Details on the new VW TDI engine at the TDIFest

TornadoRed

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2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
jollyGreenGiant said:
Sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad.
That smacks of coersion -- what if I don't want the good? ;)
 

red golf tdi

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......diesel no longer means irritating noise, awful smell and black sooty smoke.
Funny.....they've [the media] been saying this exact statment for 12 years since the TDIs introduction in the U.S.

I think this shows that VW needs to advertise the TDI more! :)
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
red golf tdi said:
Funny.....they've [the media] been saying this exact statment for 12 years since the TDIs introduction in the U.S.

I think this shows that VW needs to advertise the TDI more! :)
Yeah, ane even my pre-TDI 1991 Jetta diesel is not really noisy or smokey...although it is a bit "glacial" in the acceleration dept. :rolleyes:
 

dee_zell

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oilhammer said:
There is a video on youtube right now of a Euro-spec Outlander (I think) that clearly has a factory-installed Volkswagen TDI under the hood. They just stuck the Mitsu-logo on the cover. Chrysler also uses VAG diesels in their smaller FWD offerings there as well.

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4eJ0ExV3Eg

it is in French I believe. It is the 2.0L DI-D. Look closely at the dipstick and oil fill cap. The title reads something about a "diesel heart" ;)
Yes, it's VW but there are news in Europe that Mitsu will be ready with their own 2-liter in 2009 all new, cleaner, more powerful. Anyway, they have decades of experience building diesels of all sizes.

oilhammer said:
So if the Japanese diesels are so great, why is Mitsubishi (a very LARGE company) using German engines under the hood? Toyota has teamed up with GM for diesel technology (via GM's Isuzu affiliation) and Nissan is owned by Renault, so all their upcoming diesel tech is through their French stewards.
I think for two main reasons:
-lack of interest in diesel engines for passenger cars made for the US market
-import restrictions traditionally blocking European markets

For decades Japanese companies have concentrated their interest on American markets which traditionally are diesel free with small interest in European market for reasons described above.

To avoid EU restrictions they had to merge with European companies until now. Since 2003 the situation changed with the accommodation of the Eastern European markets by the EU. The new members had no problems inviting Japanese automakers and anything made inside the newly expanded EU is import tax free plus cheaper labour makes their cars more attractive. So now these companies are motivated to have their own engines including diesel units.

oilhammer said:
Only Honda (and just recently at that) has taken on the diesel challenge mostly in-house. And I for one would have to see some more proof of their long term durability, which has not been shown to anyone since they have only been around for a couple years....I have Volkswagen diesels in my driveway that were on the road when Honda still had carburetors!

Oh, and Suzuki uses Euro diesels as well. The diesel Vitara uses a Peugot engine as there is a club member here in New Zealand that has one.
I don't think they are out of touch. They know diesels, have performed their own research but till now there've been no markets for Jap diesels and I can bet when they start building diesels they'll do it right. That diesel Civic I mentioned is really something grabbing attention. I've driven different diesels in Europe, mostly German made but never something so smooth and quiet. That's why I say Japanese automakers are well prepared to enter the diesel market and I'm confident it won't be any worse than VW engines if not better.

oilhammer said:
I have owned 2 Toyota diesels, a Mazda diesel powered Ford, and a Nissan diesel powered IH. The Japanese diesels are not bad, but it is all just copycat stuff and the Germans still seemed to do some things better. But I have no doubt the newer Japanese stuff is better than the older stuff.
Neither do I. Everything they produce is just copycat stuff except sushi and bonsai but they are good at that and they know how to make improvements and with their marketing skills they can well compete with the big diesel players.
 

chewy

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Now that I have thought about it, I expect the 2008/9 Jetta TDI to be rated at around 35/45 (best case) Making it the 3rd most fuel efficient vehicle on sale in the US.

Of course I could be off some because of new variables such as new EPA test and no baseline European data.
 
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TooMuchBoost

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While I can appreciate the VW can do no wrong loyalty on this forum the fact is TDIClub members have not and will never support VW by themselves and apparently VW isn't building the cars that the US wants to buy.

VW's dismal sales performance over the last several years, which somehow led to their ignorant thinking that moving their US HQ from MI to VA will fix things, is all the proof you need.

While we saw a spike in crude today unless its sustained for a long period of time or becomes much more frequent leading to well over $3 per gallon the typical American is going to laugh at a 140hp VW that might get upper 30's on the hwy once all the new emission crap is factored in.

VW will always be an economy car brand to the typical US buyer and VW needs to trim their line accordingly since the Koreans are already here and the Chinese are on the way. Time has proven VW can not sell a car over $25K in any quantity to the US consumer.

