Diesel cars may be the greenest

Uisge

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http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20070702_107047_107047

Diesel cars may be the greenest

Like hybrids, diesels are very fuel efficient

NANCY MACDONALD | July 2, 2007 |

Mention diesel engines to most North Americans and it conjures images of noisy, smoke-belching trucks of the past. But all that may soon change. According to analysts at UBS Warburg, by 2008 North American consumers may come to see diesel as the most promising technology for improving fuel economy and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. That, in part, may be why even diesel laggards like Toyota have recently announced plans to beef up their diesel offerings.

A surprising new report co-authored by Swiss bank UBS and the British consultancy Ricardo suggests diesels may be just as energy efficient as gas/electric hybrids, and come at a better price. Diesels offer 30 per cent better mileage than their gasoline counterparts, the equivalent of or better than hybrids. UBS says diesel's biggest advantage comes at the dealership: hybrid buyers take a hit of around US$5,000 for a mid-sized car, and almost $8,000 for a crossover, like the Lexus LX400h. In Europe, the cost premium for a diesel runs an average $2,000 compared to gas models.

Diesel already dominates Europe, where they make up more than half of all cars sold. They are gaining popularity in India and South Korea, but they've barely penetrated North America, the world's biggest car market. But UBS expects that will change by 2008, as consumer options grow. Volkswagen, which sold 20,000 diesels in 2006, is the current American pacesetter. Next-best Mercedes sold 7,000 diesel cars in the U.S. last year, an increase of 60 per cent over 2005. Its high-end competitor, BMW, is planning to launch a diesel car in the U.S. in 2008; Honda is promising one by 2009; and Nissan has announced a diesel version of their Maxima sedan will hit North America by 2010.

By 2012, as worldwide concern over global warming increases, UBS predicts diesel sales will hit 1.7 million, outpacing hybrids' predicted sales of 1.5 million. First, though, it must overcome its image problem. The humming, Hollywood-friendly Toyota Prius hybrid screams green. The diesel VW Golf? Not so much.
 

Dr Jones

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Well, OK. It doesn't really scream at all. It whistles "I have a turbo,and I'm not afraid to use it". ;)
 

donfromnaples

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At least we have more positive media about diesel exhaust. Too many articles keep using "higher emission requirements mean that it will be difficult to have a 50 state compliant diesel sold in the U.S." Instead of mentioning that the new 'clean' diesels and the newer ULSD fuel will both make diesel vehicles match or beat the emissions of other non-diesels.
 

KDG

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And why don't these articles talk about performance when comparing diesels and hybrids? The car magazines and even Consumer Reports typically put horsepower, torque and other performance features over mpg and emissions. Diesels (esp. German) offer a clear performance benefit as well as lower cost over hybrids (and many gassers), as y'all know. This needs to reach the public, too. Audi and LeMans helps, but clearly it's not enough.
 

jhintontdi

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donfromnaples said:
At least we have more positive media about diesel exhaust. Too many articles keep using "higher emission requirements mean that it will be difficult to have a 50 state compliant diesel sold in the U.S." Instead of mentioning that the new 'clean' diesels and the newer ULSD fuel will both make diesel vehicles match or beat the emissions of other non-diesels.
It will be difficult to have 50 state compliant diesels especially when the next set of emission standards go into effect in 2010. The 2008 50 state compliant diesel are not going to beat the emissions of non-diesels, they will be Tier2-Bin5 or the highest emission vehicle that is allowed to be sold.

I have to be critical of this article because it greatly exaggerates the difference in price between a hybrid and a standard car. It is not $5K. This is just the typical sloppy journalism where the author didn’t bother to compare options but just looked at the base prices. If similarly equipped the difference for a Honda Civic between the gas and hybrid is about $2K. I went through it all in a different post, search of it if you want the details.

I also believe that diesels will continue to get more expensive as more after-treatments are needed to meet emission standards. Hybrids already meet some of the lowest emission standards so this won’t be an issue. As I’ve said before, hybrid components, because they are electronics, will continue to fall in price.

