Daimler and Fiat are now in the spot light

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.

ssamalin

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Southern CA
TDI
2015 Mercedes E250 Blutec. Previously: 2006 Jetta TDI
According to the news scroll this morning, Daimler offices have been raided for information on how they have frauded the governments and public over diesel exhaust treatments. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40010111

Also, the US justice department is going after Fiat Chrysler for 104,000 polluting diesels. http://jalopnik.com/why-the-u-s-government-is-suing-fiat-chrysler-over-che-1795483130

Wonder when BMW will get hit with this crap?
Mercedes didn't cheat. They will be cleared. It's time instead to recognize their achievement in clean diesel technology which will progress in 2018. The EPA has already cleared Mercedes of cheating/defeater software. Whatever the German investigators are up to won't change the US.
 

jnecr

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2004
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
2014 BMW 328d
The market for diesels in the US was so small to begin with, I don't see many diesels getting imported from the Germans in the future. It was barely worth their time before, now it's really not going to be worth their time.

We'll see if GM (with the Cruze) or FCA (with the Ram 1500) can sell anything. Unfortunately, I'm not interested in either of those anyways... I would look into a Chevy Colorado diesel, but they're too damn expensive...
 

ssamalin

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Southern CA
TDI
2015 Mercedes E250 Blutec. Previously: 2006 Jetta TDI
I have higher hopes based on MB level of clean diesel research investment and the fact they are working with CARB for 2018. You are otherwise correct, and I'm glad there are plenty of 2014-2016 E250BT available CPO. Also there is US civil class action suit that alleges cheating to be settled as well.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
...Wonder when BMW will get hit with this crap?
Don't think they will, or at least I'd be surprised if they were.

CARB conducted actual testing of in-use cars through remote sensing over the past several years (CARB, "Measuring Real-World Emissions from the On-Road Passenger Fleet," October 2016.) Measurements made from the general gasser population averaged 0.53 g NOx/kg fuel, hybrids averaged 0.3 g NOx/kg fuel, and BMW diesel vehicles (not specified) averaged 0.4 g NOx/kg fuel. MB diesels averaged 1.6 g NOx/kg fuel and VW diesels averaged 18.0 g NOx/kg fuel.

BMW diesels also generally have the lowest NOx emissions in Europe in real-world testing. There's also the fact that a U.S.-spec 2013 BMW X5 35d did very well in the ICCT/WVU study (Thompson) that essentially discovered the VW TDI issue in the first place.

The non-conforming diesels all predate the VW issue formally addressed in September 2015, and were discovered during the additional testing EPA conducted on all diesel vehicles certified in the U.S. All diesel vehicles certified since September 2015 have undergone months of additional testing to preclude any undisclosed emission non-conformity.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...sions-violations-a-deterrent-to-auto-industry
 

ssamalin

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Southern CA
TDI
2015 Mercedes E250 Blutec. Previously: 2006 Jetta TDI
Don't think they will, or at least I'd be surprised if they were.

CARB conducted actual testing of in-use cars through remote sensing over the past several years (CARB, "Measuring Real-World Emissions from the On-Road Passenger Fleet," October 2016.) Measurements made from the general gasser population averaged 0.53 g NOx/kg fuel, hybrids averaged 0.3 g NOx/kg fuel, and BMW diesel vehicles (not specified) averaged 0.4 g NOx/kg fuel. MB diesels averaged 1.6 g NOx/kg fuel and VW diesels averaged 18.0 g NOx/kg fuel.

BMW diesels also generally have the lowest NOx emissions in Europe in real-world testing. There's also the fact that a U.S.-spec 2013 BMW X5 35d did very well in the ICCT/WVU study (Thompson) that essentially discovered the VW TDI issue in the first place.

