dealer checking fuel quality

geodug

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thats because only in America do we have 4th amendment :D:D
When you think about it, everyone (not just Americans) should be protected against unreasonable search and seizure.
VWoA should give every contributor of sample fuel a letter describing the purpose and intent of this program. The letter should also thank them for their participation and assure them that their warranty(s) will not be affected in any way as a result of their cooperation.
As long as there is some public perception that VWoA in not honoring warranties then the consumers are owed this assurance.
 

TwoTone

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If VWA wants fuel samples, they can go to each and every retail diesel outlet they so choose and buy some material straight from the pump. Taking samples from the tanks of owners who happen to drive into their establishment for warranty service is not right. In fact carrying it to its ultimate conclusion, it is against the 4th amendment found in the US Bill of Rights.

That is as bad as all the Free speech complaints on a privately held forums.
 

jasedavid1

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mi
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2010 sportwagen
I spoke with the service manager today. this is what he said,

-VW is collecting 20 samples from each of the 13 dealers in MI, and other samples around the country
-the samples are random and not tied to your vehicle , VW will not trace the fuel back to your car
-the point is to see the fuel quality around the country
-they will not use this to deny a warranty claim
-he cannot give a copy of the results of the fuel test because it is random and even the dealership does not get the results

I asked if they have had any Hpfp failures at their dealership and he said none so far.
 

cardinarky

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jasedavid1:

First of all, thank you for the information. It gives a tremendous amount of food for thought. I would think they would have quite a data sheet of information to manipulate and evaluate the resultant data. It's too bad that they are not going to make the information public to TDI owners since the samples are specifically unknown.
I personally would like to see how many samples have traces of gasoline, water content, off road fuel etc.. Additionally how many of us are using additives etc..
The point I see though because they are looking for in vehicle specific sampling is that evidently the HPFP manufacturers and raw material suppliers are finding that it is not a problem in that area but rather a problem in fuel manufacture or owner misuse.
Again thanks for the information.
 

TwoTone

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I spoke with the service manager today. this is what he said,

-VW is collecting 20 samples from each of the 13 dealers in MI, and other samples around the country
-the samples are random and not tied to your vehicle , VW will not trace the fuel back to your car
-the point is to see the fuel quality around the country
-they will not use this to deny a warranty claim
-he cannot give a copy of the results of the fuel test because it is random and even the dealership does not get the results

I asked if they have had any Hpfp failures at their dealership and he said none so far.
They could do that from stations directly. Call me an alarmist all you want. Taking it direct from tanks sounds more like fishing for a result and hoping they can go to NHTSA and say, see it's not the pumps, it's the stupid customer using above B5, additives etc.. and getting out of a recall.
 

epc

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They could do that from stations directly. Call me an alarmist all you want. Taking it direct from tanks sounds more like fishing for a result and hoping they can go to NHTSA and say, see it's not the pumps, it's the stupid customer using above B5, additives etc.. and getting out of a recall.
"-the point is to see the fuel quality in the car tanks around the country" -- There, are you happy now?
 

cardinarky

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Over the past 10 years, the demeanor of quite a few of the posters on these forums has gone from supportive and helpful and investigative, to completely hostile toward the poster and not the subject of the post itself.
This particular post started out with a TDI owner simply stating what happened to him during his visit to the service area of his new car dealership, while he was trying to work out a stereo problem.

Because during my career, I worked in and managed a technical failure analysis lab for a steel company, I made a sarcastic (most people don't understand sarcasm today unless you inform them beforehand that the following statement is intended to be sarcastic) comment regarding VWA and their approach. For that I was subsequently belittled for my blatant stupidity regarding the facilities at Bosch.
I made another comment, simply stating what the AMERICAN BILL OF RIGHTS states in Amendment 4, and what a individual owner was obligated to provide to VWA or anyone for that matter, and was immediately bundled in with any and all WACKO POLITICAL radio talk forums (I strongly believe in the 2nd Amendment too). The last time I checked both Republicans and Democrats were still considered AMERICANS and referring to the Constitution did not make you a wacko.

