Diesel dies after few seconds unless oil cap is off

Peterpion

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Location
London
TDI
Seat Alhambra 2011
This engine will run with the oil filler cap off (and tons of gas with some entrained oil coming out of the oil fill hole). With the cap on it will start and run for a few seconds before the RPM drops gradually and it quietly stops running. The seems a carbon copy of this post https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/blow-by-kills-motor-unless-oil-cap-off.462864/ - but there is no conclusion to the thread :-(

History: Car is Seat Alhambra 2011 2.0 TDI engine code CCF with 170k on clock. Recently I noticed oil level seems to be rising, about 3 months ago I took a litre of oil out and watched it and a few days ago it seems to have risen to a few mm above 'full' again.

The wife took the kids to the park yesterday and eldest texted me during journey to say car was making a noise. Wife declined to return home and continued to destination. On their return shortly after departing, car got slower and slower and stopped (while making bad noises), refusing to restart.

Eldest says car was initially making a noise like a toy car / like my dewalt drill spinning. Then other sounds started (scraping noise and a noise like metal was being dropped on to the road!)... obviously she is an 11 yr old and I can't trust her recollection completely but she is quite switched on.

I cleared a load of codes from the computer, and now no codes are coming back (there were plenty originally which are saved). I can start the engine (with the oil cap off) and no codes occur. If I do this a volcano of oil and gas (a bit smokey gas, smells like exhaust fumes - not that bad) comes out of the oil hole (or the hose that connects the rocker cover to the air intake hose pre turbo, or the dipstick hole if the dipstick is removed - any will work to keep the engine running). In messing round with it for 2 or 3 hours and perhaps 20 short starts not a single code has come back.

I then put all the hoses back to normal and tested it again and it dies after seconds again. Then removed the flexible air hose running to the anti judder valve (on the input side of the intake manifold, so it can suck air directly into the manifold) and its fine again (runs indefinitely), but a bit of smoke is still coming out of the flexible hose I have removed (so smokey gas is going through the rocker cover -> intake hose pipe, through the turbo air side, through the intercooler and out of the hose that would normally connect to the intake manifold - also through the air filter and out of the main air intake).

So, my guesses are that the 'smokey gas' is exhaust gas depleted of oxygen. So something is causing a high pressure of exhaust gas in the rocker cover, could be from the top end of the engine or I assume the bottom in which case its going up to the rocker cover via the engine block oil return channels. This is being recycled into the engine and the engine is starved of oxygen so stops.

Theres a couple of ideas in that other thread - turbo blown and blocking exhaust output, loose injector, but the loose injector seems to have been dismissed, and my turbo *seems* ok - I can stick my fingers into the intake and the shaft only has perhaps a mm or less radial play, and I think I heard it spin up slightly (not sure about that - to check later).

The most interesting theory from the other thread was that a blocked turbo exhaust port would cause exhaust gasses to pass through the turbo oil return pipe into the crankcase, up the oil return channels to the rocker cover and hence out. But I imagine also possible is a head gasket allowing gas from 1 cylinder to go directly into an oil channel in the head?

Coolant and oil look fine, no milk etc. Is a badly blocked DPF possible? I was wondering if I could loosen the lambda sensor for instance and allow the exhaust gas to escape that way to test it. One last thing, the fuel is just above zero and the wife swears blind that its used a quarter of a tank in 15 miles. I don't really believe it but I thought I would mention.

Any ideas would be really appreciated.
 

ghohouston

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Location
Lewisville, Texas
TDI
2001 Jetta Sedan TDI 5 Speed
Sure sounds like the dpf is plugged. I'd disconnect it and see if it stays running. Or could be an issue with differential pressure sensor.
 

csstevej

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Location
north nj
TDI
2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,glutton for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB , added an 06 NB DSG
I could be wrong…… but if your making oil ( rising oil levels) your fuel is leaking into you oil system and diluting your oil.

That’s one issue.

the other one I’m guessing has something to do with the EGR either cracked or stuck open allowing too much exhaust gasses back into the intake…..just my .002
 

Peterpion

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Location
London
TDI
Seat Alhambra 2011
Well yesterday afternoon I did a bit more on it. With what I think is the lambda sensor removed (sensor in the exhaust pipe just after the turbo, pre DPF) a fair bit of smokey gas comes out of that hole but not all of it at all - maybe half. So the oil fill spout is still venting a lot of gas. The turbo seems shot to me, while the front turbine does turn a bit by hand, its very 'sticky' and certainly can't spin if you try to spin it by hand. Is that normal for a turbo when the oil is not flowing (IE engine off)? Or should it still spin fairly smoothly? I realise the bearings are plain journal and designed to float on a film of oil - certainly if they were normal plain journal bearings like you get on a lathe for instance, they have failed. But IDK how the oil film aspect changes that.

