operations. I don't see why any distributor would be motivated to beat the ASTM standard. If I were in their position I would be trying to get as close this limit as possible.
 
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