They aren’t even that expensive right now. As I pointed out in another post, I can go out and buy the battery cells need to make the Honda Insight’s battery pack for about $700 at the RETAIL level. That means at the most it is costing Honda $150 to $200 but I bet it is $100 or less. The electric motor replaces the starter and generator. That just leaves the controller and wiring. This technology is not that expensive.

I just don’t see diesels taking off in the automobile sector. I do see them becoming about standard in trucks and SUV’s.
 

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jhintontdi said:
It will be difficult to have 50 state compliant diesels especially when the next set of emission standards go into effect in 2010. The 2008 50 state compliant diesel are not going to beat the emissions of non-diesels, they will be Tier2-Bin5 or the highest emission vehicle that is allowed to be sold.

I have to be critical of this article because it greatly exaggerates the difference in price between a hybrid and a standard car. It is not $5K. This is just the typical sloppy journalism where the author didn’t bother to compare options but just looked at the base prices. If similarly equipped the difference for a Honda Civic between the gas and hybrid is about $2K. I went through it all in a different post, search of it if you want the details.

I also believe that diesels will continue to get more expensive as more after-treatments are needed to meet emission standards. Hybrids already meet some of the lowest emission standards so this won’t be an issue. As I’ve said before, hybrid components, because they are electronics, will continue to fall in price.

They aren’t even that expensive right now. As I pointed out in another post, I can go out and buy the battery cells need to make the Honda Insight’s battery pack for about $700 at the RETAIL level. That means at the most it is costing Honda $150 to $200 but I bet it is $100 or less. The electric motor replaces the starter and generator. That just leaves the controller and wiring. This technology is not that expensive.

I just don’t see diesels taking off in the automobile sector. I do see them becoming about standard in trucks and SUV’s.
Unfortunately, diesel emissions are the square peg that have to fit in the round hole of gasser-oriented emissions regs.

The real facts, however, speak even more in favor of diesels. When equivalent gasoline vehicle emissions are looked at, diesels have much less hydrocarbon emissions, lower CO, and significantly lower CO2. Only NOx emissions as well as large particulates are worse in diesels, requiring increased costs in pollution controls. The black smoke that everyone thinks is so bad, although not good, mostly falls to the ground and doesn’t reach peoples’ lungs, while the invisible small particulates do.

The rules are rigged against diesels and few politicians are willing to stick their neck out and treat them fairly.

TM
 

meetis

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It is rather interesting. I learned a lot about emmisions when i converted my car to be able to run veg for a while (it is now just pure diesel ) But ya diesel verhicles in general put out less deadly emmisions then a gasser and more irritant type emmisions. Go figure we are fine with verhicles putting out invisible gasses that can kill us but totally against verhicles that put out particulates that we can see and would cause lung iritation.
I guess we would rather die and never know it rather then be bothered with a caught that we can see the possible cause of. Go figure the thinking there.
Of course a lof of the anti diesel research about emmisions was done a long time ago when diesel verhicles would leave a patch of black soot on the ground when accelerating. I heard rumors when i was very young that diesel emmisions can cause birth defects and such. I am almost certain that just about anything can be linked to birth defects now that and cancer i guess it all depends who funds the research.
I very much hope that diesels start to make a big comeback in 08. I need to have some good diesel used cars on the market for when mine rusts to death after all :)
 

keks

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The humming, Hollywood-friendly Toyota Prius hybrid screams green. The diesel VW Golf? Not so much.

Why don't they point out the fact that all Diesels can run off BIO?
Many people don't know this. Or the fact that if your ballzy enough you can run it off straight WVO,warranty voided of course.
This would be a great marketing advantage for VW or who ever.
TO make a diesel that can run B100 straight off the lot without any hassle of warranty Voids.
This,diesels not driving like goKarts and the engines lasting 5 times longer than a gasser would get the Hippy's attention faster than Phish getting back together(did they ever get back together?)Or really anyone for that matter
 
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lbhskier37

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jhintontdi said:
It will be difficult to have 50 state compliant diesels especially when the next set of emission standards go into effect in 2010. The 2008 50 state compliant diesel are not going to beat the emissions of non-diesels, they will be Tier2-Bin5 or the highest emission vehicle that is allowed to be sold.