The non-conforming diesels all predate the VW issue formally addressed in September 2015, and were discovered during the additional testing EPA conducted on all diesel vehicles certified in the U.S. All diesel vehicles certified since September 2015 have undergone months of additional testing to preclude any undisclosed emission non-conformity.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...sions-violations-a-deterrent-to-auto-industry
And the same can be said for Mercedes. How's that GLK250BT wxman?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The only 2017 MB model to get certification is the Sprinter, and they had to jump through hoops to get there. Glad I did not wait and just found a '16, because I'd STILL be waiting.
 

ssamalin

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Southern CA
TDI
2015 Mercedes E250 Blutec. Previously: 2006 Jetta TDI
The only 2017 MB model to get certification is the Sprinter, and they had to jump through hoops to get there. Glad I did not wait and just found a '16, because I'd STILL be waiting.
But EPA found no cheating by Mercedes, no defeater software, and no cheating on their 2014-6 certification. EPA levied no fines or castigated MB in any way.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
It's the most fantastic small SUV ever. Someday I hope to own one.
I agree. Very happy so far. Hope you're correct that Daimler doesn't get caught up in this NOx emissions issue. I've read something about investigators in Europe sharing info they obtained in a raid of Daimler headquarters with U.S. investigators.

It may be too late to save even small vestiges of LD diesels in the U.S., but it seems to be quite clear that they can meet the most stringent NOx emission standards not only in the certification process, but in real-world testing. A paper published just last week (Anenberg et al., "Impacts and mitigation of excess diesel-related NOx emissions in 11 major vehicle markets." Nature 545, 467–471 (25 May 2017), https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v545/n7655/full/nature22086.html ) includes a graphic showing near-zero NOx emissions in real-world testing:





Note the "U.S. Tier 3" bar in the graphic (Figure 1a). Real-world NOx emissions essentially indistinguishable from the Tier 3 limit, which appears to be T3B30, equivalent to T2B2.

Full paper is paywalled so the exact methodology is not know as to how the real-world measurements were taken. Nevertheless, all diesels certified in the U.S. since September 2015 truly have near-zero NOx emissions (all other regulated emissions have already been shown to be near zero.)
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
But EPA found no cheating by Mercedes, no defeater software, and no cheating on their 2014-6 certification. EPA levied no fines or castigated MB in any way.
Evidently that is not good enough for the European regulators.
 

chucky2

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Location
Chicagoland, IL USA
TDI
Ford Ranger FX4 Level II
snip
It may be too late to save even small vestiges of LD diesels in the U.S., but it seems to be quite clear that they can meet the most stringent NOx emission standards not only in the certification process, but in real-world testing. A paper published just last week (Anenberg et al., "Impacts and mitigation of excess diesel-related NOx emissions in 11 major vehicle markets." Nature 545, 467–471 (25 May 2017), https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v545/n7655/full/nature22086.html ) includes a graphic showing near-zero NOx emissions in real-world testing:

snip
I'd love for them to include like model Ford Ecoboost testing (as close to same vehicle performance level as possible), same same GM, same same etc. for NOx and PM (not just 2.5, the Ultrafine as well). They're so up in arms about the diesels, lets see how these DI gassers everyone is using compare, along with the Hybrids.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
I'd love for them to include like model Ford Ecoboost testing (as close to same vehicle performance level as possible), same same GM, same same etc. for NOx and PM (not just 2.5, the Ultrafine as well). They're so up in arms about the diesels, lets see how these DI gassers everyone is using compare, along with the Hybrids.
I agree, and I think these tests are remiss in not testing gasoline cars, and the other regulated emissions for that matter. NOx is NOT the only regulated emission.

As for PM from gassers (GDI), did you see this?

…Swiss researchers have concluded that some GDI engines emit just as many soot particles as unfiltered diesel cars did in the past….

…The results were sobering: every tested gasoline car emitted ten to 100 times more fine soot particles than the diesel Peugeot. Under the microscope, the particles from the gasoline engines were similar in size to the soot particles that had given diesel a bad name: primary particles measuring ten to 20 nanometers in size, which congregate into particle agglomerates measuring 80 to 100 nanometers before leaving the exhaust….