Either they adjust or they go away.
 

BeetleGo

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TooMuchBoost said:
While I can appreciate the VW can do no wrong loyalty on this forum the fact is TDIClub members have not and will never support VW by themselves and apparently VW isn't building the cars that the US wants to buy.
I wouldn't lumb us all into this catagory. Some people are in fact shop-able and will consider Japanese, Korean, other Germans, and even US offerings as they appear.

TooMuchBoost said:
While we saw a spike in crude today unless its sustained for a long period of time or becomes much more frequent leading to well over $3 per gallon the typical American is going to laugh at a 140hp VW that might get upper 30's on the hwy once all the new emission crap is factored in.
The new diesel will get significantly better MPG than your model, which was a weak point about the PD (if you ask me). I saw the '08 at TDIfest this year - automatic will get in the 40's, stick shift even better.

TooMuchBoost said:
VW will always be an economy car brand to the typical US buyer and VW needs to trim their line accordingly since the Koreans are already here and the Chinese are on the way. Time has proven VW can not sell a car over $25K in any quantity to the US consumer.

Either they adjust or they go away.
The Chinese have much further to go than the Koreans did. I figure they have a good 20 years to go before they are competative, if not more.

~BeetleGo
 

dsimpson313

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chewy said:
Now that I have thought about it, I expect the 2008/9 Jetta TDI to be rated at around 35/45 (best case) Making it the 3rd most fuel efficient vehicle on sale in the US.

Of course I could be off some because of new variables such as new EPA test and no baseline European data.
What is your basis for that thinking? Have you seen some documentation to that effect? The only (non-official) published info I've seen says 40/60 c/h mpg.
 

dsimpson313

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TooMuchBoost said:
While I can appreciate the VW can do no wrong loyalty on this forum the fact is TDIClub members have not and will never support VW by themselves and apparently VW isn't building the cars that the US wants to buy.
I've only owned Honda/Acura the past 10+ years, and have never owned a VW. But I'm interested in the diesel technology which they do well, and I like wagon's and hatchback's, which they still offer here. I say all of that to say they have appeal to those outside of the VW faithful or I wouldn't be here.

However, your point is not lost. If Honda comes out with a diesel vehicle that meets my needs and fits my budget, it won't take much convincing for me to stick with what I've known for so many years. I've had one non-maintenance issue on six H/A products in that time, and it was a factory recall, paid for in full by Honda. That's tough to beat. And I know that Honda's diesel engine will be top notch (as will the Subie boxer diesel that is forthcoming).
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
6 Hondas in 10 years...see that fits the perfect throwaway car buyer, in which case the Honda product is PERFECT for you.

I've had (as daily drivers) only half as many Volkswagens but over a 20 year span. One of them I still drive daily...and it is 16 years old! So for me Volkswagen products make more sense. I could not have bought a new Honda in 1991 and put nearly 400k miles on it in our climate and have it claim what my A2 Jetta can.
 

jollyGreenGiant

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6 Hondas in 10 years...see that fits the perfect throwaway car buyer, in which case the Honda product is PERFECT for you.

I've had (as daily drivers) only half as many Volkswagens but over a 20 year span. One of them I still drive daily...and it is 16 years old! So for me Volkswagen products make more sense. I could not have bought a new Honda in 1991 and put nearly 400k miles on it in our climate and have it claim what my A2 Jetta can.
Excellent comment, I too recognized a long time ago that for the long haul VW's ( and European cars in general ) are far greater than their appliance counterparts. Even the brake lines on VW products last forever, find me any 1980's Toyota or Honda product that has lived in New England that hasn't dissolved into a rust heap and I'll show you 20 VWs that have endured the same conditions and are still quite healthy, the newer ones are even better in this regard. To me, that is what it's all about. A product that withstands the test of time in many ways. Yes, each chassis has its quirks but they aren't anything more than a nuisance usually...

I pretty much dislike throwaway anything though so I'm biased...
 

dsimpson313

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oilhammer said:
6 Hondas in 10 years...see that fits the perfect throwaway car buyer, in which case the Honda product is PERFECT for you.

I've had (as daily drivers) only half as many Volkswagens but over a 20 year span. One of them I still drive daily...and it is 16 years old! So for me Volkswagen products make more sense. I could not have bought a new Honda in 1991 and put nearly 400k miles on it in our climate and have it claim what my A2 Jetta can.
Well, aren't we quick to judge! Let's take a look at the history here boys, shall we?