I have to be critical of this article because it greatly exaggerates the difference in price between a hybrid and a standard car. It is not $5K. This is just the typical sloppy journalism where the author didn’t bother to compare options but just looked at the base prices. If similarly equipped the difference for a Honda Civic between the gas and hybrid is about $2K. I went through it all in a different post, search of it if you want the details.

I also believe that diesels will continue to get more expensive as more after-treatments are needed to meet emission standards. Hybrids already meet some of the lowest emission standards so this won’t be an issue. As I’ve said before, hybrid components, because they are electronics, will continue to fall in price.

They aren’t even that expensive right now. As I pointed out in another post, I can go out and buy the battery cells need to make the Honda Insight’s battery pack for about $700 at the RETAIL level. That means at the most it is costing Honda $150 to $200 but I bet it is $100 or less. The electric motor replaces the starter and generator. That just leaves the controller and wiring. This technology is not that expensive.

I just don’t see diesels taking off in the automobile sector. I do see them becoming about standard in trucks and SUV’s.
Price in the showroom might not be a $5000 premium, but price in reality sure is. They are not passing the full hit on to the customer right now, if they did no one would buy them, and they know that. Diesel exhuast aftertreatment will drop in price fast because of the huge volumes. Exhaust aftertreatment technology is shared between light duty and heavy duty engines. With the volumes involved in heavy duty engines the economies of scale will bring diesel components down fast. The same is not true for hybrids. Just because its electronics doesnt mean it will come down fast. The electronics in hybrids is very specialized and hybrids don't share the same economies of scale as diesels do with the heavy duty diesel industry. And hybrids are very new and not that refined yet. They aren't going to just keep selling the same Prius, they are going to upgrade the technology and refine it which will keep the cost up.
 

donfromnaples

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Also, the 2010 proposed EPA/CARB emission changes are geared at non-road use diesels, the widespread use of ULSD solely for all fleets, and voluntary retrofitting for existing diesels to more emission friendly diesels. These new proposals which will be voted on July 27, 2007 will not greatly affect automanufacturers of mass produced road vehicles like VW, Audi, Ford, GM, Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, etc...
http://www.epa.gov/cleandiesel/

The current solution would be to continue producing ULSD, improving upon emission controls for all new diesel vehicles, offer more convenient biodiesel options (sold at the pump more prevasively), and include the use of electric hybrid technology with diesel applications such as regenerative braking, use of lithium batteries with plug in capability that could be used on a vehicle to travel to and from work, biodiesel powered engine to recharge batteries not drive the wheels, heat exchange from exhaust conversions, government incentives for producing (manufacturers) and buying (consumers) such energy efficient vehicles, and the positive media coverage that would support such technologies to the general public.
 
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jhintontdi

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lbhskier37 said:
Price in the showroom might not be a $5000 premium, but price in reality sure is. They are not passing the full hit on to the customer right now, if they did no one would buy them, and they know that. Diesel exhuast aftertreatment will drop in price fast because of the huge volumes. Exhaust aftertreatment technology is shared between light duty and heavy duty engines. With the volumes involved in heavy duty engines the economies of scale will bring diesel components down fast. The same is not true for hybrids. Just because its electronics doesnt mean it will come down fast. The electronics in hybrids is very specialized and hybrids don't share the same economies of scale as diesels do with the heavy duty diesel industry. And hybrids are very new and not that refined yet. They aren't going to just keep selling the same Prius, they are going to upgrade the technology and refine it which will keep the cost up.
It may have cost that much back in 1999 when hybrids first came out but it doesn't now. There is no way that OEM's are selling hybrids at a loss but still continuing to expand production and offer them in more models. Besided, why doesn it matter. If I can go out a buy one for $2K more why should I care if Honda if making money on it?

What is so expensive about hybrids? The battery isn't. As I pointed out I can go out and buy the D-cells for the Honda Insight's battery for $700 at the retail level buying them one at a time. Actually that is for a battery with 35% more capacity than the Insight cells. The motor isn't expensive. it replaces two traditional components and simplifies packaging. So your telling me that it's the controller and wiring that costs $4K when a computer costs $500? I don't buy it.

I find it funny that you assume that diesel technology will stand still and not require research and redesign and thus come down in price but hybrid technology will require constant updates and remain expensive.
 

