Cummins says no biodiesel in 03+ trucks!?

[Lightman]

I'm waiting to hear back from them, but reportedly a few forum members have contacted Cummins regarding biodiesel usage in 2003+ dodge rams. The 2003+ rams have high pressure common rail injection, and cummins claims biodiesel causes 'flocking', and therefore doesn't allow it. I'm not sure what that means, but if anyone wants to comment or attempt an explanation, I'm all ears.

 

[Geordi]

Maybe they mean it "flocks" up their contract agreements with fuel companies that offer high-grade fuel for testing and development, while selling low-grade sludge at the pumps...

Ever notice that the first tank you get (the one from the dealer) seems to have buckets of energy, but that vanishes with the next (and future) tanks? This goes for gasoline too... I wonder exactly what cetane and octane the dealer fuels actually are at... I heard one dealer tell me their gasoline for new cars was actually 98 octane - 93 blended with 50% race gas 104. Hmm. Makes your new-car testing experience a bit more interesting doesn't it?

What if they started blending wiht Methanol? That is like 120 octane, maybe higher. You can't run it pure unless you have an alcohol racer, the stuff burns too fast.

--Jim

 

[highhilltdi]

FWIW, my Ram diesels ('01 Cummins and '03 HO Cummins) have run perfect regardless if I run BP Supreme diesel or the cheapest rock-gut garbage I can find. Never a change in performance, noise, smoke, or mpg. And these rigs are towing 8,000#-16,000# regularly so you'd notice if there was a difference. They just go.

The difference in my TDI is very obvious if I pump in some bottom shelf stuff.

The dealerships I'm familiar with fill-up their cars at the corner station. If you're lucky the jockey will put premium in the cars that require it.

 

[Lightman]

HH have you ever tried bio in the cummins?

 

[Davin]

Has cummins ever officially approved biodiesel in their trucks? I don't think that this is a "new for '03" thing.

 

[BioDiesel]

I met a guy at the CT Solar Fest w/ a Dodge Cummins pickup.
It was the newer re-styled RAM. Maybe '95-2000. He was running biodiesel in it.
FWIR, Cummins hinted at warrantying bd a couple years ago.
In Tickell's "FTFTTFT", he shows that bd meets Cummin's requirements for emergency fuel.

Certainly bd could be added in some small proportion.
But as someone else stated, it would be hard for the manuf. to warrant bd with fuel quality varying soo much.

Jim

 

[wxman]

Davin said:
Has cummins ever officially approved biodiesel in their trucks? I don't think that this is a "new for '03" thing.

Here is Cummins' position on the use of biodesiel:

http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/customerassistance/faq/answers.cfm?uuid=000947AD-64AE-1B8D-BCF080C4A8F00000

According to my '03 Dodge/Cummins owner's manual, biodiesel (along with methanol, ethanol, etc., i.e., anything other than D-1 or D-2 diesel fuel) is neither recommended nor approved for use in the ISBe Cummins "due to lack of adequate testing".

 

[highhilltdi]

Lightman said:
HH have you ever tried bio in the cummins?

Nope. Truck's towing 16,000# on a regular basis and on the road a lot (three months old, 17k miles). Not readily available in my area and big $$ where it is available. Cummins warranty is for 100k miles and I don't think I want to try-out their policy

Have you priced a Cummins block?

 

[Lightman]

Looks like someones scurrd

Cummins statement is that they see no problems with b5 or below, but haven't tested higher blends enough to endorse them. Their only concerns were seals and hoses with high blends.

I posted a few times now about bio on the cummins forums, and a few guys have since tried it after I gave them the biodieselnow distributor link and they realized it was close. One guy was like oh my, theres a b20 pump 4 mins from my house! Lucky guy! They seem to be liking it so far. They said a bit smoother and less knocky idle, other than that they couldn't tell.

 

[highhilltdi]

Lightman said:
Looks like someones scurrd

That's for sure

I can't stomach the cost of these trucks to begin with, let alone paying for a motor prior to extremely high miles. I don't see an issue with running the bio in them, but that would be an excellent excuse to void a warranty for a freak motor grenading.

I'm still considering what to buy for another truck I need, and even going light on the options I can't get much lower than $35,000 for another Dodge. I can save a little going with the Duramax GMC ext. cab, but not sure if it's worth it. The only thing I like slightly better about the GMC is the seats. Several things I don't like about it at all.

How's the E300 been? We had one pass us yesterday and the wife thought she wouldn't mind having one. She's been wanting another around-town car and the last gasser we had barely did better on gas than our Tahoe. I've heard bad stuff about the E class but not sure how much is truthful.

 

[Lightman]

The E has been awesome. They are great cars, I'm not sure what you heard. The w210 e-class has been one of the best sellers mercedes has ever had. Highly recommend a '98 or '99 with the turbo. The '96 and '97 were non turbos and are nice cars but a little slow for my taste...

 

[Lightman]

HighHill - I've recently gotten a lot of ppl on the cummins boards talking about biodiesel and interested, and a few have now tried it! Thats great because as you know, the cummins will burn thru a lot more bio than a TDI! Anyway just FYI, 3 guys with 03's are running b20 and liking it, and one has run b50 or higher since the first fillup, even b100 a few tanks. No probs yet and all smiles, just fyi. Throw in a few gallons for a b10 mix if you're worried. It might just save one more US soldier over there

 

[cevans]

In regards to "flocking":

Flocking is when certain parts of a substance, in this case fuel, bond together, or "flock" together. They then form a sort of slimey and thick glob. Maybe Cummins thinks this: low quality BD, at the high pressure and temperatures of their injection system, might begin to break up and form some type of sludge that will destroy the injection system. I think BioD is still too unregulated for them to say only good quality BD is acceptable. With these two things, they rather say "No BD" and save a few buck on repairs that are manufacturer related then support the alternative fuel lobby.