...the particles are not the only problem, as Heeb is well aware: “Liquid or solid chemical toxins from the combustion process, including polycyclic aromatic compounds, accumulate on the surface of the particles, which can then smuggle these substances into the bloodstream – like a Trojan horse.” Maria Munoz, a colleague of Heeb’s from Empa’s Advanced Analytical Technologies lab, took a closer look at the exhaust emissions from the vehicles tested in the GasOMeP project – and discovered the combustion product benzo(a)pyrene, a known carcinogenic substance also found in cigarette smoke....
https://www.empa.ch/web/s604/soot-particles-from-gdi
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I thought from previous studies that the particulates from the GDI engines were much finer sized than those from the diesels. The smaller particles is supposed to create a larger health risk because they remain airborne and are then inhaled. The larger particles mostly fall to the earth.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
I thought from previous studies that the particulates from the GDI engines were much finer sized than those from the diesels. The smaller particles is supposed to create a larger health risk because they remain airborne and are then inhaled. The larger particles mostly fall to the earth.
Yes, which is why GDI cars are still able to meet the current PM mass regulatory limit while having particle numbers equal to diesels without filters, which generally cannot meet the PM mass limit. Smaller particles have less mass.

It does seems likely though that GDI will have a problem meeting the eventual Tier 3 PM mass limit of 3 mg/mile without a filter.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
That study, however, said that the particles were the same size for the GDI and the older diesel.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
You're correct, but they also talk about "soot" particles. Not sure if that only includes black carbon or if they are loosely using "soot" to include all particulates, e.g., organic carbon.
 

chucky2

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Location
Chicagoland, IL USA
TDI
Ford Ranger FX4 Level II
I agree, and I think these tests are remiss in not testing gasoline cars, and the other regulated emissions for that matter. NOx is NOT the only regulated emission.

As for PM from gassers (GDI), did you see this?



https://www.empa.ch/web/s604/soot-particles-from-gdi
I had not seen that, no, so thanks for the link!

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, however, when something smells like CARB - whose head has clear electrification goals - being **** with NOx and PM to target high mpg diesels and then magically not actually holding GDI's feet to the fire, it ceases in my mind to be a theory and more like Reality.

If the general public can look at Reality tests like you linked to above (and there have been others like it in the past, especially before LEV III where they could have put in at least port fueled levels of particulate limits if they're so crazy concerned about PM) and conclude that we should also be testing the GDI and Hybrid vehicles during this diesel regs cheating fiasco, then you know the EPA and most especially CARB knew it should be done before us. So then the question becomes, since they knew (it's very implausible to think they didn't, if they are, they are completely inept and thus not really needed in this light duty regard - what is the point of having them?), why didn't they test GDI and Hybrid when they tested the diesels?

Personally, I think the answer is: They want GDI because of the perceived efficiency bump (that the manufacturers get a HP/torque/marketing bump as compromise), and they're willing to tide that until their EV end goal can be actually realized. If they actually looked at emissions in a fair light, Clean Diesel (something like EU-V or EU-V+) w/ DPF would be just fine, and return very good mpg. So good, that it'd surely F up their EV plans...and they just can't have that. So we get stuck with GDI, instead of a sane CD, until we can get EV we can live with. Thanks CARB! :mad:
 

ssamalin

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Southern CA
TDI
2015 Mercedes E250 Blutec. Previously: 2006 Jetta TDI
wxman said current technology can meet all CARB requirements I think, such as how Cruise and BMW do, so I don't think CARB is making it unreasonably hard. They should be pro clean air above all, so yea they should be banning all dirty cars including GDI if they are dirty. But CARB has made diesel clean, I don't blame them because it's been a long hard job, but job well done, CARB included.
 

chucky2

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Location
Chicagoland, IL USA
TDI
Ford Ranger FX4 Level II
Two things:

1) At some point the vehicles become clean enough and efforts need to be focused on other more polluting sources. Jacking up the cost of vehicles, while limiting their capability, to make them output cleaner air than ambient in the quest for agency justification and to reach the personal political goal of EV isn't the answer. It shouldn't be allowed to be the answer. Of course, in Kommiefornia, anything is possible.