1990 Accord LX - totaled in accident, not my fault
1996 Integra SE - totaled in accident, not my fault
2000 CR-V - hadn't second child, no longer fit lifestyle, upgraded to Odyssey for my wife.
2001 Odyssey - still own, may replace with VW Sportwagen TDI
1994 Accord EX - Owned for 10 years, ran her up to 180k miles, donated to an older lady in my church who did not own a car and had to walk to work in the cold Indiana winters
2006 TSX - Replaced old Accord, my current daily.

Next time you want to make critical comments toward someone, you might ask a question first. Your comments were pretty short sighted and off the cuff without knowing a darn thing about me.

And yes, you could have bought a Honda in 1991 and put 400k on it - I know people who have done it. The rear quarter panel rust issue was a problem, I'll grant you that, but it's been fixed long ago (over a decade ago).

As far as me being a “throwaway” car buyer, I take offense to that. As you can clearly see (above), life happens. Also, your insinuation seems to be that Honda’s are not good long term cars. What basis do you have for that? And before you answer, realize you are comparing your diesel engines to gassers – apples and oranges. I realize you are a diesel fan – guess what, so am I. Difference is I just learned about the benefits of diesel a year ago – forgive my ignorance to that point. I had 180k trouble free miles with our ’94 Accord, and it is still purring along today with its new owner. How many VW gasser owners out there can say that? I can show you lots of Honda owners who have that long term experience. Also, Honda data shows that the average new Honda car buyer keeps their vehicle 12 years. To me, that is pretty long term, but to each his own. Sure my old Accord had a small rust spot on one rear quarter panel. Big deal. At least it wasn’t in the shop for falling windows and coil replacements like my buddies Jetta (16 trips to the shop for non-maintenance issues in 5-1/2 years). I had 1 trip in 10+ years.

I’m not sure what I did to solicit your remarks. My post above was to simply show that VW can draw on hard core Japanese car owners like myself into their fold by offering quality diesel cars in configurations (wagons) not offered by the Japanese. I think VW has more ergonomic cars than Honda, and they offer more standard safety features that are optional on Honda which is a big selling point for me. I like the styling better too in most cases. But if I had my choice between a diesel Honda and diesel VW both with the same fuel economy, relative cost and features, I’d be hard pressed not to go with Honda due to its much, much higher reliability factor. That was my point.

I’m open minded about switching from Honda. What more do you want?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well first, friend, I am a professional auto technician specializing in Volkswagen, Toyota and Honda...so yes I do know a few things about the ins and outs of these cars...far more than you do, I guarantee.

Second, I was not talking down to you nor saying your methods were somehow in error, merely different than my own. You are more like most Americans, moreso than I am, and there is no problem with that at all. I think Hondas are excellent vehicles, and I endorse quite a few of them to folks who what that short term appliance. 180k miles to me is short term. Again, I know I am in a minority.

And with a shop full of the three above mentioned makes every day, I have a very good handle on what lasts in our area and what does not. And I would pit the longevity of a Volkswagen up against a Honda any day. Virtually every Honda I see with over 120k miles uses oil...sometimes quite a bit. Their catalysts (which are expensive) die routinely (just google that one if you like). CV joints and boots are still an issue. Rust is STILL an issue in our area. I just replaced front springs on a '99 Civic last week that had rusted in half. Both lower suspension link bolts were rusted and siezed in their bores, the lower rockers were bubbled and popping apart, caliper carrianges were a rusty lump, etc.

What you need to realize is that yes, Hondas are very reliable and trouble free cars statistically for the first 100k to 150k miles. Nobody would argue that. Although there are some newer things that are beginning to even change my mind, like the $1200 A/C repair bill on a 2003 Accord sedan I did last week....at 39k miles! And is this common? Well, first one I have seen BUT the local dealer keeps all the parts in stock for this repair. Then I noticed the "made in China" tag on the wiring harness under the hood of the same car :rolleyes:

I did not mean for my comment to be offensive, and I am sorry you took it that way.

It still stands that the average mileage of my average VW customer is far higher than the average mileage of one of my Honda or Toyota customers. I still regularly get Volkswagens, gas and diesels, in here with over 300k miles on them. 200k miles is a weekly thing (I have 2 here now with over 200k for PM). But the last Honda I saw with over 200k was easily over a year ago, and it was a clapped out '93 Accord with a wiped out automatic transmission.