The point of this current response is to explain to those who care, and those with reading comprehension problems too (oh I didn't say sarcasm is coming before writing that, too bad P-nut) that over the past three model years there have been problems with the fuel systems in the VW TDIs driven in the United States.
It is (to the engineering mind) obvious by the request from VW for a fuel sample from the individual TDI owners' tank, that the wholesale diesel fuel supplier has evidenced to VW that the problem is not theirs.
It can also be inferred that the material suppliers have vindicated themselves from blame also.
I still don't buy that the total chain of material suppliers are clean, from what I have seen in the processing anomolies in the scores of cold forging operations and subsequent heat treatment facilities that I have audited during my career.
I would also hazard to say that VW has, to a statistically acceptable quantity of data points, and "6 sigma" resultant, satisfied themselves that the problem is not with the retail fuel seller.
VW is now at the end of the line, sampling the fuel in the tanks of the end user, us, the owners. And I will bet that in random sampling of fuel in our tanks they are going to find various trace problems, to in their minds, a significant degree.
I say this because those of us who are on this board, and have been for several years, will not be going to the dealer for work on our cars in the first place, and the preponderance of new TDI purchasers are new first time diesel buyers.
Now we have had reports on the board from newbies that they have from partially to a full tank, refueled with gasoline. A few have caught the problem before they turned the key, several have not.
To find a problem with a sample in a laboratory it simply depends on how tightly you want to standardize the machine and what National Bureau of Standards calibration standard you are working with. Most samples will probably test clean but I would bet "6 sigma" will not test clean. Based on that testing, VW will turn a colder shoulder to the victim of a future failure.

I still think the cause of the problem is (very random) with the forger/heat treater and resides in inconsistent inadequately controlled finished forged part cooling rates.
 

kjclow

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Seems like the most scientific way to answer questions posed in this thread would be to:
1. Collect a sample from the pump during a normal fill
2. Pull fuel samples from the tank prior to leaving the station
3. Pull fuel samples at different intervals through the life of that fill up: i.e. every 50 or 100 miles until almost empty
4. Repeat through at least 2500 miles on each vehicle tested
5. Needs to be done around the US, Canada, and different countries in Europe to get a true presentation of what is really going on from pump to bottom of the tank.
6. Needs to include all models and all years

I would want to look at a minimum of 5% of the CR diesels on the road.
 

epc

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I'll say this. I know for certain that Bosch has long been very well aware of the variability in the US Diesel in cetane and lubricity, and the problem of water and particulate in the fuel. Does VW know? I don't have the personal knowledge to say so, but I would be shocked if it didn't.

So basically, at least Bosch has already done the simple task of surveying the Diesel quality at the depot and the retail pump levels. Again, if VW hadn't done this itself or hadn't been advised by Bosch of the results, I would have been very surprised.

The point is, VW / Bosch clearly haven't found anything statistically significant in the fuel quality investigations so far. And if you think they haven't collected enough blown up hpfp's and traced back through date and lot codes to investigate problems in the manufacturing processes, then you should believe that VW / Bosch are rank amateurs and do not deserve to be the top manufacturers that they are.

Given the hpfp problems are clustered in the US, and given that the fuel investigations at the US depot and retail levels have yielded nothing that they don't already know, and given that nothing has been found in the manufacturing processes, then the only logical thing they can do is to verify their key assumption so far, which is: pump Diesel fuel = the fuel that blows up the hpfp's. And to verify this assumption means checking the fuel quality in the car tanks.

Very natural and logical, no?

To me this is a logical engineering investigation process. And to see people getting paranoid about this and starting talking about the 4th amendment, I guess, makes me double-check the forum title: am I in a technical car forum, or a legal forum?

Do I sound like I have seen Bosch documents that most of you probably haven't seen? Then yes, that's probably true. Bosch is a huge organization that makes everything from power tools to ABS, and has all kinds of joint ventures, daughter companies, groups and divisions, in all corners of the world. Everyone affiliated with Bosch can go to Bosch Diesel System's internal website and look at the documents that the group chooses to put out for the purpose of general education and awareness.

None of the documents addresses the hpfp problem in the US, so you guys don't have to get excited. But it is a matter of record that the group knows of the US Diesel fuel quality variations, from years back. And if the group knew it, and did nothing to mitigate the pump for the VW application in the US market, you can bet the group leader would have to answer for himself in front of the corporate board in Stuttgart as to why he damaged the Bosch reputation.
 

kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
It is (to the engineering mind) obvious by the request from VW for a fuel sample from the individual TDI owners' tank, that the wholesale diesel fuel supplier has evidenced to VW that the problem is not theirs.
It can also be inferred that the material suppliers have vindicated themselves from blame also.
I still don't buy that the total chain of material suppliers are clean, from what I have seen in the processing anomolies in the scores of cold forging operations and subsequent heat treatment facilities that I have audited during my career.
I would also hazard to say that VW has, to a statistically acceptable quantity of data points, and "6 sigma" resultant, satisfied themselves that the problem is not with the retail fuel seller.
My assumption based on your comments, and those of others through out this board, is that the fuel suppliers are saying that it is not their problem since the fuel coming out of the refineries meets the ASTM lubrictiy spec. They may even be saying that the fuel at the retailer is also within spec, although there have been reports of contaminated fuel tanks. (gas in diesel or diesel in gas)

As for your other comments about the metal forging, I have no basis to argue and trust your experience for making a valid point.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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ARIZONA
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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
My assumption based on your comments, and those of others through out this board, is that the fuel suppliers are saying that it is not their problem since the fuel coming out of the refineries meets the ASTM lubrictiy spec. They may even be saying that the fuel at the retailer is also within spec, although there have been reports of contaminated fuel tanks. (gas in diesel or diesel in gas)
As for your other comments about the metal forging, I have no basis to argue and trust your experience for making a valid point.
I think you mean "coming out of the distribution terminals" not "refineries".