Further, I stuck a long, slightly curved brazing rod into the lambda sensor hole towards the exhaust turbine until it stopped. I am pretty sure it reached the turbine blades. Then I turned the intake turbine by hand and the rotation does not seem to be being transferred to the exhaust turbine, so I am suspecting the turbo shaft has broken even more now.

I need to shift the DPF so I can get my fingers into the exhaust turbine and see what it feels like, and whether it turns with the front turbine. I guess if the shaft is broken thats a good reason for the exhaust out of the oil cap. Whether the engine has been damaged too IDK though. The engine didn't run away or overspeed so is it likely that any damage has happened (I'm being positive and assuming the turbo is the cause of gas - of course that might be wrong).

TIA, Pete
 

pedroYUL

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 8, 2011
Location
MI, USA
TDI
2015 Passat CVCA; 2015 GSW CRUA; 2004 wagon BEW(brother)
Turbo impeller should spin completely freely, no resistance at all. That turbo is gone!
 

Peterpion

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Location
London
TDI
Seat Alhambra 2011
Well, I can confirm thats the case now! I got the DPF moved and stuck my fingers into the turbo output and touched the impeller at the same time as touching the intake impeller - the shaft is completely snapped. The two impellers are not transmitting any movement to each other whatsoever. The exhaust impeller is also free to move around inside the turbo casing at least 10 mm up and down, side to side. Its like its just been chucked in there without being attached to a shaft at all.

So looking at the diagrams of this turbo it seems inevitable that gas will now be able to go back into the hole where the turbo shaft previously went, into the oil return gap and then on via the oil return pipe to the crankcase. From there it can ascend to the cam cover and out of the oil filler spout.

Also it seems the turbo exhaust impeller blades have been partly squashed or ground down, I cant see 100% yet but thats my impression - regardless the impeller is acting like a plug and preventing the exhaust escaping towards the normal exhaust / DPF etc now. So that creates extra pressure to really force the gas into the crank despite the smallish channels it has to pass through. This area (exhaust impeller and everything downstream of it) is also saturated with engine oil (dripping everywhere internally - from oil escaping via the turbo oil feed obviously).

I'm thinking its unlikely that its caused engine damage - hopefully. The intake impeller is still fairly central, small amount of play, but then theres an intercooler etc there to catch any large fragments that might have come from it. Its entirely possible that nothing large made its way into the bores and anything small might have just been blown out the exhaust ports I think.

But there must be metal in the DPF as it would have caught the disintegrating exhaust impeller fragments at least. Maybe that does not matter or maybe I can remove the DPF while I am in that area and wash it out anyway.

Later I'm going to try to start the engine after jamming the exhaust turbine open so it no longer blocks the output and see if I still get the high pressure in the cam cover. If that stops the gas flow it seems worth going ahead with removing the turbo etc (or paying someone to take it from here because it looks like an awful job for the driveway).
 

pedroYUL

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 8, 2011
Location
MI, USA
TDI
2015 Passat CVCA; 2015 GSW CRUA; 2004 wagon BEW(brother)
I would not start that engine again, no point
 

Peterpion

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Location
London
TDI
Seat Alhambra 2011
I didn't see that advice to not start the engine - I started it and it ran fine now. To rewind a bit...

I took the turbo off, or in fact I took it apart while it was still attached to the engine. I did read another person doing this and finding it not so good but its worked for me. I'll add a bit of detail about that in a minute.

Anyway I took the intake part of the turbo off and the cartridge so I just have the exhaust manifold / turbo exhaust impeller housing still attached to the car, with both impellers and the variable vane component removed too. I removed as much of the oil from the exhaust turbo housing as possible (it was full of oil) with tissue and started the car, which was obviously quite noisy but ran fine. There was plenty of smoke at first but this burns off and it was fairly clear after a few seconds. To warn anyone who does this, it does spatter oil around that area of the engine - the engine bay will need a clean now (although it already did because of the original diagnosis process of running the engine with the oil cap off).

While running I checked how much gas was now coming out the the oil fill spout and its back down to 'normal' levels - a small gentle stream of warm air. I was able to put the oil filler cap back on with no problem now so the original problem is gone. I think its pretty certain now that the gas venting from the oil spout was indeed coming from the turbo, because the broken exhaust impeller blocked the output port of the turbo, and gas went back via the turbo oil return to the crankcase.