Tin Man

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Well, diesels already drive well, hybrids don't.

You pay for two drivetrains on the hybrid, only one on the diesel.

Two motors, two fuel/power systems, two transmissions. And they wear out simultaneously.

This and the fact that Toyota makes very reliable cars make it a wash.

TM
 

candrews4tdi

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One other very important point about modern diesel powerplants (4 & 6 cylinder TDI/CDI w/turbos) is that performance does not come with the big penalty of massively degrading fuel economy. That is called "having your cake and eating it too!"

Hybrids have the fuel efficiency, but do not come close to the performance or pure fun factor from torque on demand.

My overall mileage since my Rocketchip Stage 1+ upgrade in January has averaged slightly better than before.:rolleyes:
 

wn-slow

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south park says it all...

every time i think of buying a hybrid, i remember that South Park episode where Kyle's dad buyes a hybrid and then drives around showing it off, then when South Park doesnt 'convert', they move to San Francisco to be with more 'forward thinking people'....and the toxic gas the hybrid drivers create is called 'smug', thick clouds of smug.... anyway's, i would take the sound of the tdi's turbo whurr over the hybrid anyday, as many here will attest to. plus, how would you make a hybrid perform better? take it to jeff for a RCIII upgrade? contact justin for your new VR6/G60 clutch? call me naive, but i like to save the enviroment AND feel like my car has some guts:p
.....plus i dont like the smell of my own farts.....;)
 

lbhskier37

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jhintontdi said:
It may have cost that much back in 1999 when hybrids first came out but it doesn't now. There is no way that OEM's are selling hybrids at a loss but still continuing to expand production and offer them in more models. Besided, why doesn it matter. If I can go out a buy one for $2K more why should I care if Honda if making money on it?

What is so expensive about hybrids? The battery isn't. As I pointed out I can go out and buy the D-cells for the Honda Insight's battery for $700 at the retail level buying them one at a time. Actually that is for a battery with 35% more capacity than the Insight cells. The motor isn't expensive. it replaces two traditional components and simplifies packaging. So your telling me that it's the controller and wiring that costs $4K when a computer costs $500? I don't buy it.

I find it funny that you assume that diesel technology will stand still and not require research and redesign and thus come down in price but hybrid technology will require constant updates and remain expensive.
There is a big difference between a home computer and the computer in those cars. I work in the equipment industry and know how much the fairly mild electronics cost us. The electronics that go along with a hybrid drive don't come cheap. And have you looked at the cost of large DC motors? I don't know what your definition of cheap is, but an electric motor that size should be well over $1000.
 

jhintontdi

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lbhskier37 said:
There is a big difference between a home computer and the computer in those cars. I work in the equipment industry and know how much the fairly mild electronics cost us. The electronics that go along with a hybrid drive don't come cheap. And have you looked at the cost of large DC motors? I don't know what your definition of cheap is, but an electric motor that size should be well over $1000.
Yes a large electric motor like the one in the Prius is about $1000. A smaller pancake motor like the one used in the Hondas is about 1/2 that. That is retail level. A GT1749VB Tubocharger as used in my A4 TDI is $945 at tdiparts.com. Neither OEM payes anywhere near that price, the industry stardard for parts markup at the retail level is 7x OEM cost.
 

jhintontdi

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candrews4tdi said:
One other very important point about modern diesel powerplants (4 & 6 cylinder TDI/CDI w/turbos) is that performance does not come with the big penalty of massively degrading fuel economy. That is called "having your cake and eating it too!"

Hybrids have the fuel efficiency, but do not come close to the performance or pure fun factor from torque on demand.

My overall mileage since my Rocketchip Stage 1+ upgrade in January has averaged slightly better than before.:rolleyes:
I'm not quite sure what you point is here. My Prius is two seconds faster 0-60 than my TDI and gets better mileage. Yes, the handling is quite poor but that is typical of toyotas. They do sell a TRD suspension if you are interesting in improving the handling. The TDI can't come close to comparing to the mileage of the Prius here in the stop and go traffic of suburban Birmingham.

BTW, the reason you are getting better mileage and more performance with your chip is because you have defeated the emission controls. Gains made by making your car illegal don't impress me. These methods are not availabe to OEM's.
 

jhintontdi

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Tin Man said:
Well, diesels already drive well, hybrids don't.