I believe you will find that pipeline specs do not require ULSD to meet lubricity specs for transport. Additives for lubricity are added at the distribution terminals.
 

Rod Bearing

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Fort Worth
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They could do that from stations directly. Call me an alarmist all you want. Taking it direct from tanks sounds more like fishing for a result and hoping they can go to NHTSA and say, see it's not the pumps, it's the stupid customer using above B5, additives etc.. and getting out of a recall.
What he said.

Our shop was asked to do something similar for one of the major OTR engine manufacturers.

I declined the offer. They can get fuel at the station.
 

c17chief

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Holy crap.....man do some people have their panties in a bunch around here...throwing constitutional rights and everything around. hahahahahaha. Wow!
 

TwoTone

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What he said.

Our shop was asked to do something similar for one of the major OTR engine manufacturers.

I declined the offer. They can get fuel at the station.
Wait, did we just agree on something? Hmm need to hit the 7-11 and buy some mega million tickets.
 

TwoTone

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......

None of the documents addresses the hpfp problem in the US, so you guys don't have to get excited. But it is a matter of record that the group knows of the US Diesel fuel quality variations, from years back. And if the group knew it, and did nothing to mitigate the pump for the VW application in the US market, you can bet the group leader would have to answer for himself in front of the corporate board in Stuttgart as to why he damaged the Bosch reputation.
I seem to remember at some point some posted that Bosch had recommended a different, more expensive pump and VW choose the one they did.

Maybe someone else remembers where that was. So this may all be on VW, not Bosch. That is why I think VW has an interest in trying to prove it's the customers and nothing else.
 

i64w2gohome

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Richmond, VA
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2011 Golf TDI 6MT
20k A-OK

Has this happened to anyone other than the OP?
At a local dealer today for 20k service. No such request.

Beyond this issue, the service writer and mechanic were very attentive to a number of questions I had. Pulled fuel filter, canister looked great, plan to continue with a low-% biodiesel/45 cetane blend I've been using for the past ~15k miles.

Ready for another road trip!
 

JZoidberg

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Orono, MN
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I seem to remember at some point some posted that Bosch had recommended a different, more expensive pump and VW choose the one they did.

Maybe someone else remembers where that was. So this may all be on VW, not Bosch. That is why I think VW has an interest in trying to prove it's the customers and nothing else.
So this would mean that there is a better pump available that is sold by Bosch?
 

frugality

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Spring Lake, Michigan
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none, 2016 GTI
So this would mean that there is a better pump available that is sold by Bosch?
Could well be. But we bought VW's, not BMW's or Mercedes. We bought at a certain price point. So did VW when they spec'd the fuel pump.

There are ALWAYS more expensive components available. But just like you decide to re-shingle your roof rather than go for the lifetime metal roof -- because it's cheaper -- so VW has to hit a pricepoint that we'll be willing to pay.

I'm considering a new computer. Do I go with a cheaper computer that has a spinning hard drive -- which is more prone to failure -- or do I go with a solid-state drive that's more reliable but costs $500 more? Cost vs. reliability. It's an old dilemma.
 

cardinarky

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Not to ruffle anyone about anything but Bosch probably has at least two or more fuel pump designs available. We supplied 8620 steel to various automotive company specifications for fuel pumps, cam shafts,
driveshafts, and what have you. The companies were Ford, General Motors (Delphi), BMW, Toyota, VW, MB, Ferrari, and others we were not aware of. There were many times when The automotive company design engineer would push his purchasing department for excessively restrictive and totally unnecessary specification expectations. The steel sales department were a house of cards and would cave in to any new demand whether warranted or not. The Japanese car companies were great at this. They would take our steel certifications that we supplied with each shipment of steel and when they had accumulated enough data points they would do a population bell curve to see what our production capabilities were. Of course they would go to the high side of "+2 sigma" to write their specification requirements, thereby pushing our production and sometimes internal scrap numbers to unreasonable areas.
Thye did this because they could, not because they needed to.
We were talking to Navistar one day and asked them what they considered the life expectancy of our steel to be considering following forging, normalizing, and machining would be. We were shocked to hear that there was no part in the truck that should not exceed 1,000,000 miles as long as proper preventative maintenance was done on the equipment.
I'm sure VW could have received a better fuel pump but they would have had to pay more for it. It certainly would have been better to go that route than be on the road we are today.
 

