Didn't see this coming - EPA shift

[gearheadgrrrl]

This may have mentioned before, but EPA acknowledges that a shift to more electrification in medium- and heavy-duty trucks will result in an increase in primary (direct) PM2.5 emissions at least through 2055. The increase in PM2.5 emissions from electricity generation units (EGUs) more than offsets the decrease in "downstream" (i.e., emissions from the vehicle) and "refinery" PM2.5 emissions.

Direct quote from an RPA technical document:

"...In 2055, we estimate the final standards will result in a net decrease of 61 million metric tons of GHG emissions. We also estimate net decreases in emissions of NOX, VOC, and SO2 in 2055. However, we estimate a net increase in PM2.5 emissions...." ("Greenhouse Gas Emissions Standards for Heavy-Duty Vehicles: Phase 3 Regulatory Impact Analysis ," page 617)

It should also be noted that EPA doesn't anticipate a reduction in SO2 emissions until 2048 (page 626 of the RIA).

The trade-off of lower GHG emissions at the expense of an increase in some criteria air pollutants seems dubious.

One of the EV promoting groups that got my e-mail address just sent me notice of a "wonderful" new Minnesota report on all the progress we're making decarbonizing Minnesota. I actually read the relevant part of the report, and it says our electricity in Minnesota is all of 15% or so renewable if you don't count nuclear, which they don't. Even if you do count nuclear about half of our electricity is generated by gas and coal, so my E85. minivan that produces half the GHG of a gasoline fueled version is cutting GHG as much as an EV, and there is no available EV minivan at any price. And on Minnesota's "grid mix", my Golf TDI, on 20% biodiesel on a well to wheels basis produces no more GHGs than an EV hatchback, of which there are maybe few choices available. Compared to the massive EV SUVs and pickups that dominate the market, just about any TDI even on 100% petroleum diesels produces less GHG.

Hell, the government should repaying us for all the GHGs were preventing!

 

[turbodieseldyke]

True Green Renewable Energy: replace all cars with rickshaws pulled by humanoid orcs, who are 100% fueled by pet cats and wild geese.

 

[GlowBugTDI]

One of the EV promoting groups that got my e-mail address just sent me notice of a "wonderful" new Minnesota report on all the progress we're making decarbonizing Minnesota. I actually read the relevant part of the report, and it says our electricity in Minnesota is all of 15% or so renewable if you don't count nuclear, which they don't. Even if you do count nuclear about half of our electricity is generated by gas and coal, so my E85. minivan that produces half the GHG of a gasoline fueled version is cutting GHG as much as an EV, and there is no available EV minivan at any price. And on Minnesota's "grid mix", my Golf TDI, on 20% biodiesel on a well to wheels basis produces no more GHGs than an EV hatchback, of which there are maybe few choices available. Compared to the massive EV SUVs and pickups that dominate the market, just about any TDI even on 100% petroleum diesels produces less GHG.

Hell, the government should repaying us for all the GHGs were preventing!

And they rarely seem to take into account all the "clean air" we produce off crops each year. Quite a few farmers up here have negative (I think thats the right direction) carbon footprints. I don't remember the numbers but a few farmers I know absorb more carbon emissions then they emit several times over.

BTW. Nice work. I don't think I've ever agreed more with your post's than the ones in this thread. Did you have a life changing event?

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

No, I've been promoting renewable fuels and been an EV skeptic for years.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

farmers I know absorb more carbon emissions then they emit several times over.

We need to start taxing these carbon hoarders for gobbling up all the precious carbon that impoverished countries simply don't have access to. All life on Earth is carbon-based. They are literally sucking the life out of everyone else.

 

[J_dude]

Quite a few farmers up here have negative (I think thats the right direction) carbon footprints.

Exactly. Actually most of them would be at the very least “carbon neutral”. And places like us with VAST amounts of forests and fields (a solid 2/3 of my province is actually trees!) are definitely in the negatives. But nobody bothers to factor that in because they couldn’t make any money off us then could they?!
If it were actually about the environment... well, I won’t go there.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Actually, paying farmers to grow renewable fuels and sequester carbon makes more sense than making everyone buy RVs.