You pay for two drivetrains on the hybrid, only one on the diesel.

Two motors, two fuel/power systems, two transmissions. And they wear out simultaneously.

This and the fact that Toyota makes very reliable cars make it a wash.

TM
This is just wrong!

First there are two different types of hybrids, Assist (Honda, GM) and Dual-Mode (Toyota, Ford).

The Honda assist type has a engine and a pancake motor between the engine and the transaxle. It doesn't have 2 transaxles. Yes, you add the pancake motor but it replaces the startor motor and the alternator. You have only one fuel system. You add a battery pack and wires too it. You also add the controller. So the additonal components are the battery, controller and wiring. You have reduced one electrical componant because the starter and alternator have been combined into the one motor.

The Toyota dual-mode system is a bit different as it allows the vehicle to move on electric power only up to 34 mph.

The Toyota system has a engine and a drive motor. These are both attached to the same transaxle. It doesn't have 2 transaxles. In place of the alternator and startor, the hybrid has one motor that acts as both a generator and a starter. It then has the same additonal battery, controller and wiring. So the dual mode system has an additional motor compared to the assist type but still the same number as a conventional car. (The alternator and starter are replace by larger more robust electric motors.)

If you look a a series hybrid like GM's Volt concept it get's even simpler. Then you have an engine, a motor that acts as a starter/generator, battery, controller, drive motor, and a single speed transaxle. You have the advantage of replacing a expensive and complicated 5 to 7 speed transaxle with a simple single speed transaxle that simply connect a single motor to both drive wheels.
 

domboy

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jhintontdi said:
replaces the startor motor and the alternator
If this is true, then why does at least the Prius still have a conventional 12 volt car battery for the Engine, and won't start if it is dead?? I've ready on hybridcars.com about Prius drivers that couldn't start their car, and the problem turned out to be a dead "starter" battery (as opposed to the big hybrid battery in the back). Here's one of the threads:

http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/prius-start-up-t1071.html
 

Tin Man

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Lets see. The typical hybrid has an extra (and expensive) battery, larger electric motor, and a way to switch between the two. These are all extra.

The two power sources are there: electricity and gasoline. Two different ways of "transmitting" power, each of which wears. Don't forget the extra stuff to create regenerative braking and coordinate everything.

Still, a well built hybrid should not have a disadvantage as this implies, just more complexity which makes repairs, problems, and decreased longevity more common and expensive.

These facts are not lost on the buying public. Hybrids have stalled in their only successful market: the US, in spite of rising fuel prices. The reality of cost and maintenance is greater than the extra thousand or less in annual fuel costs.

Still, if diesels were not available and the vehicle fulfills a need, such as city driving with a taxi (no big rush to buy Priuses from taxi fleets: why is that??), I would still look seriously at a hybrid.

It seems that in the future, locomotive type hybrids may gain market due to simply having an efficient motor generating electricity while electric motors do all the driving. We can only hope.

TM
 
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donfromnaples

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What will greatly affect emissions in diesels is fuel quality and emission control devices that the government has just begun to pressure the manufacturers for. In 1973, gasser had to undergo emissions control devices for the first time (EGR, catalytic converters, etc...) The 1974 and later cars did not cost more than the non-emission control cars relative to normal cost of living increases of autos. Adding catalytic converters, UREA injection, better ULSD at pumps will not likely increase costs to the consumers. Hybrid/electric add ons to already made engine (engines that could power the autos without the hybrid technology) including the batteries do add cost. Since the media has jumped on the hybrid bandwagon, hybrid continue to be perceived as the "in" car and continue to command a premium even on used hybrids. Hybrids at this time still use gas engines and thus will continue to have similar emissions as non-hybrid gassers. Plug-in capability will reduce this greatly since the engines will not be used very often. This will likely occur in the 3rd generation Prius.
 

jhintontdi

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domboy said:
If this is true, then why does at least the Prius still have a conventional 12 volt car battery for the Engine, and won't start if it is dead?? I've ready on hybridcars.com about Prius drivers that couldn't start their car, and the problem turned out to be a dead "starter" battery (as opposed to the big hybrid battery in the back). Here's one of the threads:

http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/prius-start-up-t1071.html
I assure you that is is true. My prius does not have an conventional alternator. It does not have a conventional starter. The Prius has combination generator / startor.