And FWIW, my sister bought a 2004 Civic 3 weeks before we bought our 2004 Passat. Our Passat has had ZERO problems, her Civic has been back to the dealer a half dozen times. My dad bought a 2003 Element leftover in 2004, and it too has seen some warranty visits to the dealer. I have a brother with a '98 Civic and two brother-in-laws with '97 Civics, and ALL of these cars have needed power window regulators. ;)
 
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dsimpson313

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Brian, I fully respect your professional opinion and I realize you know way more than I do. I was merely trying to point out my experiences with Honda and my circumstances. I did not mean to offend you and I apologize for taking your comments out of context. They appeared to be an attack. Again, my sincere apology - we're straight.

Your families troubles from my perspective are unique, but perhaps Honda is experiencing the same growing pains as Toyota. My most recent car ('06 TSX) has been flawless except for a squeaky driver seat - fixed in 40 minutes during an oil change.

Now back to the issue at hand - what are your thoughts on the new (to us) common rail diesel? Have you seen it yet? Do you think the new emissions equipment will kill the mpg or is 40/60 feasible? I would like your input on it.

And while I'm at it and have your attention, has VW/Audi worked out the kinks with the DSG? I had read of a number of early failures on those. That coupled with a high maintenance cost on the unit has me wanting for the ole' 5 speed.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
I think the Commonrail engines will improve fuel economy. Reason I say this is that we only need to look at MB to see how well they can do: the 6 cylinder E class diesel (which is either a 3.2L inline 6 or the newer 3.0L V6...both CR) can get fuel economy rivaling my 4 cylinder B5 Passat...and the MB engines really have some incredible output.

Even the CR 2.7L 5 cylinder in the through-2006 Sprinter enabled some pretty impressive numbers for a big van.

So yeah, I think the CR engines will be BETTER than the PD in terms of fuel economy, performance, and plus they are super quiet thanks to the science of CR.

For me the court is still out on the DSG. I'd still stick to rowing my own gears if I had the choice. There have been some DSG failures, but as of now I myself have not seen one personally. But the DSG-equipped cars in my customer base is admittedly pretty small, and of those cars only one (a 2004 NB TDI) has passed 100k miles.

The DSG is a really neat design, and works really well. The only thing yet to be proven is the longevity. We already know how much "fun" they are to drive, despite being an autobox. :cool:

If you want a preview of what CR does for a diesel, go test drive a Sprinter, or one of the fine MB diesels available here now. You can get a diesel E class, R class, and GL class. The E class is a very nice ride.
 

TheLongshot

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My wife has a 10+ year old Toyota Tercel that's still going, but the bills to fix it are getting pricy. The last time it was in the shop a couple of months ago, it was an $800 bill.

My wife is completely sold on VW after the experiences I've had with my Jetta Wagon. Her big adjustment when driving my car is adjusting to the breaks, since they are so much better than her Tercel. She also wants to get a diesel, partially because of the fuel savings, and partially because of nostalgia. (Her grandfather owned a Mercedes Diesel.)

We are mostly just waiting for VW to get on the ball and get the diesels back.

Jason
 

chewy

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dsimpson313 said:
What is your basis for that thinking? Have you seen some documentation to that effect? The only (non-official) published info I've seen says 40/60 c/h mpg.
Estimation based on European and EPA ratings of similar vehicles.
 

dee_zell

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BeetleGo said:
The Chinese have much further to go than the Koreans did. I figure they have a good 20 years to go before they are competative, if not more.~BeetleGo
I think they are planning to be on the Moon in less than 20 years using their own vehicles. I'm pretty sure they will land their vehicles in America in less than 10 years.
 

lbhskier37

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dee_zell said:
I think they are planning to be on the Moon in less than 20 years using their own vehicles. I'm pretty sure they will land their vehicles in America in less than 10 years.
They might be here in less than 10 years, just like you could buy a Kia or Hyundai over 10 years ago. But it took the Korean cars about 10 years of being in the US before they were worth buying.
 

dee_zell

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lbhskier37 said:
They might be here in less than 10 years, just like you could buy a Kia or Hyundai over 10 years ago. But it took the Korean cars about 10 years of being in the US before they were worth buying.
Well, for many buyers the reliability and crash test results are the last things they look at. Secondly, the auto-market has changed a lot since the introduction of Korean cheappos. We have better access to test results today as you can see on youtube than 20 or 30 years ago and that really means something. Chinese automakers may sell these cars in China under the communist party ruling that every citizen has to buy one but they have to convince Americans and show them on youtube that the Landwind performs no worse than the worst American car.

And again I'm pretty sure they can quickly improve it and add $20 to the suggested retail price.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
I do not think the Communist party "forces" anyone in China to buy a specific car. Reason I say that is starting in I believe it was 2005 China was the largest buyer of Audi vehicles outside Germany...even more than the car hungry USA. And Volkswagen remains one of the largest car companies there.