 

[atc98002]

What I’m trying to say is that we don’t need an “expert class” running the country. If there is a problem, it should be addressed by Congress. They are elected officials and can be held accountable for their actions. When they create these agencies and give them regulatory power, they give up their own authority to bureaucrats who aren’t accountable and can’t be voted out (the statist believe this is a feature not a bug).

I completely get your point. However, Congress would never get anything accomplished if they had to create every regulation needed by every agency. They couldn't handle the FAA requirements, let alone the entire DOT, or any other agency. I know people like to pile on government workers, and there's no doubt that some of them absolutely deserve it. But it's the broad brush condemnation that I have to push back on.

 

[atc98002]

Do you think they were "being fair" to the guy with the $10mil fine? Or to maskedman469?

I'm not defending every action ever taken by a government employee. I completely agree that there are some that are out of control, and have no business doing what they do. See my reply to K5FAL above about my intentions.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

I totally agree- Government gets was too complicated for the average politician and we need a civil service to sort out the details and keep things running. I serve on a city council and used to run the water system so I work with the bureaucracy every day, agencies like our state DOT, EPA, and Health Department have literally published textbooks that I refer to every day to keep things working. But turn the politicians loose and they do stupid stuff like the recycled asphalt they bought when I was out of town that worked no better than gravel.

 

[atc98002]

But turn the politicians loose and they do stupid stuff like the recycled asphalt they bought when I was out of town that worked no better than gravel.

My city tried that... once. The resurfaced road was so poor that it had to be completely resurfaced the "normal" way. I never saw that ever tried again.

 

[atc98002]

Do you think they were "being fair" to the guy with the $10mil fine? Or to maskedman469?

OK, I think I just read an article about the "guy" with a $10M fine. Looks to me like he deserved it, as he not only sold tens of thousands of tune kits but he did it after the company that was supplying the kits was busted and stopped selling them. So he "procured" the software to make them himself, knowing the previous company had already been fined heavily for selling the same product. No, not innocent there.

Since the vast majority of those tunes are to remove emissions controls (DPF delete, enables or even increases the ability to roll coal), and the "good old boys" like to drive around bellowing huge clouds of smoke/soot behind them, I say good riddance. I greatly enjoyed that my Passat not only didn't emit a whiff of smoke, but after 20k miles the inside of the tailpipe was still clean metal.

 

[dieseldonato]

Most fully deleted trucks with stock ish tunes won't "roll coal" just from the emission devices not being there. The "good old boys" want their trucks to do so and think it's cool. Stupid ad it may seem, I equate this to blaming mc Donald's for having a heart attack. The product is there, it's up to the individual to choose how to use it.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

I greatly enjoyed that my Passat not only didn't emit a whiff of smoke, but after 20k miles the inside of the tailpipe was still clean metal.

Your right to espouse an opinion on how these cars should be operated and maintained ended when you sold yours back. Nobody's tdi is rolling coal after being deleted.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Your right to espouse an opinion on how these cars should be operated and maintained ended when you sold yours back. Nobody's tdi is rolling coal after being deleted.

The forum member has every right to their opinion.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

Everyone has opinions. His particular opinion, on this particular subject, is of no value to the particular group of car owners he is no longer part of.

Why don't these people form their own website called former-tdi-owners.com, and complain amongst themselves about the rest of us who didn't send their cars to the crusher.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Selling a TDI, even back to VW, isn't an act of surrender. I sold my '13 back to VW and bought a stop saled '15, would have loved to keep the '13 but couldn't afford the insurance on two late model cars at once. VW didn't crush the '13, it was resold in Wisconsin and I've lost track of it. So while they'll have to pry my TDI from my "cold dead hands", I'd trade even up for a new Golf R...