The Prius has a 12 volt starting battery because NiMH batteries self-discharge at a much higher rate than a lead-acid battery. If you were to leave a Prius for several weeks it will discharge the main NiMH battery pack. If Toyota was to rely on the main pack for starting, people that drive their vehicle infrequently would need to constantly charge the battery from an external source.

You are correct that if the 12v starting battery is discharged the vehicle will not start.
 

jhintontdi

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Tin Man said:
Lets see. The typical hybrid has an extra (and expensive) battery, larger electric motor, and a way to switch between the two. These are all extra.

The two power sources are there: electricity and gasoline. Two different ways of "transmitting" power, each of which wears. Don't forget the extra stuff to create regenerative braking and coordinate everything.

Still, a well built hybrid should not have a disadvantage as this implies, just more complexity which makes repairs, problems, and decreased longevity more common and expensive.
I don't dispute that hybrids have more complicated electronics. To me this is a natural progression that has been taking place for decades. I do dispute that electronics are more expensive to repair than mechanics. It just takes different tools and a different set of skills. For generation Y that has grown up with computers, troublshooting software and electronics is more natural than dealing with cams and turbochargers.

Tin Man said:
These facts are not lost on the buying public. Hybrids have stalled in their only successful market: the US, in spite of rising fuel prices. The reality of cost and maintenance is greater than the extra thousand or less in annual fuel costs.
Hybrid sales have not stalled. The Prius broke the top 10 in sales for the first time in May with 24,000 sold. That is up 3x over last year. Toyota is already ahead of their goal to sell 170,000 Prius this year. That is up from 100,000 last year. Honda is still selling every Civic Hybrid they can make with a 3 month waiting list in my area. The only hybrids that have been a failure are Honda's Accord Hybrid and GM's full size truck hybrids.

Tin Man said:
Still, if diesels were not available and the vehicle fulfills a need, such as city driving with a taxi (no big rush to buy Priuses from taxi fleets: why is that??), I would still look seriously at a hybrid.
I would say size. The Prius has the most room besides the Escape SUV and it will only hold 2 large suitcases with the back seats up. There have been areas that have quite a few hybrid taxis. Vancover, BC would be one.

Tin Man said:
It seems that in the future, locomotive type hybrids may gain market due to simply having an efficient motor generating electricity while electric motors do all the driving. We can only hope.
The GM Volt concept is a series type hybrid. To me this is the future of hybrids. I am not a big fan of Toyota's dual-mode hybrid. To me it is more complicated than it needs to be and doesn't take advantage of the packaging advantages available with a series hybrid.
 

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jhintontdi said:
It may have cost that much back in 1999 when hybrids first came out but it doesn't now. There is no way that OEM's are selling hybrids at a loss but still continuing to expand production and offer them in more models. Besided, why doesn it matter. If I can go out a buy one for $2K more why should I care if Honda if making money on it?

What is so expensive about hybrids? The battery isn't. As I pointed out I can go out and buy the D-cells for the Honda Insight's battery for $700 at the retail level buying them one at a time. Actually that is for a battery with 35% more capacity than the Insight cells. The motor isn't expensive. it replaces two traditional components and simplifies packaging. So your telling me that it's the controller and wiring that costs $4K when a computer costs $500? I don't buy it.

I find it funny that you assume that diesel technology will stand still and not require research and redesign and thus come down in price but hybrid technology will require constant updates and remain expensive.
I think you need to shop more than low end cars.

Toyota Highlander, same options, limit gas 30,801, limited hybrid 34, 610
 

jhintontdi

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TwoTone said:
I think you need to shop more than low end cars.

Toyota Highlander, same options, limit gas 30,801, limited hybrid 34, 610
First since a Civic or Prius Hybrid starts at $23K I don't consider them "low-end"

Second, I think you need to check your comparison a bit better. You compared a Limited V6 Gas w/ 3rd row to a Limited Hybrid without 3rd row.