Does this sound resonable enough?

 

[Lightman]

The flocking thing was a myth/rumor started on the boards. I emailed cummins about it they said they have never said anything about flocking, and the only worry about bio use is possible degradation of seals etc, and not storing over time etc...

 

[Rodg Petersen]

Been using varying amounts of BD in Moby truck for 2 years, probably average about B30. First time I filled up with BD I left the motor running, had about 1/8th of a tank left. You could tell when the BD hit, quieted down some. I'd run B100 in it like the TDI's but at over 2 times the cost and only getting 23 mpg just can't afford it.
Rodg

 

[indigoTDI]

cevans said:
In regards to "flocking":

Flocking is when certain parts of a substance, in this case fuel, bond together, or "flock" together. They then form a sort of slimey and thick glob. Maybe Cummins thinks this: low quality BD, at the high pressure and temperatures of their injection system, might begin to break up and form some type of sludge that will destroy the injection system. I think BioD is still too unregulated for them to say only good quality BD is acceptable. With these two things, they rather say "No BD" and save a few buck on repairs that are manufacturer related then support the alternative fuel lobby.

Does this sound resonable enough?

I'm sure there are other reasons, but this one seems likely...

I think it is because the North American injectors Bosch sells are not BioD ready. The same injectors in Europe are made to be used with BioD. They save a few cents on seals and ship the faulty products to us.

 

[ikendu]

Rodg Petersen said: I'd run B100 in it like the TDI's but at over 2 times the cost and only getting 23 mpg just can't afford it.

Well...you could run B2. B2 runs 1-2% more per gallon than straight diesel but actually improves mileage by 6-13%. You'll have cleaner emissions, longer engine life and save money all at the same time. It's a fuel additive that more than pays for itself!

And...you'll personally contribute to reducing our dependence on foreign oil by 2%. That's good!

 

[indigoTDI]

Lightman said:
Looks like someones scurrd

Cummins statement is that they see no problems with b5 or below, but haven't tested higher blends enough to endorse them. Their only concerns were seals and hoses with high blends.

As per Kelly at the BioDiesel Reaserch lab at the Uof M... Cummins continues to support the use of B5 at this time. Also per Kelly... they believe that VWoA will be approving B20 sometime here in the not to distant future.

You never know with VWoa, but one can hope.

 

[Lightman]

I'm setting up the financing today and am ordering my 04 cummins tomorrow(!!). I'll definitely throw at least b5 or b10 in it each tank. Higher blends are gonna just be too expensive at 18mpg...especially with how the prices are being jacked up.

 

[highhilltdi]

What're your reasons for ordering an '04? From what I've gathered the only change is the rear headrests and I've been told there will be no rebates on the '04's (at least in my region initially). I'm still on the fence as to what to buy, plus waiting on a business deal to close which will help determine what I really need. I'm hoping there is still some inventory left from '03.

 

[Lightman]

I'm buying an 04 because I dont want the extra year of depreciation the 03's already have, which negates any rebates they may have(currently 2500). The 04 has lost the cheesy fake woodgrain in favor of some sportier brushed aluminum of some sort, different front grille and body side moldings, gps nav available(dvd), and 48RE for 04 is beefed up even more, and exhaust brake compatible. Lastly and most importantly , I've done some exhaustive searching, and can't find an 03 with the exact options I want.

 

[TDIwise]

Hope you enjoy the Cummins. I've been using B10 to B20 in my 02 Duramax for the past 1.5 yrs without problems. The Jetta gets B40-B60 in the summer and B20 in the winters. I agree with the extra cost being a factor in the trucks, but I'm also a little concerned with running higher concentrations in the high pressure common rail systems.

 

[highhilltdi]

Lightman said:
I'm buying an 04 because I dont want the extra year of depreciation the 03's already have, which negates any rebates they may have(currently 2500). The 04 has lost the cheesy fake woodgrain in favor of some sportier brushed aluminum of some sort, different front grille and body side moldings, gps nav available(dvd), and 48RE for 04 is beefed up even more, and exhaust brake compatible. Lastly and most importantly , I've done some exhaustive searching, and can't find an 03 with the exact options I want.

Depreciation on a diesel pickup? Krike, you haven't looked at used trucks lately have you?

If this business deal goes through, I'll need to buy yet another truck in addition to the new one I'm shopping for, and I've looked around at used diesels. Even a stripped down work truck with a diesel is outrageous. I agree the $2500 might rival the depreciation for being late in the model year, but the lower cash price will work out better in the long run. Plus I've not seen any pricing on '04's but there is always a bump in sticker price. I'll bet the rebates will be back in a couple months if not sooner. We got $1500 on the 1-ton back in April (plus a $500 farm bureau discount). Did you know about that rebate? Only costs like $50 to join the farm bureau and you can get a $500 rebate.

I wouldn't complain about any improvement to the 48RE as well. Even the Allison tranny is supposed to be spec'd fairly close to what the Duramax is putting out, and somehow I doubt the 48RE is as beefy as that. These new diesels are just torque monsters. I pulled my lightest load sunday (a Bobcat and 18' trailer, about 8,000#) and it was a joke. The guy I was pulling for normally uses a gasser F-250 and he couldn't believe I was pulling hills in 6th gear without slowing down. I was a bit surprised myself, but I'm used to much heavier trailers so I had no clue how it would pull light stuff.

 

[Lightman]

Thats awesome it tows so well. I dont like the cheesy fake woodgrain of the 03 and thats part of the reason right there. The transmission upgrades and a year newer make it worth the difference. I have 04 pricing in my hand and its not really any higher than 03, the overall price of the truck is maybe $300 more. Plus I can get all the options I want.