JZoidberg

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The reason I asked was that if there is a better pump and depending on the price point. Could someone be proactive and just "upgrade" the pump? When the warranty is up wouldn't this be an option for those seeking peace of mind. I think it would be the same as installing a bigger pump to accommodate bigger injectors an a gasser.
 

TwoTone

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The reason I asked was that if there is a better pump and depending on the price point. Could someone be proactive and just "upgrade" the pump? When the warranty is up wouldn't this be an option for those seeking peace of mind. I think it would be the same as installing a bigger pump to accommodate bigger injectors an a gasser.
If there is.

I doubt the 2 pumps are the same exact design, just one being better.
VW designed the engine to mate to the pump they picked. The 'better' one is most likely a completely different design.
 

cardinarky

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The first thing in this entire scenario is the manufacturer has to believe he has a problem that is of his making.

You could improve the existing pump simply by changing the physical properties of the materials it is composed of.
For example, if the steel in the pump is 8600 series, you could adjuist the chemical composition and subsequent heat treatment parameters and result in a different grain structure which would increase hardness. You could do an anneal on the finished components in an atmosphere controlled furnace with a gas such as Nitrogen. This also would result in a harder and therefore stronger surface material.
This is how cam lobes are harder than the sections of the shaft that do not come in contact with the valve lifter components. The cam is machined, and those parts that are not required to be of significantly greater surface hardness to avoid wear are coated with a sealant that will not allow nitrogen gas to penetrate the surface. The cam lobes are left exposed and the cam is held in an annealing furnace at a proprietary temperature and the nitrogen penetrates the steel and affects the grain size to a particular depth. When done, the cam is washed to remove the sealant and the lobes ar polished lightly and you have a unit to meet your wear expectations.

There are a lot of things you could do, but you will not do them if the company does not think a real problem exists.
And of course doing any of these things would slightly increase cost.
 

740GLE

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My understanding is the fuel stations order fuel and the distributers add additives, you didn't know you couldn't buy fuel form x station cause they put in X additive. What does it not meet ATSM specs? really?

With additive, you'll be fine
 

specsalot

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VW is just trying to establish that bad fuel is the cause of hpfp failures and not the Bosch hpfp they use. Once a few out of spec fuel samples are gathered VW will then be able to say "Our hpfp performs fine on spec fuel, but fails on out of spec fuel. Fuel quality is out of our control. Warranty denied!"
IMO,this fuel sampling is evidence gathering to be used to in the NHTSA Investigation.
This makes sense. Let's hope that NHTSA points out the reality that other brands don't have these failure rates on their CR engines. It would be great if NHTSA says to VW, "What are you going to do about it?" The fact that this was elevated to an "Engineering Evaluation" is effectively the start of calling BS on the design. Perhaps Bosch needs to transplant a development group in the US - To tailor designs to the fuel here. If I get a package in the mail, I will do a full on evaluation complete with pics, sketches, dimensions for this forum. I am already building opinions, but will let the parts speak for themselves.
 

RHunter

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Mar 16, 2011
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Richmond, VA
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At a local dealer today for 20k service. No such request.
i64, Brown's or West Broad?

I am getting closer and closer to my 10k service, and with the steller service support I got at Karen Radley (that and I need to avoid a trip to Ikea) am thinking about trying W. Broad...
 

texnkeroburner

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Dallas
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Tdi Cup Edition DSG
I'm about to get my 20K service done in Texas and I'll report back if they ask for this "sample."

This is a very interesting topic though, it seems to me that things are really heating up towards some type of final resolution to the fuel bomb, recall or some type of admission that there really was a design defect and a "soft recall."
 

specsalot

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<snip>

Do I sound like I have seen Bosch documents that most of you probably haven't seen? Then yes, that's probably true. Bosch is a huge organization that makes everything from power tools to ABS, and has all kinds of joint ventures, daughter companies, groups and divisions, in all corners of the world. Everyone affiliated with Bosch can go to Bosch Diesel System's internal website and look at the documents that the group chooses to put out for the purpose of general education and awareness.

None of the documents addresses the hpfp problem in the US, so you guys don't have to get excited. But it is a matter of record that the group knows of the US Diesel fuel quality variations, from years back. And if the group knew it, and did nothing to mitigate the pump for the VW application in the US market, you can bet the group leader would have to answer for himself in front of the corporate board in Stuttgart as to why he damaged the Bosch reputation.
We need to remember that Bosch did more than design the HPFP - They design and manufacture the bulk of the engine management system and the injectors. It is very unlikely that these pumps would have ever gotten off test stands if they were failure prone. The open question is what was used in the testing process. Euro spec diesel or US ULSD. Anyone got 300K miles on a TDI that has one of these HPFP's?
 
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