To compare apples to apples (Both with 3rd row) you have:
Toyota Highlander Limited V6 W/ 3rd Row: $30,810
Toyota Highalnder Limited Hybrid W/ 3rd Row: $35,150
Hybrid Difference = $4310
(This is from Toyota's website which has an Edmunds comparison link)

Options that the gas V6 has standard that the hybrid doesn't:
Simulated Wood Grain Dash

Spec Differences:
Engine Performance = 215 hp / 222 lb-ft
EPA mileage = 19 city / 25 highway
0-60 (Motor Trend) 8.0 Sec
Standard Towing = 2000 lb

Options the the hybrid has standard that the gas V6 doesn't:
Transmission Cooler
Trailer Wiring
Chrome Grill
Heated Passenger Seat
Transmission Controls on Steering Wheel
Storage In Armrest
6 Disc CD Changer

Spec Differences:
Engine Performance = 208 hp / 212 lb-ft (Gas) 165 hp / 247 (Electric)
EPA mileage = 32 city / 27 highway
0-60 (Motor Trend) 6.6 sec
Standard Towing = 3500 lb

So yes it is about $4K more but it towes more, is faster, gets better mileage, and comes with more options. A lot of people would pay $4K just to shave 1.4 seconds off their 0-60 time! :)
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Yeah, a friend's family got the hybrid with the third seat. Very nice. Too small for us, but a very pleasing vehicle I would recommend.

TM
 

frugality

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Location
Spring Lake, Michigan
TDI
none, 2016 GTI
jhintontdi said:
You are correct that if the 12v starting battery is discharged the vehicle will not start.
I jumped a friend's Prius with my TDI Golf. The Prius has some snazzy features, including the key or transponder that you can keep in your pocket, and the car senses it as you get in. You just push the 'start' button. But this coworker left some accessory on inside (part of the car, not an aftermarket thing), and drained the battery while we were at work. I was surprised that given some of these 'smart' electronics, it wasn't smart enough to shut off the running accessory before draining the battery.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
frugality said:
I jumped a friend's Prius with my TDI Golf. The Prius has some snazzy features, including the key or transponder that you can keep in your pocket, and the car senses it as you get in. You just push the 'start' button. But this coworker left some accessory on inside (part of the car, not an aftermarket thing), and drained the battery while we were at work. I was surprised that given some of these 'smart' electronics, it wasn't smart enough to shut off the running accessory before draining the battery.
The only "accessory" on the E-class that doesn't get shut off by the computer is the headlights.

It took 2 hours of driving (to get to the dealer to fix the alternator) before the final "back-up" mode came on threatening to shut off the brakes. Each level of function would shut off systems, most non-essential ones first.

The car is basically run by computer with e-brakes and e-throttle etc.

TM
 

jhintontdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2004
Location
PDX
TDI
2014 JSW TDI DSG
frugality said:
I jumped a friend's Prius with my TDI Golf. The Prius has some snazzy features, including the key or transponder that you can keep in your pocket, and the car senses it as you get in. You just push the 'start' button. But this coworker left some accessory on inside (part of the car, not an aftermarket thing), and drained the battery while we were at work. I was surprised that given some of these 'smart' electronics, it wasn't smart enough to shut off the running accessory before draining the battery.
Is your friend a new owner? This is pretty common with new owners that are not quite used to the car turning the engine of at a stop. Your friend didn't "leave some accessory on" he didn't turn the car off.

To start the car with smart key (optional)you:
Enter the car,
Push the start button once to turn on accessories
Push the start buttton again to turn on power to the engine

Or:
Enter the car
Push and hold the brake
Push the start button to turn on accessories and power the engine.

To stop the car you also have to remember to push the start button to turn off the car. If you don't it will disable the engine but leave the accessories active. This is no different then leaving the key in "accessory mode in a conventional car. You still need to use the "computer" between your ears to turn the car on and off.
 

LRTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2002
Location
Red Sox Nation
TDI
RIP 16 GSW... Just the LR diesel now
Ricardo is an Engineering company that has been boosting and developing diesels for small cars for decades.

I'm not surprised at this positive boost for diesels coming with their involvement.

And can't wait for the new diesels to come in.
 
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