 

[lemoncurd]

Selling a TDI, even back to VW, isn't an act of surrender. I sold my '13 back to VW and bought a stop saled '15, would have loved to keep the '13 but couldn't afford the insurance on two late model cars at once. VW didn't crush the '13, it was resold in Wisconsin and I've lost track of it. So while they'll have to pry my TDI from my "cold dead hands", I'd trade even up for a new Golf R...

in the same boat currently. though im sure no one can give me enough money in the right state of mind for this car.. 2013 with an accident history, and > quarter million miles......

but yeah, if a dealer gave me a sweet deal on a trade in for a new golf r i would be SERIOUSLY tempted

 

[atc98002]

Nobody's tdi is rolling coal after being deleted.

That's not true and you know it. I've seen coal rolling from VWs as well as the big trucks. Fortunately most VW owners are more intelligent than that.

 

[atc98002]

Everyone has opinions. His particular opinion, on this particular subject, is of no value to the particular group of car owners he is no longer part of.

I'm glad you're not running the world. Who's to say I might not pick up another TDI? I still strongly support diesel as a way to conserve petroleum resources. It's just unfortunate that there's nothing available in the US any longer, and likely will never return.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

That's not true and you know it. I've seen coal rolling from VWs

I don't know that. I've never seen it, unless someone reposted a youtube moron "showing off".

 

[1kmiletdi]

Not surprising with all the talk about removing the power of the EPA or dismantling altogether. They're looking for a way to retain their jobs. Now if only someone would curb CARB!

curb? hell c.a.r.b needs to demolished

 

[pkhoury]

Oh f*ck. Now they're actually intercepting packages. That's pretty nuts!

 

[pkhoury]

Shoot, this is what happens when I eat Taco Bell:

Hey, Taco Hell is a great laxative when you've been constipated for a day or two! That $hit comes right out, no pun intended!

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

Oh f*ck. Now they're actually intercepting packages. That's pretty nuts!

And getting hit with a possible restocking fee as well.

Well boy's, it was fun while it lasted.

 

[ksing44]

...So while they'll have to pry my TDI from my "cold dead hands", I'd trade even up for a new Golf R...

I kept my 2010 MK6 Golf TDI (manual) now with 205K miles and bought a 2019 MK7.5 Golf R (manual) with 13K miles. The 2019 Golf R now has 20K miles. The 2010 Golf TDI is not deleted, just a CP3 HPFP. Both are amazing cars!

on Flickr

 

[oilhammer]

It really sucks that the delete option seems to be vanishing for these cars, because if you can get away with it, it really does make them far more reliable and far less expensive to operate in the long run. But... it also sucks that you'd have to do it to get them that way in the first place.

I'm torn, because to me the completely stock as it left the factory CR cars (all of the various engines) not only run spectacularly well when they are working correctly, but they are also spectacularly clean despite what the EPA morons say. You could never "white glove" the insides of the tailpipes on a VE or PD TDI, in fact a lot of gassers you couldn't either. These things never emitted even a hint of visible smoke, no matter how hard you mashed the pedal, and even following one up a big hill on the highway at triple digit speeds (yes, I've done this) shows nothing, nor any stink like you smell with even modern gas engines.

But the EPA said they're "bad".

How bad are all these Priuses that puke an engine up every 100k miles? We've got TWO in the shop right now!

 

[atc98002]

You could never "white glove" the insides of the tailpipes on a VE or PD TDI, in fact a lot of gassers you couldn't either.

I remember that from my '14 Passat. After two years and more than 20k miles the tailpipe was spotless. My daughter's '13 GTI tailpipes were completely covered with soot/whatever and I always struggled to keep the chrome tailpipes clean. My TDI was far cleaner.

 

[kjclow]

The one thing that always amazed me was how cool the tailpipes were. When I picked up the first U-haul with the JSW, the wiring harness was stuck up above the rear bumper shelf. While trying to fish it out, I brushed my bare arm against the tailpipe. Barely warm. On a gasser, it would have been at least second-degree burns.

 

[DPM]

The one thing that always amazed me was how cool the tailpipes were. When I picked up the first U-haul with the JSW, the wiring harness was stuck up above the rear bumper shelf. While trying to fish it out, I brushed my bare arm against the tailpipe. Barely warm. On a gasser, it would have been at least second-degree burns.

Ummm, totally different picture when there's a regen going on...