The difference as I see it is that the Chinese public has a choice of lesser vehicles that may seem cheap and unsafe to us, but to them compared to a bicycle or motorcycle they are just fine. I've never been in an accident, even with over 1 million miles of driving under my belt, so I'd take my chances in a car that is perhaps less safe than some others. No different than driving my 25+ year old cars to me. But that is my choice.
 
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dee_zell

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oilhammer said:
I do not think the Communist party "forces" anyone in China to buy a specific car. Reason I say that is starting in I believe it was 2005 China was the largest buyer of Audi vehicles outside Germany...even more than the car hungry USA. And Volkswagen remains one of the largest car companies there.
It is actually the largest foreign automaker in China selling more vehicles there than they sell in America controlling about 17% of the Chinese market (Wikipedia) and this fast growing market creates pressure on the oil market rising interest in more fuel efficient technologies incl. diesel engines.
 

TooMuchBoost

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For those here who believe the new TDI's will not only equal but see noticeably better MPG's compared to the PD TDI it replaced (in a comparable chassis) simply because VW switched to dated yet very proven common rail technology (which will also run on the new less efficient USLD) riddle me this:

When in the last 10 or so years and/or 3 diesel motor evolutions has a new gen TDI reported better MPG's than the previous gen TDI it replaced when in a comparable chassis?

Bonus when in the last 10 years and/or 3 motor evolutions has a new gen Cummins, Duramax (since inception) or Powertroke p/u diesel produced more MPG's (in a like chassis) than the previous gen diesel it replaced?

BTW- I'm curious how could VW lose significant US diesel car sales because it couldn't make an 07/08 compliant motor in time even with pre-existing common rail technology yet some think in the same delayed process VW managed to find more MPG's out of emission strict motors that now run on less efficient USLD?

While not the same the countless 08 Powerstroke, Cummins and Duramax owners who are all but crying on the diesel forums because they are getting an unexpected 10-13 MPG in an unloaded p/u tells me the odds of VW getting more MPG's from an 07/08 emissions motor are slim to none.

Your MPG guess is as good as mine at this point but my money is on LESS!
 
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jollyGreenGiant

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I've never been in an accident, even with over 1 million miles of driving under my belt, so I'd take my chances in a car that is perhaps less safe than some others. No different than driving my 25+ year old cars to me. But that is my choice.
You've never driven in Massachusetts... It's not about whether or not you are a good driver.
 

Doonie

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TooMuchBoost said:
BTW- I'm curious how could VW lose significant US diesel car sales because it couldn't make an 07/08 compliant motor in time even with pre-existing common rail technology yet some think in the same delayed process VW managed to find more MPG's out of emission strict motors that now run on less efficient USLD?

Your MPG guess is as good as mine at this point but my money is on LESS!
Because removing NOx after combustion allows a much leaner mixture?
Did the high sulphur content add to energy density?
I'll take that bet. How much?
 

donfromnaples

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Take a look at the testing results of the new Accord diesel. That is why VW has to offer a high mpg diesel option. And yes PD is not as efficient and the common rail do achieve better mpg results. The problem I have is the choice of hp and lbs. ratings. Why doesn't VW intend on offering a CR 100hp 177lbs 1.9 or 2.0 diesel instead of the more powerful 2.0 which will likely reduce mpg to some extent? A Rabbit with a 2.0 CR diesel rated at 100 hp and 177 lbs./ft torque could return mpg figures close to 60.
 

chewy

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Not in the EPA ratings. In Europe the manual Jetta with the same unit in the 06 US Jetta is rated at 5.2 liters per 100 km. The DSG version is rated at 6.0. But the EPA rates the DSG better than the manual version. The 140 hp PD unit is rated at 5.6 in the Jetta with both DSG/Manual. So this basically means that the difference between 103 and 140 hp PD units is inconclusive at best. Now, the 140 common rail unit on the new A4 is rated at 5.5, and remember that the new A4 is a 5+ inch longer car riding on a 10 inch longer wheelbase.

This is why with the tougher 08 EPA rules, the new Jetta should be rated at around 35/45, or a couple mpg better than the last Jetta TDI. You can see the same with the Fit and the Civic, 106 and 140 hp and no EPA mpg difference. Of course the Jetta should probably get better real life fuel economy. But I doubt that a 100 hp version would get better EPA ratings or even real life mpg. Plus, it is unknows if the PD unit could even pass Bin 5 emission test.
 

Thunderstruck

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Bear in mind these are government figures-your mileage may vary as most here can attest to. I have a car rated 37/44 and my actual mileage, confirmed with pencil and paper is around 45/55. It's all a matter of motivation.
 
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