The intercooler pipes are full of oil, I pulled one off and about 250ml of oil came out. So the entire intercooler & pipes will need cleaning somehow. I think I'll use a sump pump to wash it out with a strong stream of water since the car will have plenty of time to evaporate that off before I get the replacement turbo part. Originally when I started this job, I opened the oil cap and the engine was able to run (as I said before), but if I revved it up the engine knocked very badly. I then removed the hose from the intercooler to the intake manifold. The engine does not knock now when revved, I dont know for sure why but I suspect that oil from the intercooler pipes is getting sucked in and detonating which is why I have left the intercooler manifold disconnected until I wash it out.

I now need to get the turbo core and install it, and clean out the intercooler. The DPF will no doubt have absorbed a ton of oil and I don't know if exhaust will be able to push through it even enough to get to the point of a regen so thats a bit of a concern. I might remove it and flush it IDK.

Re the unusual method of removing (most of) the turbo, this certainly works for me but YMMV. Removing all the exhaust manifold bolts, egr attachments, oil pipes etc looked like a right PITA. What I did was none of that - I started by removing the vacuum actuator first, then the top oil feed nut and pushed the oil feed pipe out of the way a bit so I could get a spanner on the 10mm bolt it blocks (very slightly bending it - its strong and feels like it can handle it). Then undid the flexible air hose to the turbo intake (just the 2 jubilees). Then the 6 10mm bolts that hold the turbo core on to the exhaust manifold / turbo exhaust housing. Once those bolts are undone IIRC its a doddle, the turbo core & inlet housing just comes right out. The oil return pipe is a small s shaped pipe part with a double o-ring on it that inserts into the oil return downpipe that goes to the crankcase so it can twist as you remove the turbo and you pull it out (and push it back in for reassembly). Probably took an hour or less once I decided what I was going to try.

The most tricky thing is undoing the 2 10mm bolts on the underside of the turbo exhaust housing. I opted to weld a 10mm 1/4 inch socket that I had ground a bit shorter onto a bit of steel bar. Not end to end, but side by side, kind of like a socket 'offset adapter' but shorter still. That way I could insert this spanner end on to the bolt as you would a normal socket, but it gets round the fact that the turbo intake housing is blocking where the socket shaft would normally have to go. I can only use it as a 'spanner' (1/6th of a turn at a time before removing it and twisting back a 1/6th), but thats fine as the bolts are fairly free once untightened and can be turned by hand. Its still not simple (mainly because of getting to those 2 bolts underneath) but a damn sight better than taking the car half to bits to get the turbo off (for me at least). No need to get under the car at all so far. I previously undid the lower DPF bolts through the right hand driveshaft opening to the wheelarch after removing the right wheel (easy). The actuator also was fiddly to remove but I loosened the top nut on the actuator shaft, because getting to the bottom one with a spanner was hard, and then the bottom one just spun off by hand so despite the cramped space it was fine.

Anyway I thought I would document this all a bit because the only other description I could find of this problem, that did turn out right in the end, was thin on detail, so here's the same problem but described in full.
 

Peterpion

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Location
London
TDI
Seat Alhambra 2011

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
Strongly recommend a compression test with a quality tester, before you put much more time into that engine.

That much oil in the intake tract leaves open the possibility of hydrolocking and a bent rod or two, which could break later and grenade your block. A couple tablespoons in any given cylinder for just one compression cycle is all it takes.



On that engine: 450 450 100 450 :)
 

Peterpion

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Location
London
TDI
Seat Alhambra 2011
Sorry for delay and thx for that last post - I had to put it down for a few days but back on it now. I have a compression tester but never used on a diesel so I'm not sure how to but I'll check, I assume the glow plugs can come out for it but the channel that leads to the glow plug hole is probably too long for my compression tester. Maybe need a specific one. I guess if the compression is even and holds for the 'right amount' of time the bores are fine? Does that rule out any further issues like broken rings? And how long should the pressure hold (say, if it peaks at 450 how long until that pressure goes to 225?). Its been so long since I used my compression tester that I cant remember if it holds max pressure - maybe I need to use a standard pressure gauge on a custom tube suitable to screw into the glow plug hole for that.

Anyway today I washed out the intercooler with a jetwash, there will be some water left in it but I'll blow that out with a leaf blower hopefully.

My remaining concern is the DPF having taken a lot of oil. Is this a concern, and what about the SCR downstream from the DPF? Will oil damage the SCR or NOX sensor down from that? Getting the DPF off looks hard just because the 3 bolts between DPF and the remaining outlet pipe (leading to SCR first) are rusted to the point of being welded. I can't put oxyacetalene there under the car, I'm sure I would set the thing on fire, how do people remove these bolts when they are in this state? They are roughly half rusted through - can't work out what size they were originally because a lot of metal has now flaked off the outside of them, thats the state they are in. Can't fit an angle grinder in either.
 
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