2) The point on GDI isn't this is some new revelation that GDI is puking out particulate, it's been a known thing. CARB knows. CARB knew before they drafted LEV III. CARB knew when they finalized LEV III. So ask yourself this: If sabotaging Clean Diesel, and thereby F'ing over about half of the US driving public, because of NOx and PM was so important, how is it possible they actively decided to give GDI a pass and let it continue polluting the same air that dirty Clean Diesel needed to be hamstrung for? They easily could have imposed port injection PM limits and made the GDI vehicles meet those, just like they imposed the same gas regs on Clean Diesel. Probably just an unintentional oversight, eh?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I think it is pitiful how the actual, real world, fuel consumption is also waved to the wind (no pun intended) in giving known gas guzzlers the green light while banning hyper efficient cars that a lot of people want to drive.

If a 2.0L diesel engine is supposed to run "as clean" as a 2.0L gasoline engine, then why isn't the 2.0L gasoline engine expected to get 50 MPG as well instead of the 35 MPG it gets?

This is all irrelevant though, as the planet's population is the ultimate problem, because being human is harmful no matter what. Anyone read the Dan Brown book Inferno? :eek:
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I thought that was his best book but please don't let Tom Hanks do any more movies based on Brown's books!

To put your summation into a different light, I wonder if they have looked at the pollution per quantity of fuel burned per distance? That would give our diesels a huge advantage and perhaps make even CARB support them.
 

chucky2

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Location
Chicagoland, IL USA
TDI
Ford Ranger FX4 Level II
The head of CARB will never do that because she's an EV ****. Nothing is going to be allowed to threaten getting to her goal of EV.

And, Yes, we need an Inferno badly in the world. The insane amount of people is going to literally wreck us long term. People just can't bring themselves to have one pregnancy, they need two, three, five. They're living in the modern burbs/city and not on the 1820's farm and somehow can't understand that they simply don't need more than one - two at the max - kid(s). Politically though, telling minimum half your voting block they need to check their hormones and have one kid instead of the ten their body tells them they want is just not conducive to re-election. There ain't nothing more important to Politicians than re-election; and that goes for directors of large Orgs, like CARB.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
Thanks guys/gals for a great thread!

Sad that the public sees "zero emission" labels on EV's since there is no direct comparison of how much natural gas and coal is used to generate currently available electricity vs. say a clean diesel or a gasser hybrid.

This is a scandal that only people in the media like John Stossel are capable of understanding.

:(
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I was laughing the other day when I got behind a car with the PZEV sticker. How do you have partial zero emissions? It either pollutes or it doesn't.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I was laughing the other day when I got behind a car with the PZEV sticker. How do you have partial zero emissions? It either pollutes or it doesn't.

Yeah, isn't anything that is "not zero" then by default greater than or less than zero? :p Isn't "part of nothing" still, nothing?

I think the PZEV (and ULEV, etc.) ratings are a bit misleading. But consumers are easily drawn in to things like that, all the while ignoring other obvious things.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Just looked on the Chevy website. Looks like Chevy changed their minds again and are only offering the diesel in one trim with your choice of manual or automatic. Diesel engine gives a bump of almost $4000 US without many extras to make you feel like you got any kind of a deal. I was also surprised to see that you could not get the engine block heater with the diesel.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
I'd love for them to include like model Ford Ecoboost testing (as close to same vehicle performance level as possible), same same GM, same same etc. for NOx and PM (not just 2.5, the Ultrafine as well). They're so up in arms about the diesels, lets see how these DI gassers everyone is using compare, along with the Hybrids.
Here's my recent experience with a 2017 BMW X5 35i gasser with 2300 miles on the odometer compared to my 2012 BMW X5 35d at only 158k miles:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=477614

Mmmmm....diesel-licious! :D :) :cool:

ICCT and WVU, please on-road test some DI gassers!
 
Last edited:
Top